How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

PLEASE NOTE- This thread is not another typical Versus thread .This thread consists of 2 parts

Part I- depicts how PAK-FA would counter F22 in future aerial warfare.?

Part II- explains what  PAK-FA need to have or improve in order to counter F22 even further.?


PART-I

How would PAK-FA would counter F22 in future aerial warfare?


I)OLS-50 IRST (QWIP)

Russian OLS -50 IRST is a farcry from previous shorter wavelength Irst as it can detect IR signatures of F22 or any plane far away from previous shorter wavelength IRST


the drawbacks of previous gen IRST were
1)incapable of detection of IR signatures greater than 100km

2)not reliable in adverse climate conditions

but things would change in newer longer wavelength QWIP IRST which have somehow reduce these 2 handicaps


one must understand no matter how powerful advanced Radar you may have there are 2 handicaps when you use it agaisnt F22

1) no radar till date now has detected F22 from greater than 70-80 km meanwhile pak fa IRST OLS 50 can detect a F22  from greater than 80 km
So in case of stealth targets QWIP IRST is more effective than using radar alone

2)To use radar agaisnt F22 is a suicide in case for adversary pilots as F22 ALR -94 system can detect it's adversary
radar whether it's AESA or PESA radar even from greater distance than it's adversary radar could detect F22 .
Not only that it can cue it's radar guided missiles without turning on it's own AESA radar for stealth reasons

So Pak fa OLS -50 IRST can give passive detection advantage without having the risk of being intercepted meanwhile F22 lacks
IRST


Air Combat: Russia?s PAK-FA versus the F-22 and F-35



II)More weapon carriage capabilty

PAKFA has 4 internal weapon bay in the center fuselarge & 2 side internal weapon bay capabilty

Pak fa can carry atbest 8 air to air radar guided missile R 77 derivatives with foldable fins in the 4 weapon bays in center
fuselarge {2 in each weapon bay} & would carry 2 short range IR guided missile in it's side weapon bay (1 in each bay)

meanwhile F22 can carry at best 6 air to air radar guided missile in it's central fuselarge weapon bay  & 2 short range IR guided missile

SO in total PAK FA has 10 air to air weapons meanwhile F 22 has 8 air to air weapon

why it is going to be crucial??

ans- in BVR warfare kill probability for radar guided missile against 5th gen fighter with stealth & superior ECCM capabi;lty would be far less compare that Kill probabilty  against a 4th gen fighter .So you must have more no of missiles in your kitty to survive BVR warfare .


You can add extra missiles externally but it would compromise stealth & would give edge to your adversary.

III)Innovative X band + L band Aesa radar combination

No doubt F22's aesa radar is technologically more advanced than russian Aesa radar but Russians have did one innovative thing to counter F22 in radar department
that is having L band AESA radar in it's Levcons/LERX which is known to be highly effective agaisnt stealth targets in comparision to X band aesa radar .

Not only that PAK-FA has small X-band radar on its tail which provides true 360 degree coverage if we add every radar in PAK-FA

Assessing the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array

So PAK FA would have extra L band wavelength aesa radar along with X band aesa radar with 360 degree coverage in comparision to F22 having only X band aesa radar.




IV)More manuveurabilty than F22

The Russians can compromise on stealth but they would never compromise on manuveurability .Pak fa's aerodynamic design thanks to Levcons/LERX  with 3 AXIS TVC engines gives PAKFA an edge in manuveuarabilty against F22 which has 2 AXIS TVC .

Why is it going to be crucial in future warfare ?

ans-{IF u omit AWACS from the scenario}
BVR warfare's would be less effective against 5th gen fighters vs 5th gen fighter in comparision to 5th Gen vs 4th or 4.5 gen
fighter  so they would resort to Within visual range warfare at the end .Here manuveurabilty of a plane would count to survive in a WVBR dogfight scenario. Pak fa is going to be a better dog fighter than F22 .

Not only that F22 recent upgrades have omitted the induction of HMD ,hence the Raptor will be unable to use the off-boresite and lock-on after launch features of its missiles
Source
F-22 helmet-display demonstration casualty of sequestration

Without the helmet, Raptor pilots must point their missile’s seeker at the hostile aircraft to verify the missile is locked on the right target. The helmet would enable the pilot to slave the seeker to their line of sight, hence locking on by simply looking at the target, without having to turn the aircraft.
Source
First Raptor Supersonic AIM-9X Launch - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News
But i dont think HMD going to be a serious problem for F 22 as AIM 9X block 2 has LOAL capabilty & High OFF bore sight launch
capabilty but yes it would have done the pilot job little easiear.


PART II



what  PAK-FA need to have or improve in order to counter F22 even further.?


I) Stealth

Surely F 22 is the king of stealth jets right now no doubt about it &  1st point the PAK fa critics  would howl upon is that it is not stealthy as F22 & PAK fa would be detected at much greater range by F22 than Pak fa would have detected F22 by himself.

Yes that's true in terms of stealth it is going to be very difficult for Pakfa to compete with F22 & one has to admit  Pak-fa would be less stealthy than F22 no matter how much the Russians boast of .

Right now PAKFA 's frontal radar cross section is indeed stealthy that is admitted by many experts which is the most important aspect for any stealth plane.
But one must understand that Russians have just introduced Pakfa protypes only we have to wait for final version



BTW there was a source which claims Pak -Fa to have  RCS of 0.5 m2  ,but that is referring only for protypes not for production models .Now a person with simple common sense should understand why would a country invest billion of dollars on
a stealth plane which has RCS 0.5 m2  meanwhile a decent 4th or 4.5 gen fighters like Typhoon , Rafale boast to have less than RCS of 1m2.

Meanwhile Russians have achieved great strides in stealth technology
1) Highly improved Ram coating which the russians have known to Use in MIG 29 k which have reduced the RCS of that plane 30 times

Recent disclosures include a coating which reduced the radar signature of the engine inlet tunnels in the Su-35BM Flanker by a factor of 30 in the centimetre radar band.
SOURCE
When America?s Stealth Monopoly Ends, What's Next?

