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The information I have states the range with standard round for the 2S5 is 28.4km and 33km with rocket assisted rounds and a minimum range of 9.1km.
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rtech
jhelb
Morpheus Eberhardt
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GarryB
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d_taddei2
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2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
GarryB- Posts : 40560
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rtech- Posts : 21
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GarryB wrote:The information I have states the range with standard round for the 2S5 is 28.4km and 33km with rocket assisted rounds and a minimum range of 9.1km.
Well my source dated 2001 is quoting 28.4KM with 3OF29, 30.5KM with 3OF59 and 37KM with 3OF60 (which seems to be RAP)
The reason for this improvement in range is said to be improved aerodynamics.
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°18
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:45 am
Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°19
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:49 am
Does anybody have images of the rounds for the 152 mm, 57 cal B-38 guns on Sverdlov?
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°20
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:55 am
Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:For the purpose of comparison, here is an image showing the case sizes for the Msta class of guns—long-range charge, full charge, and reduced charge. Msta-B (2A65) is also shown in the image.
As can be seen the biggest charge is shorter than the projectile.
The case for the 2S5 shown on the previous page is reasonably longer than projectile. Does it also seem to be of a larger diameter than the charges for 2S19?
rtech- Posts : 21
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Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.
Well i suspect that those figures are for best case scenario but flatout lie no.
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°22
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:31 pm
rtech wrote:Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.
Well i suspect that those figures are for best case scenario but flatout lie no.
What I meant was that these range values for 2S5 are a lot less than their true values, which are much higher.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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rtech wrote:Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.
Well i suspect that those figures are for best case scenario but flatout lie no.
Generally true.
Ofc a common trope on this forum has been "export/published figures are all wrong, the Russian equivalents have magically massively better performance across the board!".
That is occasionally true, but far from always.
There is vast Russian language literature on Soviet artillery systems, and there is no reason not to trust the verifiable numbers that appear in said literature.
rtech- Posts : 21
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TR1 wrote:rtech wrote:Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Guys, the published range data is best to be ignored. They have no relationship to reality.
Well i suspect that those figures are for best case scenario but flatout lie no.
Generally true.
Ofc a common trope on this forum has been "export/published figures are all wrong, the Russian equivalents have magically massively better performance across the board!".
That is occasionally true, but far from always.
There is vast Russian language literature on Soviet artillery systems, and there is no reason not to trust the verifiable numbers that appear in said literature.
Across the board is silly but theres no shame in 30.5km figure. G6 has 30km with conventional shell. And conventional shells are most useful since ERFB BB all have rather big accuracy disadvantages.
Giatsint-b a 1970s howitzer is as good as latest from west in most useful scenarios.
For guided/corrected rounds in 30km+ there is Coalitsiya shaping up...
Werewolf- Posts : 5931
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That is why they develope RAP rounds anyway, someone mentioned there are RAP rounds for 80km range for some western howitzer.
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°26
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Fri May 01, 2015 6:47 am
rtech wrote:Across the board is silly but theres no shame in 30.5km figure. G6 has 30km with conventional shell. And conventional shells are most useful since ERFB BB all have rather big accuracy disadvantages.
Giatsint is was an army level gun and now is a gun of the operational command; it's range wouldn't be in the same class as that of a divisional piece or a brigade level piece.
This is a very fundamental concept in military.
To say Giatsint has the same range as Msta (formerly divisional now brigade level), or anywhere in the same ball park, is like saying that Msta has the same range as the 120 mm mortar (battalion level).
Giatsint-b a 1970s howitzer is as good as latest from west in most useful scenarios.
Giatsint is not a howitzer. It is a gun.
The performance levels that you have posted is lower than that for M-46, its predecessor.
rtech- Posts : 21
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Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:rtech wrote:Across the board is silly but theres no shame in 30.5km figure. G6 has 30km with conventional shell. And conventional shells are most useful since ERFB BB all have rather big accuracy disadvantages.
Giatsint is was an army level gun and now is a gun of the operational command; it's range wouldn't be in the same class as that of a divisional piece or a brigade level piece.
This is a very fundamental concept in military.
To say Giatsint has the same range as Msta (formerly divisional now brigade level), or anywhere in the same ball park, is like saying that Msta has the same range as the 120 mm mortar (battalion level).
