Icebreakers

TR1 wrote:Let's be honest, what warship has the Russian navy gotten without delays in the past 20 years?

The entire purchasing process is pure "marasm".

The Grigorovich seems to be way ahead the others (in comparison) Borei seems to be doing better these days.  They had no problem supplying the Talwar and Improved Kilo to customers.  Maybe it is all about the money not being handled properly.

Grigorovich is WELL past the original timelines. Even the first several ships (no propulsion problems) are well delayed past the 3 years, then 4 years timelines envisaged.

If the trials go well Grigorovich will be in service 5 years after being laid down. Hardly inspiring.

The trend is improving...it's pointless to use the last 2 decades as some sort of measure

Cyberspec wrote:The trend is improving...it's pointless to use the last 2 decades as some sort of measure

Ofc, we should use past 5 years or so.

And they are hardly inspiring, as this thread testifies.
And...every single large surface program as well.

Of course, we have gone from 20 years to 9 for a single submarine. Awesome. Rossiya Rulit!

I think there's little doubt that shipbuilding will accelerate in the coming years. Same process as in the aviation industry except that it's on a bigger scale and more expensive...

____________


Construction of new icebreaker for Russian Navy to start this month - Project 21180 'Ilya Muromets'

Flagship of a new family of naval icebreakers will be laid at the Admiralteyskiye Verfi shipyards in St Petersburg on April 23, a source at the Main Staff of the Russian Navy told TASS on Thursday.

The icebreaker will get the name of The Ilya Muromets after the superman hero of olden Russian legends and will be put on the tables of equipment of the Northern Fleet.

Alexey Rakhmanov, the president of Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation said earlier that construction of a whole family of icebreakers of the type for operations in the Arctic areas was possible in the future.

Project 21180 icebreakers will assist operations of naval ships on ice-covered seas and will help towing maneuvers. They will have water displacement of 6,000 tons, operational sustainability of up to 60 days, and a cruising range of 12,000 miles.

http://thearcticmonitor.org/2015/04/05/construction-of-new-icebreaker-for-russian-navy-to-start-this-month/

The contract for the construction of two icebreakers signed at the Vyborg shipyard

Two multi-purpose diesel-electric icebreaker with a capacity of 22 MW will be built at the Vyborg shipyard (part of United shipbuilding Corporation) by order of LLC Gazprom Neft Novy port.
According to the contract, the vessels will be delivered to the Customer until 2018. The icebreakers will be working on the Arctic terminal of the Novoportovskoye field, located in the West of the Gulf of Ob on the Yamal Peninsula. The main purpose of the courts: icebreaking tankers, assistance during mooring and loading operations, rescue operations, towing vessels, fire fighting operations on liquidation of oil spills.

Ilya Muromets ice-breaker for Russian Navy to be laid down in St. Petersburg

It will be used to provide ice-breaker support, to deploy forces in conditions of heavy ice and to tug warships

ST. PETERSBURG, April 23. /TASS/. The Ilya Muromets diesel-and electric-powered icebreaker, the lead ship of project 21180 for the Russian Navy, will be laid down at St Petersburg’s Admiralteiskie Verfi shipyard on Thursday.

The first auxiliary ship of that type will be built for the Russian Northern Fleet. It will be used to provide ice-breaker support, to deploy forces in conditions of heavy ice and to tug warships.

The Ilya Muromets will have a displaceent of 6,000 tonnes. It will be capable of making a two-month autonomous voyage to a distance of up to 12,000 nautical miles with a crew of 32. The vessel will be capable of moving through 80-centimetre thinck ice.

Earlier, CEO of Russia’s United Ship-building Corporation, Alexei Rakhamnov, said a series of ice-breakers of that type could be built under the programme for the overhaul of Russia’s Arctic auxiliary fleet.

Russia’s Navy Commander Admiral Viktor Chirkov, in turn, said the group of the Russian Navy in the Arctic would receive a universal ship capable of simultaneously performing the functions of an icebreaker, an ocean tug and a patrol ship. "A decision was made to design and build - in the middle-term prospect - a universal ship of a new generation, with possibilities of a fleet tug, icebreaker and patrol ship at the same time," Chirkov said. "This universality will allow the ship to fulfil a broad range of tasks in the Arctic area. We are going to produce the outlines of its design this year.".

The Russian government reduces funding for the construction of nuclear-powered icebreakers

So they reduced budget for 2015 and 2016 but increased it in 2017.....

They need to stop this charade and simply fund it evenly for all the years. This project is pretty important and is the only icebreakers that are going well in development.