2)Composite fan blades for engines

3)even plasma stealth ( though controversial)

4)improvement in composite concentration in planes








II) RWR system comparable to F 22' ALR 94 system
We until now dont know anything about PAK FA RWR system yet . Though some analsyst say it is going to be upgraded version of
RWR system installed in SU 35M.But Inorder to counter F22 they must have a RWR system like F 22 ALR 94 system to passively locate air borne radar emitters & not only that but also it should cue it's air to air radar guided missiles with it without turning on it's own aesa radar for stealth reason.




III)Missile weaponry comparable to AIM 120D & AIM9X
the russian havent disclosed exactly what is the future weapons of PAK-fa.but from various russian airshows we have come across that there are 3 weapons system available right now

1) RVV-BD -
RVV-BD long-range guided missile is presented at MAKS-2011 for the first time. In comparison with its predecessor R-33E long-range guided missile the new one has improved technical performance. High aerodynamic quality of RVV-BD missile and use of dual-mode solid – fuelled motor taking into consideration its all-up weight up to 510 caliber, permit launch – range up to 200 km (R – 33E has launch range only 120 km) and ability to destroy targets with overload up to 8 g (R – 33E able to destroy only with 4 g overload) at the altitude from 15 m to 25 km.
Russia Develops New Airborne Weapons | rostechnologiesblog

2) RVV-SD
medium-range radio-guided RVV-SD is believed to be an improved version of the RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder).The RVV-SD air-to-air missile features an increased maximum range of up to 110 kilometers and can engage fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft as well as cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). The weapon is also suitable for intense clutter and jamming scenarios with multiple air-to-air engagements simultaneously. The RVV-SD guidance system combines the inertial navigation system (INS) and active radar seeker with data-link target correction. It is fitted with a fixed thrust solid fuel rocket motor and laser proximity fuze. The rod type warhead consists of multiple hollow charges.
RVV-SD
Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC

3)RVV-MD
The short-range air-to-air RVV-MD is a further development of the R-73 heat-seeking design.The RVV-MD is an intense jamming resistant short range air-to-air missile designed to engage fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters in close-in dogfight scenarios. This high maneuverable missile is intended for fighter aircraft and attack helicopters. RVV-MD is provided with a two-color passive IR seeker, thrust vectoring control, a fixed-thrust solid fuel motor, and radar proximity fuze or a laser proximity fuze ( RVV-MDL version). The 8 kg warhead is of rod type. The RRV-MD is a follow-up development based upon the R-73 missile and will be supplied to the latest generation of Russian fighter aircraft such as PAK FA stealth fighter.It's effective range is about 40km .
RVV-MD
Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC
Russia to Field Air-Launched Missiles for T-50 by 2014 | Defense | RIA Novosti


meanwhile if you take a close look at the american counterparts

1) AIM 120 D
The AIM-120D is an upgraded version of the AMRAAM with improvements in almost all areas, including 50% greater range (than the already-extended range AIM-120C-7) and better guidance over its entire flight envelope yielding an improved kill probability (Pk).The AIM-120D (P3I Phase 4, formerly known as AIM-120C- is a development of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation using a GPS-enhanced IMU, an expanded no-escape envelope, improved HOBS (High-Angle Off-Boresight) capability, and a 50% increase in range.

max effective range is suppose to be 170-180km
Source
Google Translate



2)AIM 9X block 1 & block2

The AIM-9X Sidewinder is a substantial upgrade to the Sidewinder family featuring an imaging infrared focal plane array (FPA) seeker with claimed 90° off-boresight capability, compatibility with helmet-mounted displays such as the new U.S. Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, and a totally new three-dimensional thrust-vectoring control (TVC) system providing increased turn capability over traditional control surfaces. AIM-9X demonstrated potential for a Lock-on After Launch capability,
It's maximum effective range is suppose to be around 30-35km

The Block II adds Lock-on After Launch capability with a datalink, so the missile can be launched first and then directed to its target afterwards by an aircraft with the proper equipment for 360 degree engagements, such as the F-35 and F-22.
AIM-9X Block II performing better than expected


So one can see the russians have indeed some good missiles in their kitty .But in radar guided missile department AIM 120D excels to RVV SD in range & also having two way datalink & also somewhat in seeker quality with longer no escape zone.
THe russians must develop a radar guided missile with comparable range & able to engage High G target under intense Electronic warfare environment that of AIM 120D



meanwhile the russians have yet to field a FPA seeker IR guided  missile comparable to AIM-9x though RVVMD has range advantage  & is beleived to have QWIP IR imaging seeker .

It is well known that Russian industry is working on a Focal Plane Array (FPA) seeker for their future WVR missiles, to compete against the ASRAAM, AIM-9X, Iris-T and Python 5 seekers, adding further infrared counter-countermeasures capabilities. The open question is whether the future Russian FPA seeker will match the midwave Indium Antimonide detector array technology in the Raytheon 256x256 device in the ASRAAM/AIM-9X, or whether the Russians will leapfrog a generation and opt for much more capable QWIP (Quantum Well Imaging Photodetector) technology pioneered by Germany's industry during the late 1990s.
SOURCE
The Russian Philosophy of Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

IV)Avionics & Sensor fusion & self defence system

the Russians have used Su 35 as test bed for deployment of their 5th gen system . The russians have integrated Common integrated processor in SU 35 like F22 , F35 & rafale.So must probably they would integrate it in PAK-FA also but it should
be as fast & powerful like that Of F22's CIP .It is the key component of sensor fusion.