Giatsint-b a 1970s howitzer is as good as latest from west in most useful scenarios.
Giatsint is not a howitzer. It is a gun.
The performance levels that you have posted is lower than that for M-46, its predecessor.
Yeah its a gun
You seem to know what is Giatsints range so why dont you post it together with source rounds used and we can solve this argument
According to my source range figures for Msta are: 24.7 HE/OF convetional 29 HE/OF with BB generator
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°28
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Fri May 01, 2015 9:26 pm
rtech wrote:
You seem to know what is Giatsints range so why dont you post it together with source rounds used and we can solve this argument
What do you mean by "source"? Somebody's word?
I know what Giatsint's range is not, a lot more than knowing what its range is.
But I'll do some calculations/estimations of its minimum maximum range and post it here.
According to my source range figures for Msta are: 24.7 HE/OF convetional 29 HE/OF with BB generator
Are you referring to 3OF45 and 3OF61 projectiles, both with long-range charges?
What is your "source"? Russia's arms catalog? Or somebody who is quoting it?
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°29
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Sat May 02, 2015 12:07 am
Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
As can be seen the biggest charge is shorter than the projectile.
The case for the 2S5 shown on the previous page is reasonably longer than projectile. Does it also seem to be of a larger diameter than the charges for 2S19?
Does anyone also see some slight bottle-necking of the case?
GarryB- Posts : 40560
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Well my source dated 2001 is quoting 28.4KM with 3OF29, 30.5KM with 3OF59 and 37KM with 3OF60 (which seems to be RAP)
The reason for this improvement in range is said to be improved aerodynamics.
My information is from "Russias Arms 2001-2002" which basically comes from the makers of the weapons and equipment. It has separate entries for the different 152mm guns and ammo and describes the 30F59 HeFRAG round in the 2S5 and towed 2A36 guns as having a range of 30.5km.
The only round with a range of 37km in the book is the 30F43 round from the 203mm 2S7 gun and the range is given and 37.4km.
Was your source Russian/Soviet, or was it a western estimate... in my experience western estimates change depending upon the agenda... ie all Soviet artillery has enormous range... we need new guns/ammo, or we just got new guns and their stuff is terribly short ranged in comparison...
The case for the 2S5 shown on the previous page is reasonably longer than projectile. Does it also seem to be of a larger diameter than the charges for 2S19?
That image is interesting because most of the pictures I have of 152mm propellent charges look like the ones at the top of this page, not the brass cased shell on the previous page.
Ofc a common trope on this forum has been "export/published figures are all wrong, the Russian equivalents have magically massively better performance across the board!".
That is occasionally true, but far from always.
It is a Russian law that where possible exported items don't have the same performance as domestic products... exceptions were certainly made in the last decade and a half where the Su-30MKI was clearly superior to the Su-27s and Su-27SMs in Russian AF service, but as a general rule it holds true.
What is your "source"? Russia's arms catalog? Or somebody who is quoting it?
RA is based on makers figures and I find more useful than even the best estimate/guess from Janes.
rtech- Posts : 21
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Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:rtech wrote:
You seem to know what is Giatsints range so why dont you post it together with source rounds used and we can solve this argument
What do you mean by "source"? Somebody's word?
I know what Giatsint's range is not, a lot more than knowing what its range is.
But I'll do some calculations/estimations of its minimum maximum range and post it here.
According to my source range figures for Msta are: 24.7 HE/OF convetional 29 HE/OF with BB generator
Are you referring to 3OF45 and 3OF61 projectiles, both with long-range charges?
What is your "source"? Russia's arms catalog? Or somebody who is quoting it?
For MSTA unfortunately catalog doesnt list which rounds are used.
In my very first post in this topic i am quoting MOTOVILIKHA and the new ammo with 30.5km range is coming from:
Russia's Arms and Technologies. The XXI Century Encyclopedia. Rocket and Artillery armament of the ground forces. Editor in chief Nikolay Spassky. Its dual language RUS-ENG book
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°32
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Sat May 02, 2015 5:53 am
The case for the 2S5 shown on the previous page is reasonably longer than projectile. Does it also seem to be of a larger diameter than the charges for 2S19?