Russia's First Series Arctic Icebreaker to Be Laid Down in St. Petersburg

Russia's first series nuclear-powered icebreaker will be laid down in Saint Petersburg on Tuesday, the Baltic Shipyard announced.

ST. PETERSBURG (Sputnik) — The shipyard, part of United Shipbuilding Corporation, signed a $1.68 billion contract on two Project 22220 icebreakers' construction with the State Atomic Energy Corporation Rosatom in May 2014. The icebreakers are due to be put in commission in December 2019 and December 2020, respectively.

"An official ceremony of laying the first batch of the nuclear icebreaker Project 22220 will take place on May 26 at the Baltic Shipyard's 'A' slipway," a statement on the company's website read.

The Baltic Shipyard is currently constructing the project's pilot nuclear icebreaker, laid down on November 5, 2013. The icebreaker dubbed "Arktika" is due to become the world's largest and most potent vessel of this kind.

As per the contract terms, construction of the "Arktika" is due to be completed by December 2017.

The "Iceberg" Central Design Bureau drew the nuclear icebreakers' engineering designs in 2009. Their double-draft design allows usage in Arctic waters as well as estuaries of Polar rivers. The icebreakers are expected to work in the western region of the Arctic, namely the Barents, Pechora and Kara Seas, as well as more shallow waters of the Yenisei and Ob Rivers.

The Project 22220's length is 189.5 yards, its width 37.1 yards and displacement is 33,540 tons. The icebreakers will be fitted with two specifically designed new type nuclear power reactors RITM-200.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150526/1022550503.html#ixzz3bD9tgwUA

George1 wrote:Russia's First Series Arctic Icebreaker to Be Laid Down in St. Petersburg

video

Article and lot's of pictures of the new nuclear icebreaker being built;
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1383384.html

''China Interested in Russian Icebreaker Technology''

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150904/1026595086.html

More Realpolitik:
Ignore the Mistral spectacle (which was going beyond legal sanctions, as it was existing contract),
EU business is very happy to continue engagement with RU industry...

Russian Oil Giant to Order Dutch Icebreakers
The Dutch shipbuilding giant Damen Shipyards Group will work with the Russian oil company Rosneft, supplying it with icebreaking and offshore construction vessels for the Arctic region, CEO Rene Berkvens told Sputnik on Friday.

The company is also providing technology and engineering services for the Zvezda facility in Russia’s Far East, which repairs the submarines in the country’s Pacific Fleet.

F rosneft. They should be spending on their own icebreakers! Why fund a dutch shipyard if you already make your own?

F'in scumbags Rosneft are.  They seem to be extatic to buy foreign, even from the assholes who sanction you and support mongrols calling for Russian blood.

Rosneft should be fined or pay a tarrif so high, it brings in as much as an icebreaker built from Russia would cost.

The Russian government has given them billions tp help Rosneft expand in far east, and yet, they end up purchasing foreign ships?

sepheronx wrote:F rosneft. They should be spending on their own icebreakers! Why fund a dutch shipyard if you already make your own?

F'in scumbags Rosneft are.  They seem to be extatic to buy foreign, even from the assholes who sanction you and support mongrols calling for Russian blood.

Rosneft should be fined or pay a tarrif so high, it brings in as much as an icebreaker built from Russia would cost.

The Russian government has given them billions tp help Rosneft expand in far east, and yet, they end up purchasing foreign ships?

Perhaps it is to do with how quickly they'd like to aquire them? I don't know enough about it, but it looks like Russian shipyards have their work cut out for them at the moment with State orders. Just my 2 cents.

Icebreaker Vladivostok started trials.

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/67696/

sepheronx wrote:F rosneft. They should be spending on their own icebreakers! Why fund a dutch shipyard if you already make your own?

F'in scumbags Rosneft are.  They seem to be extatic to buy foreign, even from the assholes who sanction you and support mongrols calling for Russian blood.

Rosneft should be fined or pay a tarrif so high, it brings in as much as an icebreaker built from Russia would cost.

The Russian government has given them billions tp help Rosneft expand in far east, and yet, they end up purchasing foreign ships?

If every nation in the world refuses imports and focuses only from buying from their own industries where would that get us?

It's called mercantilism/state protectionism and like everything - too much of it is actually destructive and self-defeating in the long term, and could lead to inefficiency, economic (or actual) warfare and oversupply - especially if everyone starts doing it but not only. This was all pretty much proven by Adam Smith back in the 1700s. It's not a new policy either, in various forms its been around the Middle Ages. It should be used moderately and as/when needed.
Russia is already doing rather too much of it and I hope that after 2020 its industries will be secure and strong enough for it to move to more liberal policies.