Many things about Russian avionics to be used in PAF-FA are still in development & would take it's course along side with the
subsequent unveiling of more no of PAK -FA protypes.

like for example they have installed N036 X band aesa radar in PAK-FA's 3rd & 4th protype  & 101-KS Ultraviolet missile approach warning system(MAWS) in 4th protype


The Tikhomirov NIIP X-band AESA design for the PAK-FA is better understood than the core avionic suite, due to extensive disclosure by Tikhomirov NIIP at MAKS 2009.Public statements made in Russia through 2009 claim 1,500 TR module elements. Counting exposed radiating elements on video stills of the antenna indicates an estimated 1,524 TR channels, with a tolerance of several percent.NIIP have publicly cited detection range performance of 350 to 400 km (190 to 215 NMI), which assuming a Russian industry standard 2.5m2 target, is also consistent with the 2008 model for an AESA radar using ~10W rated TR modules,
Source
Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA / Sukhoi/KnAAPO T-50/I-21/Article 701 PAK-FA ????????????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????
Check the comments section about the exact T/R module value
Tekhomirov NIIP AESA radar unveiled for PAK-FA | The DEW Line

This will "no longer be just radar, but the integrated radio-electronic system, which includes radars in several wave bands, an identification system, electronic warfare (EW) and electronic intelligence (ELINT)", stated NIIP's director Yuri Belyy in a media report on the system

SOURCE
http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/belfast/Ruskie_Jet-New-.pdf










APG-77 radar,

The AN/APG-77 radar, designed for air superiority and strike operations, features a low-observable, active-aperture, electronically-scanned array that can track multiple targets in any weather. The AN/APG-77 changes frequencies more than 1,000 times per second to lower interception probability. Additionally, radar emissions can be focused in an electronic-attack capability to overload enemy sensors. It is Composed of 1500 transmit/receive modules,APG-77 has a 'typical' operating range of 193 km (120 mi) and is specified to achieve an 86% probability of intercept against a 1 m2 target at its maximum detection range using a single radar paint.It can also be used as an mini awacs platform

But the challenge for Russians would be to field a true Low probabilty of Interception AESA Radar to defeat F22 ALR 94 system & it's jamming system




101-KS Ultraviolet missile approach warning system(MAWS) -

The russians have integrated 101-KS U MAWS On the fuselage sides of the t-50-4, just aft of the cockpit, two sensors are mounted to serve the 101Ks-U ultra-violet missile approach warning system (MaWs).

together with two further 101Ks-U sensors fitted previously (on the third example) under the nose and atop the tail boom, the system provides observation of airspace all around the aircraft.

surprisingly, the ball for the 101Ks-O (oborona, defence) active electro-optical jamming system, which on the previous aircraft was mounted on the fuselage spine just aft of the cockpit, disappeared from the t-50-4 airframe. in its place appeared on the t-50-4 a small blade antenna and two small box-shaped antennae at its sides; these are presumed to be communications aerials.

Source


Very little info we have right now about specifications

AN/AAR 56 Infra-Red and Ultra-Violet MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System)

Lockheed Martin’s AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector (MLD) is a mature,
affordable, defensive system capable of providing long-range detection and
declaration of both airborne and surface-launched threats.
An MLD shipset for each aircraft is comprised of six sensors, three common
interface processing cards, and six low observable window frame assemblies

For more refer

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/missile-launch-detector-mld/mfc-mld-pc.pdf
So the russians have integrated  the similiar kind of MAWS as on F22 but whether it would be as capable as AAR 56 only time would tell in real combat action.





V) High thrust Supercruise engine comparable to F 22's  Pratt & Whitney F119 engines -

The Russians have stated from the very beginning with the start of their PAK-FA program , that it is going to have a supercruise engine .According to Sukhoi director Mikhail Pogosyan, the 117 (AL-41F1) is a new fifth generation engine built specifically for the PAK-FA.  Though the specifics of the new engine remain classified, information provided has included: increased engine thrust by 2.5 tonnes over the AL-31 engine, a reduction in engine weight by 150 kilograms (330 lb). These changes allow the aircraft to supercruise, sustaining supersonic flight speeds without using afterburners.
It is expected that each engine will be able to independently vector its thrust upwards, downward or side to side. Vectoring one engine up with the other one down can produce a twisting force, which would enable the PAK FA to be the first fifth generation fighter with full 3-D thrust vectoring along all three aircraft axes: pitch, yaw and roll.

According to preliminary facts, the engine will have increased thrust and fuel efficiency as compared to AL-41F1. Allegedly, the powerplant will have a thrust of about 107 kN in cruise mode and 176 kN in full afterburner mode.
Source
The testing of a new engine intended for PAK FA will be started in 2014 - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

The first ?-50 prototypes are powered by the 1st stage engine – Product 117. "At present detail design and full-scale design of the engine have been completed (this refers to the 2nd stage engine), special and endurance tests are in progress. The development should be completed in the second quarter of 2015", — the source said.
"The Product 117 will be the first Russian-produced engine to have a FADEC", — the source said.
Source
The development of ?final? engine for T-50 will be completed in 2015 - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM


The exact details about the engine Project 117 is still classified & would slowly be revealed with the subsequent unveiling of the protypes

Meanwhile the American counterparts F22 Pratt & Whitney F119 engines  have a very high thrust (156 kN) per engine.Maximum
supercruise speed of about around {MACH 1.7- 1.8} With afterburners, it is "greater than Mach 2.0" (greater than 1,317 mph, 2,120 km/h).it  has 2D TVC, with a range of ±20 degrees.


So the russians need to have a lighter & more high thrust engine  which can increase the PAK-FA supercruise speed greater than F22 .The Russian PAK-FA  alraedy known to have higher Ceiling  than F22 so if they can increase the supercruise speed
a bit then it would increase the kinematic range of Russian BVRAAM even further .
But the problem lies whether the Russians would stick with 3 axis TVC or 2D TVC stealthy nozzles like that of F22 ,which have
added stealth advantage.My bet is on the previous one



CONCLUSION


Well this is the most hard part of any analysis .To be fair enough The F22 is the benchmark for any 5th gen fighter to compete .The Russians have built PAK-FA Specifically to counter F22 in future combat . The Russians wont be fighting with
Americans one on one in reality for the fear of nuclear conflict but they would sell those planes to 3rd world countries who may not have friendly ties with USA.There it would have chance to go one on one with F22 .Still Pak-fa has a long way to go
but it would be the main rival of F22 in the future combat irrespective of any other 5th gen  fighter plane available in the market at that time.

IMO you didn't put enough emphasis on the latest developments of the Russian flight/g-suit for PAK-FA pilots which would theoretically allow a significantly higher altitude ceiling for the PAK-FA in comparison with the F-22

In modern air-to-air combat such a difference of lets say 10,000 feet or whatever it is would be very important; the PAK-FA's missiles will have far greater range than the F-22s which would be fighting against gravity the whole way. The PAK-FA would have a decisive energy advantage and could easily trade altitude for speed if manuevers are required. The F-22 can of course do the same thing but then they'll risk being even lower in comparison to the PAK-FA than before.

