Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions

I think an existing aircraft body , can be converted to be built from composites . For an aircraft that has low wing loading and does not have to carry heavy loads . It can be done . The design and build of aircraft takes many years . So the  design conception for Kowsar , was done many years ago . New materials are now available . Sheets of composites can even be cut and glued by manual skilled labour . Internal fuel and low RCS ( external ) air to air missiles and sharp nose without radar , will keep plane geometry almost identical . Plane flies faster with weight loss .

The yanks had great difficulty in Iraq , with identification of friend and foe system . Not being able to engage Iraq fighters until visual confirmation . The Iranian decoy UAV , can mimic radar cross section and electronic verbal output of yank flier as well as switching to jamming  . For targeting metal planes , the UAV , can carry radar . Plane can carry missile . UAV sacrificial.

I disagree with a radar on stealth , short range , air superiority dog fighter . The yanks will always have longer range radar with wider field of view . And they will have more of them . In Iraq war their AWACS  coordinated the attack by F15 . Putting them in shooting position against Iraq fighters . It is better to jam all radar . And not play on their terms  . Ground radar by Iran should be used instead to direct fighters initially .

The yanks in Iraq war , had impressive jamming too . Both against ground radar and air radar . The net effect was that Iraq fighters were blinded . So to rely on radar is not good idea . At least be ready to loose them quickly . The new problem with radar guided missiles , is also that the F22 and F35 are very low radar . So the standard AMRAAM  , may not work on them .

Agree that IR seekers more useful on air to air missiles . But with advanced chaff systems , even these tended to be of limited usefulness , even against Iraq jet  , running away , with American heat seeker chasing it . I remember an idea , that chemicals could be sprayed into jet exhaust . To make it shine . This gives more prolonged decoy capability.

In my view , Iran needs :

( 1 ) To make jamming all American radar .

( 2 ) To make low RCS , dog fighter,  with small turning radius .

( 3 ) To make decoy drone to confuse FOF system .

( 4 ) To  paint fighter with anti - reflection matt sky blue paint .

( 5 ) To make exhaust of jet to act as IR decoy . Prolonged  burst .

( 6 ) To have heat seeker and auto cannon with laser proximity fuse .

( 7 ) To engage , in initial dog fights in numerical superiority .

( 8 ) To engage with best of best pilot aces to make kills . Gain psychological advantage .

( 9 ) To train in dog  fight school,  all pilots . Teach last minute engagements . Bravery .

( 10 ) Point defence . Pilot knows the ground . Ground support . IR decoy . Visual blinding . AAA .

I would like to add a foot note about importance of speed for air superiority  dog fighter . Speed is not as important a factor as Manuverability.  It can even be a disadvantage . Creating overshoot problems or  large  turning circles . The question of how much speed , is a mathematical problem . Effective dog fighting is a function of  tight turning circle  and speed of plane ( turning circle of plane ,bringing fresh volume of airspace exposed to bore sight and speed of plane ,  bringing fresh airspace into boresight  )  some mathematical  analysis  will give results.

https://youtu.be/di9IkdY7fvs

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_Dash

https://youtu.be/vuJ0IV2Orsg

Iranian development is slow, but steady. Yes thay did many failed projects during development and many things shown are propaganda. But even with "failled" projects, they are learnig. Example is F-5 fighter. They made Azaraksh copy at first to test some equipment, but they were made from existing F-5E fighters. Than they made Saegheh fighter withtwin vertical fins, made fom damaged F-5 fighters, where they need to made now sections of planes. In that time they still didn't produce new F-5 jets, because they still didn't produce whole engine for them. Than they succede to made whole engine Owj together with afterburner and test it and serial production of new planes could start and they put in production Kowsar jet, which is still the same as original F-5E/F, but with new modern electronics inside. It seems that twin fin Saegheh didn't bring anything to design and they decided to produce it in original shape. Yes, they develop radar for it with the help of Phazotron, most probably, they give them technology from Kopyo radar for MiG-21Bison. But Iran that develop new larger multirole radar for their F-4E Phantoms to modernize them, specially to give them anti ship capabilities with their anti ship missiles.

Original F-4E radar for comparison.



Armed with anti ship missiles.



back seat cockpit.

Iran unveiling fully domestically made pilot training jet plane Yasin





Iran construction processes and Flight test Yasin Training Jet

Excellent news. I like that :

( 1) Engine compartment can accommodate future turbofan or different engine. Engine position on outside allows for installation of different engines within the same airframe.