Rosneft is a company that's concerned about its efficiency of operations and profit margins, and it has every right to take the decisions that it feels will go towards increasing those two factors the most.
If it was artificially restricted by the Russian government to buying only from Russian shipyards; then those shipyards might get the money, but then Rosneft would get a ship that wasn't optimal for the task, and its operations wouldn't be as efficient and its profits wouldn't be as high as they might otherwise be.

If Rosneft then goes out of business due to that - who will be left to order any icebreakers at all?

Another point is that Russian shipyards will be less motivated to invest into R&D if they knew that they were all but guaranteed new contracts. They must be made to feel competition else they will stagnate. This is another danger of protectionism.

flamming_python wrote:

sepheronx wrote:F rosneft. They should be spending on their own icebreakers! Why fund a dutch shipyard if you already make your own?

F'in scumbags Rosneft are.  They seem to be extatic to buy foreign, even from the assholes who sanction you and support mongrols calling for Russian blood.

Rosneft should be fined or pay a tarrif so high, it brings in as much as an icebreaker built from Russia would cost.

The Russian government has given them billions tp help Rosneft expand in far east, and yet, they end up purchasing foreign ships?

If every nation in the world refuses imports and focuses only from buying from their own industries where would that get us?

It's called mercantilism/state protectionism and like everything - too much of it is actually destructive and self-defeating in the long term, and could lead to inefficiency, economic (or actual) warfare and oversupply - especially if everyone starts doing it but not only. This was all pretty much proven by Adam Smith back in the 1700s. It's not a new policy either, in various forms its been around the Middle Ages. It should be used moderately and as/when needed.
Russia is already doing rather too much of it and I hope that after 2020 its industries will be secure and strong enough for it to move to more liberal policies.

Rosneft is a company that's concerned about its efficiency of operations and profit margins, and it has every right to take the decisions that it feels will go towards increasing those two factors the most.
If it was artificially restricted by the Russian government to buying only from Russian shipyards; then those shipyards might get the money, but then Rosneft would get a ship that wasn't optimal for the task, and its operations wouldn't be as efficient and its profits wouldn't be as high as they might otherwise be.

If Rosneft then goes out of business due to that - who will be left to order any icebreakers at all?

Another point is that Russian shipyards will be less motivated to invest into R&D if they knew that they were all but guaranteed new contracts. They must be made to feel competition else they will stagnate. This is another danger of protectionism.

Others who are buying Russian icebreakers would be left.  There is clearly no incentive I can think of regarding the move.  As well, your government gave them tens of billions to help the company expand.  And then they decide to spend on foreign icebreakers, when they could buy domestic?  Smartest move Rosneft made was the plan for ordering $30+B from Zvezd shipyard.  But, that doesn't mean this move would be good.  I would look at Rosneft and say that for the cost of these icebreakers they are buying from outside rather than domestically, then Rosneft should give back to the government that same amount, so they can then put towards further orders of icebreakers for the Arctic military facilities/towns and shipping.

My complaint is mainly that Rosneft requested money from the Fed gov reserves (over $20B) and they go and do this? Especially from a nation whom is quite hostile to Russia currently due to politics?  If the dutch are investing further into Zvezda shipyard, good.  But we really need to see the amount spent.

Guys you are really going at it over nothing. Not every shipyard is capable of building icebreakers and as far as I can tell all Russian ones are either stocked with orders already or will be getting orders from the Navy (priority work) so it will be a while until capacities clear up.

Rosneft probably needed the ships ASAP and most likely smaller ones than what Russia specializes in building.

And if Dutch really invested in Zvezda then this order makes perfect sense.

Besides, Rosneft did order huge number of local ships just recently...

sepheronx wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

sepheronx wrote:F rosneft. They should be spending on their own icebreakers! Why fund a dutch shipyard if you already make your own?

F'in scumbags Rosneft are.  They seem to be extatic to buy foreign, even from the assholes who sanction you and support mongrols calling for Russian blood.

Rosneft should be fined or pay a tarrif so high, it brings in as much as an icebreaker built from Russia would cost.

The Russian government has given them billions tp help Rosneft expand in far east, and yet, they end up purchasing foreign ships?

If every nation in the world refuses imports and focuses only from buying from their own industries where would that get us?

It's called mercantilism/state protectionism and like everything - too much of it is actually destructive and self-defeating in the long term, and could lead to inefficiency, economic (or actual) warfare and oversupply - especially if everyone starts doing it but not only. This was all pretty much proven by Adam Smith back in the 1700s. It's not a new policy either, in various forms its been around the Middle Ages. It should be used moderately and as/when needed.
Russia is already doing rather too much of it and I hope that after 2020 its industries will be secure and strong enough for it to move to more liberal policies.