I think another aspect you have not examined is the fact that the F-22 is part of a NATO strike force that is really designed to enter enemy air space and take apart the enemy air force and air defence network.


In comparison the PAK FA is designed to be part of the IAD of Russia which includes plenty of ground, air and soon space based radar antenna with wavelengths that allow it to detect and track even stealthy small targets at very long range.

As such the Russian focus will be to take out AWACS and tanker aircraft and JSTARS and of course unmanned drones and defending its IAD components, while the US focus will be to isolate the important components of the Russian IADS and take them out.

The real problem for the US forces is the numbers involved and of course the fact that at any time the Russians might lose patience and simply go tactical nuke on them and their attacks... one major attack would not be sufficient to take down the Russian IADS they would need multiple coordinated attacks and still not be guaranteed to disable it enough to allow weaknesses to be exploited.

This thread strangely resemble another one about virtual comparison between Type-214 and AMUR-1650 and theirs ....."supposed".......metrics and capabilities.    





I am, obviously, not interested in any type of speculation about design and CONOPS; instead i am more interested in crumbling some openly wrong information and low level "mantras" circulating on those type of Aircraft.


1)  STEALTH

Tactical relevant average area of reflection   (the value really involved in multi-radial radar illumination in air-to air engagements ,instead of the marketing ,sensationalistic, and purely academic ones obtained at selected hypercritical angles with pencil beam irradiation) for this kind of low observable maneuverable tactical aircraft is literally  LIGHT YEARS  far from the comical RCS figures usually cited.


The computed figures for effective RCS of the F-22A Raptor , for words of the leading domestic figures of the field  -representing ,incidentally, also , in the Theoretic Physics understanding of the involved phenomenon and the principles behind them, also the leading figures on the planet and the same Institutes where them has been developed in first instance - fluctuate all in the range of 0,1 - 0,5 square meters



Владимир Загородний  , Главный конструктор ОАО "НИИП имени В.В. Тихомирова"

"Интересно сравнить «дуэльные» возможности авиационных комплексов Су-27СМ2 (Су-35) и F-22A «Сухой», оснащенный «Ирбисом», может обнаружить цель с ЭПР 0.1-0.5 м2 (приблизительно в этом интервале лежит величина эффективной радиолокационной поверхности рассеяния малозаметного самолета Локхид Мартин F/A-22A) на дистанции 165-240 км. В то же время, американский истребитель «видит» своего противника с ЭПР 1 м2 на дистанции лишь 200 км (Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2005-2006). Таким образом, малозаметный «Рэптор» со своей АФАР по части бортового радиолокационного комплекса не имеет никаких реальных преимуществ перед модернизированным «Сухим» в ракетном воздушном бою на «вневизуальной» дальности."

Александр Давиденко ,Главный конструктор ОКБ "Сухой

ЭПР самолетов старого поколения (например, Су-27) составляет около 12 м², тогда как у F-22A Raptor она колеблется в диапазоне 0,3-0,4 м². ЭПР ПАК ФА 'не будет превышать показатели F-22A, она будет к ним очень близка'.

А.Н. Лагарьков. Директор Института теоретической и прикладной электродинамики РАН.

Если в 1980-х годах самолеты типа F-15 имели ЭПР более 10 м2 то у модернизированного авиационного комплекса ЭПР составляет 1-1.5 м2, а у перспективных авиационных комплексов пятого поколения, таких как F-22, JSF, - 0.3 м2.

"Stealth" technology (in its REAL application, implications and tactically relevant order of magnitude) offer ,to tactical aircraft implementing it, an important and , even a deciding tactical advantage ,in particular against legacy opponent within some "threshold" radar detection range and field of view, but nothing even only near to the concept of operation usually linked in public immaginary with the ait-to-air engagements with similar LO platforms.  .


Low observability allow also to achieve ,in air to air combat ,the famous "undetected kills" so often claimed, but in way TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the comical ideas present in public imaginary
In substance the low observable aircraft OVERTURN the effective field of view conical footprint of the enemy aircraft's radar , from outside its effective detection range, attacking it subsequently from a totally "blind" angle of interception.

Just from the emergence of this practice by part of LO tactical aircraft arise, in practically all new multirole and air superiority aircraft design, the critical importance given to the implementation of a VERY WIDE(at example Irbis radar for Su-35S or future Captor-E radar for Eurofighter Thyphoon ,with combined electronically-mechanically steered dish) or ALL AROUND (at example PAK-FA or F-35) sensor coverage ; even more taking into account that the effective RCS of the attacking aircraft, while executing similar overturning maneuvers, result significantly greater than theirs "nose-on" one and ,therefore, require aperture and radiated power significantly lower to achieve a solid track of the enemy bandit.


If you are interested in principles of computation of airborne object's RCS i suggest to you "Computer Simulation of Aerial Target Radar Scattering, Recognition, Detection, and Tracking" by  Shirman, Y.D., Gorshkov, S., Leshenko, S. ,  Ollenko, V., Sedyshev S. and  Sukharevskiy O.



2) WEAPON  SUIT


-  This is definitely the bad day of military journalism.  

This is the second time today that i must point out similar childish mistakes (the first with an article from B. Sweetman on T-50 in the PAK-FA thread ) :

The weapons cited by you (RVV BD, RVV-SD and RVV-MD) are ALL scaled down export models  of domestic products and therefore cannot be adopted by any domestic aircraft .
Moreover for some of them also the related domestic object represent only a transitory product.  



- Владимир Ильин (probably caught by an attack of laziness) has very likely "constructed" the really comical figures for AIM-120 AAM's engagement range ,present in its article, collecting informations on the net ,exposing so its side in a way even worse than B. Sweetman with the clear denomination of export version of missiles "sold" as those to be adopted for T-50  

The range figures present on the net, in facts, has been literally corrupted by the infamous designation-system article on Raytheon (Hughes) AIM-120 AMRAAM ,where the engagement ranges of AIM-120C : 50 km,  AIM-120C7 : around 70 km and that expected from AIM-120D : 105 km (about +50% range increase on the C7) has been ridiculously conferred to AIM-120A/B and C5      
Naturally on those comically twisted figures, enthusiast people have "constructed" the figures for AIM-120C7 and AIM-120D

I am sorry but no kind of technological revolution, neither in missile propellant specific impulse neither, engine solution or aerodynamic layout has been achieved by US rocketry sector.