( 2) The skin plates are small. Numerous. Can be changed to composites.

( 3) The wing area relatively large. Good manouverability. Wing position on outside of body allows various one piece rigid wings. Flexible modular design.

( 4) No after - burner version has less IR signature.

( 5) Dynamic stability can be achieved with various engine / wing configurations by shifting position of internal fuel tanks. And or armaments.


Keep up the good work.

Looks a bit like a MiG-AT...

Iranian "copy" of Taiwanese AT-3A

Good ideas are copied. No shame in that. There are two camps in aircraft design. The first is few very expensive planes. The second is less expensive but numerous planes. The Yanks and others are in a race to produce the ultimate fighter. Very expensive. But they are having problems producing these in sufficient numbers. So they have started to think about producing more reliable less expensive F15 and F16 with more updates and upgrades.

In case of USA, we know that the public is brainwashed into accepting the need for ever more complex and expensive planes. The military industrial complex must extract the greatest added value and profit. And in order to do this, they will go for the most unnecessarily complex and truncated design. Promising immortality to the hapless pilots, who are used to hero worship and riding in Bat mobiles on TV.

I know that pilots die in combat. They are soldiers. Yes soldiers. Not angels in the air. Their example should be of sacrifice. To fight with practical and useful weapons. Weapons that are not made for profit. But for war. This plane has every chance, with some improvements and modifications to be a lethal and cheap and numerous plane in the hands of capable and brave Iranian pilots. Who will shoot and kill all opponents. And yes die too. Meanwhile other airforce can play with indestructible Bat mobile. And their pilot will never die.........Good luck with that!  The Russian proverb :  "  There are old pilots and there are bold  pilots, but there are no old and bold  pilots."

All components made in Iran. Unlike comparable foreign versions. Cost to production less than 20 million Dollars. Possibly less. Cost of planes it has to face from 80 to 150 million Dollars. You get superiority of 8 : 1.




https://youtu.be/_rpPAljngeQ

I presume this is just going to be another pointless upgrade/copy of a F-5. Iran has various homegrown copies of this aircraft one designed for dedicated ground attack and the other a light multi role aircraft that's enough. They keep wasting money these aircraft they decent enough as light strike but there is a limit to upgrades and especially when each time they do it it's nothing great and only produce a small handful. Stick with kowsar and that's it. And save the money and hopefully when sanctions get lifted they will have a big pot of money to buy new better fighters such as Su-30. Throwing money as these stupid projects is wasteful.

Iran to unveil new domestic-made fighter jet ‘in near future

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/202005241079406356-iran-may-unveil-new-domestically-made-fighter-jet-in-the-near-future-in-face-of-us-sanctions/

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/iran-to-unveil-new-domestic-made-fighter-jet-in-near-future/

Actually I can't agree.
The F-5 was a good little plane and I think the F-20 had a lot of promise too.

These aircraft are designed to be light and cheap to use, but they are light fighters, so they already have most of the things you need in a light fighter... unlike a converted LIFT.

The biggest problem with light fighters is that they try to make them as good as bigger expensive fighters.

Light fighters don't need enormous flight range, they don't need enormous payload capacity, and they don't need expensive avionics and equipment.

An F-5 with a modern nose mounted targeting pod like Lantirn III, and a datalink to receive target data from ground and air based radar and systems with the capacity to zoom to 12,000m altitude to mach 1.5 plus to launch some AAMs at targets it can't see but has been given the coordinates of by other platforms is cheap and simple and you can build hundreds of them for the price it would cost to buy and operate 2 F-35s.

With a Gefest & T system it could use both guided and unguided munitions relatively cheaply and with a decent pilot escape system if one gets in to problems and the pilot has to eject it is no big deal...

50-100 of these armed with medium range AAMs and IR guided AAMs would be an excellent way to blunt any cruise missile attack from a neighbour or enemy force.

You could develop a small PESA radar for them so every other aircraft can detect and track targets itself if needed, but most of the time it could operate with larger aircraft.... make it able to operate from short rough airstrips and locate them all over your country for self defence.

GarryB wrote:Actually I can't agree.
The F-5 was a good little plane and I think the F-20 had a lot of promise too.