Rosneft is a company that's concerned about its efficiency of operations and profit margins, and it has every right to take the decisions that it feels will go towards increasing those two factors the most.
If it was artificially restricted by the Russian government to buying only from Russian shipyards; then those shipyards might get the money, but then Rosneft would get a ship that wasn't optimal for the task, and its operations wouldn't be as efficient and its profits wouldn't be as high as they might otherwise be.

If Rosneft then goes out of business due to that - who will be left to order any icebreakers at all?

Another point is that Russian shipyards will be less motivated to invest into R&D if they knew that they were all but guaranteed new contracts. They must be made to feel competition else they will stagnate. This is another danger of protectionism.

Others who are buying Russian icebreakers would be left.  There is clearly no incentive I can think of regarding the move.  As well, your government gave them tens of billions to help the company expand.  And then they decide to spend on foreign icebreakers, when they could buy domestic?  Smartest move Rosneft made was the plan for ordering $30+B from Zvezd shipyard.  But, that doesn't mean this move would be good.  I would look at Rosneft and say that for the cost of these icebreakers they are buying from outside rather than domestically, then Rosneft should give back to the government that same amount, so they can then put towards further orders of icebreakers for the Arctic military facilities/towns and shipping.

My complaint is mainly that Rosneft requested money from the Fed gov reserves (over $20B) and they go and do this? Especially from a nation whom is quite hostile to Russia currently due to politics?  If the dutch are investing further into Zvezda shipyard, good.  But we really need to see the amount spent.

You're missing the point.

What is more important - the efficiency of Rosneft; a huge multinational employing tens of thousands of people; or a few extra orders for domestic shipyards?

Because you can only have one or the other.

I can assure you that that Dutch Shell, Chevron, etc... won't have the same artificial limitations put on them.

Corporations should be to pick and choose as they see fit.

If the Russian government wants to support domestic shipbuilders - it has its own budget and ship needs for that.

JohninMK wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

You're missing the point.

What is more important - the efficiency of Rosneft; a huge multinational employing tens of thousands of people; or a few extra orders for domestic shipyards?

Because you can only have one or the other.

I can assure you that that Dutch Shell, Chevron, etc... won't have the same artificial limitations put on them.

Corporations should be to pick and choose as they see fit.

If the Russian government wants to support domestic shipbuilders - it has its own budget and ship needs for that.

I am sure the Rosneft would have loved buying a total Russian icebreaker fleet but there were clearly reasons why they couldn't. Situations like this happen all around the world, like China buying dredgers from Holland or the Royal Navy buying replenishment ships in S Korea. Can you imagine how the latter went down in the UK once the largest shipbuilding nation?

Its just what happens in today's interconnected and specialised world. Mind you, its an interesting contract given the sanctions on Russia.

I'm sure that if Rosneft insists on buying icebreakers in Holland, a country whose products have become approximately x1.5 as expensive as they were before due to the collapse of the rouble - than it has its reasons for it; namely technology transfer, investment agreements or just those ships being able to do something that their competitors can't and which Rosneft needs.

The other possibility is corruption/a kickback aggreement, but that would be setting things up for a monstrous high-profile scandal so I don't think that's the case.

Russia Needs at Least 5 Nuclear-Powered Icebreakers for Arctic Exploration

Russia would require at least five Project 22220 nuclear-powered icebreakers for Arctic exploration, the deputy head for development of state company Atomflot, an icebreaker service and maintenance company, said Thursday.

ST. PETERSBURG (Sputnik) — Project 22220 refers to a new type of nuclear-powered icebreaker Russia is currently constructing. The new vessels will be able to escort convoys in the Arctic, breaking ice up to three meters (some 10 feet) thick. Currently there are three ships in the project.

"Life itself will push us for creation of new nuclear-powered icebreakers. We believe that there should not be less than five [ships] in the project," Stanislav Golovinsky told RIA Novosti.

A Project 22220 icebreaker is 189.5 yards long and 37.1 yards wide. The ship displaces 33,540 metric tons. The icebreakers are fitted with two specifically designed RITM-200 nuclear-power reactors.

The Arctic shelf is believed to hold huge amounts of oil and natural gas. Russia has been laying claims to deposits within its offshore border areas, as have the United States, Canada, Norway and Denmark.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150917/1027142088.html#ixzz3m2RygPo0

New icebreaker Vladivostok