AIM-120 show a rather conventional aerodynamic and propulsion design and its overall mass, layout and fuel fraction is completely in line with the ranges usually cited in specialized publications while totally incompatible with the comical figures portrayed in the net.

This serious article, citing serious sources can surely aid a realize all what previously said :


www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.181/pub_detail.asp

DrSomnath999 wrote:challenge for Russians would be to field a true Low probabilty of Interception AESA Radar to defeat F22 ALR 94 system & it's jamming system

ALR-94 is a purely passive RWR with no jamming capability........LPI is a subject already dissected several times and no magic element link AESA to LPI (anyhow a relative concept linked directly to the technological level of enemy RWR).

Naturally employing AN/APG-77 radar in this role would be not only ridiculously inefficient (above all against any recently built high-aperture radar) but would suddenly transform the F-22's radar dish in a big ,"Very-high Probability of Intercept"   pulsing target beacon  .

Mindstorm wrote:








1)  STEALTH



The computed figures for effective RCS of the F-22A Raptor , for words of the leading domestic figures of the field  -representing ,incidentally, also , in the Theoretic Physics understanding of the involved phenomenon and the principles behind them, also the leading figures on the planet and the same Institutes where them has been developed in first instance - fluctuate all in the range of [u]0,1 - 0,5 square meters[/u]

The exact RCS of F22 is highly classified no body knows that until & unless u yourself are not working in LOCKHEED MARTIN    

But F22 is all aspect stealth plane for sure It would always have stealth advantage in comparision to
PAK-FA

Mindstorm wrote:
If you are interested in principles of computation of airborne object's RCS i suggest to you "Computer Simulation of Aerial Target Radar Scattering, Recognition, Detection, and Tracking" by  Shirman, Y.D., Gorshkov, S., Leshenko, S. ,  Ollenko, V., Sedyshev S. and  Sukharevskiy O.

THanks
No need to lecture me regarding stealth ,keep it for yourselfs

Mindstorm wrote:
2) WEAPON  SUIT




The weapons cited by you (RVV BD, RVV-SD and RVV-MD) are ALL scaled down export models  of domestic products and therefore cannot be adopted by any domestic aircraft .
Moreover for some of them also the related domestic object represent only a transitory product.

 

U need to read that thread again which i posted

Ok i repeat that part again for you if u are lazy to read that again

DrSomnath999 wrote:III)Missile weaponry comparable to AIM 120D & AIM9X
the russian havent disclosed exactly what is the future weapons of PAK-fa.but from various russian airshows we have come across that there are 3 weapons system available right now

BTW read the sources which i posted below all the missiles which i have mentioned .Those 3 missiles
have been mentioned in different sources as going to be armed in future PAK-FA.But if they have planned something else we would eventually know by the subsequent unveiling of PAK-FA protypes.

Got it  

Mindstorm wrote:
This serious article, citing serious sources can surely aid a realize all what previously said :


www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.181/pub_detail.asp

U need to read properly what the chart depicts , It says estimate range which depends upon the speed & ceiling height of aircraft from which it is launched .



The exact range of AIM120D is still classified you can refer the same source u posted ,but u have to go by manufacturer's claims .





BTW i also skeptical about 170-180km
 In my opinion 120 -140km should be the maximum range of AIM 120D 

But whatever it's range may be but it is far greater than russian missiles right now .

R 77 PD ramjet version is scratched .

Mindstorm wrote:
ALR-94 is a purely passive RWR with no jamming capability........LPI is a subject already dissected several times and no magic element link AESA to LPI (anyhow a relative concept linked directly to the technological level of enemy RWR).

Well actually u comprehended my post in a wrong way

what i wrote

challenge for Russians would be to field a true Low probabilty of Interception AESA Radar to defeat F22 ALR 94 system & it's jamming system

what i meant specifically by It's jamming system is actually reffering to  F22's Jamming system not ALR 94 as i had already written in my thread that ALR 94
is RWR so no point of claiming it to be JAMMING system also  

Mindstorm wrote:
Naturally employing AN/APG-77 radar in this role would be not only ridiculously inefficient (above all against any recently built high-aperture radar) but would suddenly transform the F-22's radar dish in a big ,"Very-high Probability of Intercept"    pulsing target beacon  .

WTF are you talking about . I understood a sh!t from this post 

DrSomnath999 wrote:The exact RCS of F22 is highly classified no body knows that until & unless u yourself are not working in LOCKHEED MARTIN

Oh not, for mine good luck not .

In the Institutions where i have worked and work not only the Physics Laws are the same operating in the US at Lockheed Martin , but theirs understanding is dozen of the times better than there .

Even more was Lockheed at desperately need the.....highly sanitized ....publications of achievements and innovations of such "enemy" Scientific Institutions , to even only get the complex theoretical foundation of its most advanced program and get a chance to realize its real feasibility , NOT the contrary ; you can add to what just said that , in all those years, i have never encountered  a single colleague citing a single useful work or achievement coming from this mostly "profit-making-oriented" over-ocean firm  


Do you know , in the specific segment in question,  between  names such as  Ben Rich or Denys Overholser and that of true titans of the sector, form the works and achievements of which the most evolved research programs at world, in both the military and civil sector, were and are developed such as : V.A. Fock, L.A. Vainshtein, P.Y. Ufimtsev, B.Z. Katsenelenbaum, V.M. Babitch , M.S. Agranovich , i don’t have a single instant of doubt.  

 

DrSomnath999 wrote:But F22 is all aspect stealth plane ......

"All aspect stealth" ?  Mhh... sure,  Why ,therefore you don't add some other coded words, such as : "Situational Awareness" ,"Joint", "Fifth Generation" and similar powerpoint marketing garbage ?