These aircraft are designed to be light and cheap to use, but they are light fighters, so they already have most of the things you need in a light fighter... unlike a converted LIFT.

The biggest problem with light fighters is that they try to make them as good as bigger expensive fighters.

Light fighters don't need enormous flight range, they don't need enormous payload capacity, and they don't need expensive avionics and equipment.

An F-5 with a modern nose mounted targeting pod like Lantirn III, and a datalink to receive target data from ground and air based radar and systems with the capacity to zoom to 12,000m altitude to mach 1.5 plus to launch some AAMs at targets it can't see but has been given the coordinates of by other platforms is cheap and simple and you can build hundreds of them for the price it would cost to buy and operate 2 F-35s.

With a Gefest & T system it could use both guided and unguided munitions relatively cheaply and with a decent pilot escape system if one gets in to problems and the pilot has to eject it is no big deal...

50-100 of these armed with medium range AAMs and IR guided AAMs would be an excellent way to blunt any cruise missile attack from a neighbour or enemy force.

You could develop a small PESA radar for them so every other aircraft can detect and track targets itself if needed, but most of the time it could operate with larger aircraft.... make it able to operate from short rough airstrips and locate them all over your country for self defence.

I didn't say they were useless did I. I said they have their limits and limits in upgrades. Also Iran already has three Iranian copies of it as well as the USA ones they have. The kowsar design is enough for Iranian light fighter why waste more money on trying to improve it. Especially when we all know they normally only ever build a handful. The light fighter isn't answer for their dwindling air force they would be better saving the cash so eventually when sanctions lifted they can buy replacements for the bigger more capable aircraft it needs to replace.

For a light cheap plane to remain light and cheap you have to draw the line somewhere... if you keep improving it and adding shit you end up with something like the F-35 which was supposed to be the cheap numbers stealthy plane to operate with a much smaller number of F-22s to fill the gaps... they ended up with a plane too expensive to buy or operate... they did the same with the F-16... it was supposed to be the cheap simple light fighter that was going to be made in enormous numbers and fill out a force with a rather smaller number of bigger heavier aircraft...

the light cheap plane just needs to be able to carry air to air missiles an accelerate to supersonic speed and about 12,000m altitude to launch them from to give them max reach. Being able to drop dumb cheap bombs accurately on targets from safe altitudes would be an advantage and being able to direct fire dumb unguided rockets at battlefield targets would also be useful too.

Some cheap PESA radar and a pod mounted targeting system similar to what the Su-25SM3 carries but optimised for air targets too would be good enough... give it large control surfaces so it manouvers well at any altitude and crank out as many as you can make.

A simple version could be used as an unmanned missile truck, and attack drones could be based on it too...

GarryB wrote:For a light cheap plane to remain light and cheap you have to draw the line somewhere... if you keep improving it and adding shit you end up with something like the F-35 which was supposed to be the cheap numbers stealthy plane to operate with a much smaller number of F-22s to fill the gaps... they ended up with a plane too expensive to buy or operate... they did the same with the F-16... it was supposed to be the cheap simple light fighter that was going to be made in enormous numbers and fill out a force with a rather smaller number of bigger heavier aircraft...

the light cheap plane just needs to be able to carry air to air missiles an accelerate to supersonic speed and about 12,000m altitude to launch them from to give them max reach.  Being able to drop dumb cheap bombs accurately on targets from safe altitudes would be an advantage and being able to direct fire dumb unguided rockets at battlefield targets would also be useful too.

Some cheap PESA radar and a pod mounted targeting system similar to what the Su-25SM3 carries but optimised for air targets too would be good enough... give it large control surfaces so it manouvers well at any altitude and crank out as many as you can make.

A simple version could be used as an unmanned missile truck, and attack drones could be based on it too...

I thought what they (Iran) did with the Su-22 was good but I wouldn't suggest any more money spent on it.

The kowsar on paper seem good enough the thing is they keep bringing out another another and another and only a handful are produced. Cut the crap design a light fighter cheaply and with what u need and stick with it and actually produce in decent numbers. They could have done that and completed that a decade ago.

Iran's strategy should have been built this copy of F-5 to what they need and build it to replace the original F-5.