That image is interesting because most of the pictures I have of 152mm propellent charges look like the ones at the top of this page, not the brass cased shell on the previous page.
The brass case is the large case for 2S5; second image I posted shows the 3OF45 projectile with charges for 2S19 and 2A65.
Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat May 02, 2015 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Morpheus Eberhardt- Posts : 1925
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- Post n°33
Re: 2S5 Giatsint-S/2A36 Giatsint-B: Views and uses
Morpheus Eberhardt Sat May 02, 2015 6:23 am
rtech wrote:Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Are you referring to 3OF45 and 3OF61 projectiles, both with long-range charges?
For MSTA unfortunately catalog doesnt list which rounds are used.
In my very first post in this topic i am quoting MOTOVILIKHA and the new ammo with 30.5km range is coming from:
Russia's Arms and Technologies. The XXI Century Encyclopedia. Rocket and Artillery armament of the ground forces. Editor in chief Nikolay Spassky. Its dual language RUS-ENG book
Russia's Arm Catalog changed its title in its later editions to those that you referred to.
According to Russia's Arm Catalog, the ranges that you listed correspond to the 3OF45 and 3OF61.
But what I am saying is that these numbers aren't related to reality, especially for 2S5, not even for the export versions.
On another note, the 1992 export prices were US$1,500,000 for 2S5 and US$1,600,000 for 2S19. Bear in mind that 2S5 is one generation older than 2S19, but in terms of range, 2S5 is one class higher than 2S19.
rtech- Posts : 21
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Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:rtech wrote:Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Are you referring to 3OF45 and 3OF61 projectiles, both with long-range charges?
For MSTA unfortunately catalog doesnt list which rounds are used.
In my very first post in this topic i am quoting MOTOVILIKHA and the new ammo with 30.5km range is coming from:
Russia's Arms and Technologies. The XXI Century Encyclopedia. Rocket and Artillery armament of the ground forces. Editor in chief Nikolay Spassky. Its dual language RUS-ENG book
Russia's Arm Catalog changed title to those that you named in its later editions.
According to Russia's Arm Catalog, the ranges that you listed correspond to the projectiles I listed above.
But what I am saying is that these numbers aren't related to reality, especially for 2S5, not even for the export versions.
On another note, the 1992 export prices were US$1,500,000 for 2S5 and US$1,600,000 for 2S19. Bear in mind that 2S5 is one generation older than 2S19 but one range class higher than 2S19.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. I dont like your AIG like insinuations that Russians are lying in their sales brochures.
BTW. Vlad79 is/or was MOTOVILIKHA sales guy so you can ask him about range figures
GarryB- Posts : 40560
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That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. I dont like your AIG like insinuations that Russians are lying in their sales brochures.
the difference is that Morpheus thinks they are under reporting performance and that domestic models out perform exported models.
rtech- Posts : 21
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Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
But what I am saying is that these numbers aren't related to reality, especially for 2S5, not even for the export versions.
There you go its almost like from AIG. Russians lying lying and lying
jhelb- Posts : 1095
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TR1 wrote:There is vast Russian language literature on Soviet artillery systems, and there is no reason not to trust the verifiable numbers that appear in said literature.
TR1, can you please direct me to any of these source/s that you are referring to? Thank You.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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jhelb wrote:TR1 wrote:There is vast Russian language literature on Soviet artillery systems, and there is no reason not to trust the verifiable numbers that appear in said literature.
TR1, can you please direct me to any of these source/s that you are referring to? Thank You.
Just from the top of my head:
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/sovr_sau_01.pdf
If you can read Russian the Russian wiki actually is sourced well.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A15
Most of this stuff isn't secret and by now a large library of good info is available, from articles in serious magazines for example (like Technika and Voroyzhenie")
GarryB- Posts : 40560
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There you go its almost like from AIG. Russians lying lying and lying
Military information is secret... unless you are a potential customer you don't need to know the truth, so why would they publish the precise figures?
jhelb- Posts : 1095
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TR1 wrote:
Just from the top of my head:
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/sovr_sau_01.pdf
If you can read Russian the Russian wiki actually is sourced well.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%D0%A15
Most of this stuff isn't secret and by now a large library of good info is available, from articles in serious magazines for example (like Technika and Voroyzhenie")
Thanks TR1. Appreciate your quick & detailed response