I am sure them will heavily condition the resultant effective area of diffraction ,in the high scattering regime, of this aircraft in the most advanced integrated mathematical model on the planet

DrSomnath999 wrote: U need to read that thread again which i posted

Ok i repeat that part again for you if u are lazy to read that again

the russian havent disclosed exactly what is the future weapons of PAK-fa.but from various russian airshows we have come across that there are 3 weapons system available right now

Let me resume your reason's line :

1) You start a thread titled : "How would PAK-FA would counter F22 in future aerial warfare?...... PAK-FA........F-22

2) At the weapon section III named  : "Missile weaponry comparable to AIM 120D & AIM9X" you name  three Russian weapons system -RVV-BD, RVV-SD, RVV-MD- available right now (available FOR WHAT Aircraft ? .....see point one....  

3) You provide a brief description of each of THOSE three missiles with linked secondary sources (obviously and clearly WRONG....see after please)

4) You proceed making comparison of THOSE MISSILES with theirs US counterparts (at theirs own times with engagement ranges comically multiplied ,for effect of low level enthusiasts conjectures, way over the most optimistic model taking into account theirs   normal fuel's fraction, average propulsion engine and very classical aerodynamics configuration )

So one can see the russians have indeed some good missiles in their kitty .

But in radar guided missile department AIM 120D excels to RVV SD in range & also having two way datalink & also somewhat in seeker quality with longer no escape zone.
THe russians must develop a radar guided missile with comparable range & able to engage High G target under intense Electronic warfare environment that of AIM 120D

and

the russians have yet to field a FPA seeker IR guided  missile comparable to AIM-9x though RVVMD has range advantage  & is beleived to have QWIP IR imaging seeker

note (also the QWIP IR for RVV-MD is obviously wronged )



5) When i point out those self-evident mistakes , you attempt to use this fragment of statement to "evade" from your previous position, from a side :

"the russian havent disclosed exactly what is the future weapons of PAK-fa"

but ,on the other side, you attempt to defend the notion previously portrayed with this statement :

BTW read the sources which i posted below all the missiles which i have mentioned .Those 3 missiles
have been mentioned in different sources as going to be armed in future PAK-FA.

Well lets examine those "sources" saying, in your opinion, that those three missiles will arm PAK-FA

1) http://rostechnologiesblog.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/russia-develops-new-airborne-weapons/

in this ...blog...the relevant "information" portrayed is  "The RVV-BD has an active radar seeker supplied by the Agat Moscow Research Institute and is designed to be carried by the modernized MiG-31BM supersonic interceptor as well as by the Russo-Indian FGFA aircraft."

Even the stones know, by now, that domestic MiG-31BM employ R-37M with vastly superior kinematics ,sensor and ECCM not the widely downgraded export RVV-BD .

About RVV-BD let me quote "Aviation Week" of July/August 2011, pag 26

The missile's key feature is its extended range, which company officials note is 200 km using a two-stage motor, or significantly more of the 120 km for the R-33E .
Although Russian industry had been working on longer-range versions, the defense ministry has set 200 km as the range for the export version

2) 3) Your sources for RVV-SD and RVV-MD are some "Tactical missiles Corporation" links (i reveal to you a secret....ALL MISSILES PRESENT THERE ARE EXPORT VERSIONS of domestic models.....; no a single Russian Aircraft has EVER mounted an R-73E or an R-33E or an RVV-AE    ) and a brief Ria Novosti news.

Well those are the precise words of Boris Obnosov on the subjects:

http://www.militarynews.ru/excl.asp?ex=155

Ряд систем вооружения для истребителя 5-го поколения проходят предварительные испытания на других типах самолетов, которые выполняют роль летающих лабораторий. По мере увеличения количества поступающих на испытательный полигон самолетов ПАК ФА испытательная программа авиационных средств поражения все в большей мере продолжается уже на основном типе самолета.

    По ряду изделий испытания находятся в завершающей стадии, по ним идет предварительная подготовка к серийному производству, по другим – испытания продолжаются.

    Завершены испытания управляемых ракет Х-31ПД, РВВ-МД, РВВ-СД и РВВ-БД. На выходе – Х-31АД. Отмечу, что новыеэкспортные разработки соответствуют лучшим мировым образцам, а по ряду показателей превосходят их. Не имеет аналогов в мире управляемая ракета РВВ-БД, обладающая высокой эффективностью на больших удалениях до целей

And if you have still some doubts :

http://rusnavy.com/science/weapons/tacticalmiscorpbreaks/



Summary



The inference is clear : you was ,wrongly, under the idea that a classical configuration/average fuel fraction/standard engine medium range AAM such as AIM-120D had a range of..... 180 km  and that RVV-BD, RVV-SD and RVV-MD was the missile intended for Russian Air Force aircraft (even PAK-FA !) and naturlly completely unaware that them are scaled down export models of domestic objects intended ,moreover, as transitory products.

But you was right , in an almost serendipitous way, on one account : even those export AAMs models can be compared (and also in a favorable way ,under the engagement range parameter) with the most advanced western counterparts .

Those are the words of the same Boris Obnosov on the subject

http://vpk.name/news/38973_kak_pobedit_v_raketnoi_gonke.html

Наши новые ракеты РВВ-МД и РВВ-СД (соответственно малой и средней дальности) практически ни в чем им не уступают, а по некоторым характеристикам даже превосходят. Например, дальность стрельбы РВВ-МД почти вдвое больше, чем у AIM-9X. Российская ракета оснащается усовершенствованной тепловой головкой самонаведения. По чувствительности она идентична американской, по помехозащищенности они соизмеримы. Эта ракета предназначена не только для истребителей и штурмовиков, но и для боевых вертолетов. Что касается оружия средней дальности, то у наших ракет дальность стрельбы примерно на 10 процентов больше.

The export RVV-MD enjoy a double of engagement range advantage on the most advanced domestic US short range missile (40 km against about 18 km of AIM-9X) and RVV-SD enjoy a 10% range advantage (110 km against the around 100 km of AIM-120D).

DrSomnath999 wrote:But whatever it's range may be but it is far greater than russian missiles right now .

Oh yes, sure..........

But F22 is all aspect stealth plane for sure It would always have stealth advantage in comparision to
PAK-FA

No it would not. Both aircraft have stealth based on high frequency radar but in all likelyhood the F-22 will be operating over unfriendly airspace as a weapon of attack/invasion/etc, where long wave radars could render its stealth non existent. The PAK FA is designed to defend Russia and will most likely be operating over friendly airspace with the support and assistance of the aerospace defence forces (VKKO).

The PAK FA is designed to operate as part of an IADS... F-22 is a lone killer intended to defeat IADS.

BTW i also skeptical about 170-180km dunno
In my opinion 120 -140km should be the maximum range of AIM 120D:angel:

But whatever it's range may be but it is far greater than russian missiles right now .

R 77 PD ramjet version is scratched .

Well if we must go by manufacterers claims then the current model R-77 has 110km range and the R-37M has a range of 300km... so I would say very close to double...

WTF are you talking about . I understood a sh!t from this post

Pretty clear to me... using the F-22s radar as an active jammer powerful enough to effect air and ground radar means lots and lots of energy emitted. For passively listening devices... enormous amounts of energy being emitted from a point in the sky where no significant radar returns can be detected just screams F-22.

what  PAK-FA need to have or improve in order to counter F22 even further.?

Pak-FA needs NOTHING to improve and counter the F22.
It was designed from top to button to kill the F-22 and any other stealth or non stealth plane.
Pak-Fa have passive radars L band where the F-22 cannot hide ,Surprise surprise. Those lack of accuracy for a weapon lock ,
but they provide the pilot with and approximation of which zone the enemy is. F-22 low observable signature only works
against X-band radars.. not L band.

Pak-fa Irbis -E Radars table charts of accuracy and detection made by Sukhoi engineers shows  their radar can spot the F-22 as far as 120-150km means that F-22 will have ZERO beyond visual range advantage against the PAK-FA . F-22 will need to open its radar if want to detect the Pak-fa, while the Pak-fa does not need to activate their Aesa radars to detect the F-22 and can use their passive radars and remain undetected.

F-22 will need the help external support like Awacs to detect the pak-fa. Since they will only operate far from US land. Russian also have awacs but also Big Radar Building Stations ultra sensitive that can spot the F-22 as far as 6 thousands km away of Russia. Latest videos shows their radars capable to monitor planes up to western europe and north africa.

“Every civilian or military object, be it airborne or on the ground, uses various systems emitting radio waves. It could be radar stations, communication systems, navigation GPS and GLONASS complexes, radio altimeters etc. Aircrafts have thermal and other sorts of wave emissions. The principles of physics cannot be escaped, even by American stealth B2 and F22 military aircraft. The task of MIIS is to spot such emissions, get exact coordinates and track the movement,” the source shared.

“Because the MIIS only monitors the space, it does not emit waves itself, therefore the enemy won’t know it has been spotted,” the source told Izvestia.

http://rt.com/news/russia-new-surveillance-system-974/


Pak-Fa also have very advanced Infra REd Optics (F-22 have none) , and according to Sukhoi engineers can spot the so called lower heat signature of an
F-22 as far as 80km. And if that wasn't enough bad news for the raptor , Pak-Fa have powerful new generation jammers that can blind any missile launched to them,and totally new evasion technology.. people call it 'Plasma Stealth' that was made specifically to blind active seeker sensors on missiles like AIM-120 AMRAAM and AIM-9 Sidewinder. if they get close to the plane.

So basically the F-22 have a bit lower signature but will not matter since Pak-fa will see F-22 anyway.
and much earlier than F-22 will detect pak-Fa. and that in beyond visual range combat , the F-22 will be unable to score a hit on the pak-fa ,since its missiles will be easy to defeat.

Pak-fa also carry more missiles too ,with greater operation range too. with a superior engine too. So basically Pak-fa surpass in nearly everything the F-22 but lower radar signature at some angles ,specially rear and perhaps sides but will not matter anyway since F-22 will not be able to hide for long from Pak-FA at all and neither score a hit in beyond visual range ,with pak-fa system of defenses.

In close range combat like dogfight F-22 will be even at greater disadvantage,pilots being equal ,because of the superior maneuverability of Pak-FA 3d vector engines. Which F-22 do not have.

IF anything is the other way around.. The Raptor needs to be upgraded but also Fixed its design issues ,to match the Pak-Fa capabilities. If they work as advertised. I'm sure Russians will not think twice canceling the pak-fa if they had any doubt of its capabilities against the F-22 and others planes. Specially since Pak-Fa is not a cheap plane by Russian Standars. But very expensive.  In the other hand F-22 was canceled its production and its plague by design problems.  I really don't think that money was the only reason for cancelling the F-22. Since US continue sponsoring much more expensive programs like Virginia Class submarines,even when they have more than enough of them and dont need any more.

There have been simulations done for/by the Pentagon and the end results are not very positive for US air superiority with their 5th generations F-22 and F-35 plane.

https://youtu.be/ITbGBmaqQkk

Something to remember is that F-22 good or not ,is canceled and US plans to use the F-35 instead as its replacement.


here is interesting non official slides about the Pak_FA that are interesting.. look for the second half. and pause to read the slides.
https://youtu.be/dvoSi5BMoR0

So in the worse case.. Pak-fa have everything to be as good as F-22 in 1 vs 1 combat. But in any better way ,Pak-FA will destroy the Raptor every single time when both engage in combat.  (ignoring its design problems) ,F-22 limitations are its weapons ,lacks of IR sensors and lack of passive radars and depends on awacs to tell where the enemy is. If the awac destroyed F-22 will lose its ability to detect anything while keeping its -low observability- so will need to turn on its radars and reveal its location .

This is *written* so poorly that I can't bear to finish reading it.

Of course little tidbits of what may as well be complete BS, like the 20 year old APG-77 is "more advanced" than the NIIP AESA, caught my eye.

I would say not only Pak-Fa, but also Su-35, although it is not stealth plane. It have practically same capable sensors and armament as Pak-Fa, engines with TVC, etc. New jammers, they have, will blind those Meteors and AMRAAMs, that will fly against them, but in close combat, they will both be a nightmare for all western planes, including F-22 and F-35.

medo wrote:I would say not only Pak-Fa, but also Su-35, although it is not stealth plane. It have practically same capable sensors and armament as Pak-Fa, engines with TVC, etc. New jammers, they have, will blind those Meteors and AMRAAMs, that will fly against them, but in close combat, they will both be a nightmare for all western planes, including F-22 and F-35.

Hehe, you don't need to include F-35 that it will suck in WVR, it will have even trouble to take down upgraded F-14's in a dogfight.

No one say anything against F-14, it is still a capable plane.

It wouldnt counter the F-22. It would get shot down.
The F-22 has better performance, better supercruise, avionics, missiles, stealth, Ew suite, pilot and support systems. Comparing the F-22 to the Pak Fa is like comparing the F-15 to Mig-29 or Su-27.
There is a reason why no russian plane has ever scored a victory against an F-15 or F-16 while losing 100's. Its because the Russians can not build good equipment. Look at the Migs in India that fall out of the sky daily.

If we play dead for a while he might go away   

Comparing the F-22 to the Pak Fa is like comparing the F-15 to Mig-29 or Su-27.

Funny you say that, because in the immediate post war period the west tested all their planes against the Mig-29s from Germany and they got their a$$e$ handed to them... including the F-15. It seems a high off boresight AAM and a helmet mounted sight made all the difference.

Looking at the F-22 its standard weapon is the AMRAAM... a radar guided weapon that would be useless against a stealth aircraft like PAK FA.

F-22 is a sniper and works best from max range where the enemy can't detect it... the PAK FA can see it and can get close enough to make it a WVR fight and the F-22 can lose WVR fights to Rafales and Typhoons and other 4th gen aircraft... its chances against a 5th gen fighter have to be pretty low.

There is a reason why no russian plane has ever scored a victory against an F-15 or F-16 while losing 100's.

There is... it is called picking a reliable source... the US state department is not a reliable source.

Its because the Russians can not build good equipment. Look at the Migs in India that fall out of the sky daily.

Well Pakistani F-16s have to be flying before they can actually crash.  

When the US greatly reduces its presence in Afghanistan, Pakistan will become a viable target for the US because you will no longer be of any use to them.

They sold you stuff because you were a counter to Soviet friendly India, but now the US is kissing Indias A$$ so it can sell 1.5 billion people blue jeans (made in China of course but the american labels will get their cut). They can start remembering facts like most of the 11/9 highjackers were either Saudi or Pakistani nationals and how long do you think they will continue to sell their magic weapons?

European weapons are even more expensive though there are fewer strings attached... which means in 5 years time when Russia is introducing quite a lot of new technology into service Pakistan will be buying from China.

It is true that the historical air to air record post Viet Nam has been abysmal for Soviet bloc vs. American aircraft. This 30 year experience encompasses primarily Arab/Israeli conflicts, the NATO attack on Serbia, and the attacks on Iraq. In all cases, the U.S. and Israel employed a sophisticated aerial warfare network that utilized the full spectrum of well trained pilots, supporting AWAC and jamming aircraft, ground and space based communications and EW assets, tankers ect. It was a systemic effort against poorly trained, usually greatly outnumbered, electronically unsophisticated aircraft with predictable results. The US and Israel also benefited from compromised technology from the Soviet bloc that gave them direct access to Soviet radar systems. What the US and Israel have definitely not faced is an opponent with the ability to target their crucial system nodes - be they airfields, command and control centers, communications, support aircraft, tankers, AWACS, satellites ect. Once that parts of the system start to be taken out the game changes. Russia by virtue of its strategic strike capability (via Iskander/cruise missiles/anti-ship missiles) has that ability. Its SAM systems are good, but in the absence of the counterstrike potential they would be mitigated. It is like a boxer who can only block or slip but not punch back. The real job of the SAM systems is to protect long enough that counterstrike potential. This is why the US/NATO is so opposed to any proliferation of systems like Iskander and is the real reason behind the "missile defense shield" allegedly targeting non-existent Iranian missiles. Its real focus eventually is to neutralize Russia's counterstrike ability.

The west is an empire that has built itself on stealing the resources of others, either before they knew the value of those resources, or simply using force.

The west would not be so rich and powerful if it was not good at what it does... in fact the only thing they are better at when using force to maintain the empire is to paint themselves as the good guys.

ie we pinched your land, but gave you the internet... no need to thank us right now.

In fact I think it is time to change my signature to reflect these facts...

CaptainPakistan wrote:It wouldnt counter the F-22. It would get shot down.
The F-22 has better performance, better supercruise, avionics, missiles, stealth, Ew suite, pilot and support systems. Comparing the F-22 to the Pak Fa is like comparing the F-15 to Mig-29 or Su-27.
There is a reason why no russian plane has ever scored a victory against an F-15 or F-16 while losing 100's. Its because the Russians can not build good equipment. Look at the Migs in India that fall out of the sky daily.

Yeah, Pakistan is doing well with the flying coffins known as F-16's. And those are newer than India's MiG-21bis that are crashing.

As well, you don't need SAMS to shoot down a US jet, look at Libya as an example. Pathetic.

Wait... F-22 cannot be considered 5th gen cause it doesn't have DSI. Are you contradicting yourself now?

Chief designer of PAKFA, Davidenko says the real RCS of F-22 is 0.4 meters.

max steel wrote:Chief designer of PAKFA, Davidenko  says the real RCS of F-22 is 0.4 meters.

FAIL! He obviously never got any access to the F-22. How did he arrive at this figure? Has he shown the calculation? Just empty bluster.

like you know what it is


Not hidden against radars .little do you know stealth concept is russian .

As chief designer of the Russian aircraft designed to engage and defeat the F-22 I would say his knowledge of the F-22 would be rather better than most.

max steel wrote:Chief designer of PAKFA, Davidenko  says the real RCS of F-22 is 0.4 meters.

At what frequency or aspect angle ?

That value is not necessarily wrong but given RCS is very sensitive to many factors (Frequency, polarization etc) I think it's kinda "incomplete"

GarryB wrote:As chief designer of the Russian aircraft designed to engage and defeat the F-22 I would say his knowledge of the F-22 would be rather better than most.

Fair enough, all the more reason why he should explain as to how he arrived at that figure.

I suspect the answer we will get in this forum is Yanks never explained the RCS for the F 22 so neither will we.

Stealthflanker wrote:That value is not necessarily wrong but given RCS is very sensitive to many factors (Frequency, polarization etc) I think it's kinda "incomplete"

The value is wrong. Which is why they have not provided the details.

I understand they will not share the details of the PAK-FA but why can't they share the details of the F 22?