Then with the rest of it's air force upgrade where it can and let's face it any Soviet or Chinese aircraft could be upgraded with russian and Chinese assistance on the sly and done without shouting about it. This would mean their Su-25, Su-24, Mig-29, J-7. They already did the Su-22 themselves. So if they achieved these upgrades and complete replacement of F-5 with their homegrown version, it would only leave the F-4, F-14, and mirage F1 which lets face it they were never going to be able to build a replacement or manage decent upgrades but then this is where they have a cash pot so when sanctions lift they can go out and purchase aircraft and if they bought 36 su-30 and gained production rights they can build the rest for their needs. Iran would be sorted. So in short build what u can, upgrade what u can then save for what u can't build/upgrade. But whatever u do don't fart about with pointless upgrades/copies and waste precious money. This would massively streamline Iran air force and if situation happened again with such brutal sanctions u can maintain Ur air force to a decent standard

Well, they r still learning to build & upgrade fighters.
As 1 Russian saying goes, "repetition is the mother of learning".
There r many incremental upgradings that can still be done on those planes. If the USN/AF kept F-14s/111s, those would be upgraded to, just like F-15/16/18s.
Venezuela could also sell/barter her F-16s to Iran- they could be upgraded just like their F-4/5/14s.
In fact, Russia could "sell" more Su-30s to Venezuela on paper with the intent of transferring them to Iran- circumventing the sanctions, as Caracas has nothing to lose anyway being under US sanctions.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Well, they r still learning to build & upgrade fighters.
As 1 Russian saying goes, "repetition is the mother of learning".
There r many incremental upgradings that can still be done on those planes. If the USN/AF kept F-14s/111s, those would be upgraded to, just like F-15/16/18s.
Venezuela could also sell/barter her F-16s to Iran- they could be upgraded just like their F-4/5/14s.
In fact, Russia could "sell" more Su-30s to Venezuela on paper with the intent of transferring them to Iran- circumventing the sanctions, as Caracas has nothing to lose anyway being under US sanctions.

I think Iran's aviation industry isn't capable of upgrading the F-5, F-14, mirage F1. If they could they most likely would have by now, it's been decades since blocks were put on by USA etc and then sanctions and they still haven't come up with solutions even the thought of Su-30 via Venezuela etc. But have done upgrades for F-5 which is nothing to brag about and most likely the capacity of their aviation industry even their toophan helicopter has seen very little production. They do seen to struggle with production. It's not an easy industry to master just take a look at India as an example and China hoe much investment those two countries have had to make to achieve what they have or haven't achieved, and Iran has not even spent a fraction of what they have spent.

And yes the USA could have upgraded those aircraft u mentioned further but there is two big things you have missed, one USA produced those aircraft and know them very well and have the experience and skills,machinery, and engineers and two they have the money to upgrade and produce in decent numbers. Iran however has neither of the above.

If Iran as I mentioned got hold of Su-30 to replace F-4, F-14, and F1 they could get away with the rest of their aircraft through upgrades (Su-25, Su-24, mig-29, J-7) and replaced the F-5 with homegrown kowsar, their Su-22 already upgraded and still useful. They could of course replace their mig-29(2 squadrons) with mig-29m or mig-35 wouldn't cost too much as their current mig-29 are old and limited in upgrades and range. Su-25 and Su-24 upgraded are decent at what they do and the J-7 upgraded still decent enough as a light fighter role these are probably the newest airframes they have. Another option they could do is get the rights for Su-30 and mig-29m buy an initial batch build the rest and replace F-4, F-14, F1 with su-30 and replace at least their mig-29, J-7, F-5 with mig-29m and eventually their su-22 with mig-29m this would streamline their air force and parts etc. And In time (2030) they could replace the su-24 with su-34 (if su-24 upgraded now) the good thing about these options is they would have the expertise (in time) to maintain and build parts to keep them flying and both the su-30 and mig-29m could receive future upgrades designed for su-35 and mig-35. I think Iran has learnt it's lesson from western aircraft and USA knows that hence keeping sanctions in place because they know Russia is likely going to reap sales and Israel Saudi etc will be pissed off at Iran getting better equipment

Most upgrades r with engines & avionics/weapons. Even if they get new batches of fighters, I expect them to keep F-1/4/14s flying for some time- if they r still capable of performing, why not, esp. since they can't produce copies of them or similar fighters yet?
It's also a lot cheaper than buying new planes & training extra maintainers & pilots for them.

Of course if and it’s a big if, post October when the arms embargo ends, Russia and China may offer weapons including fighters to Iran. Potentially a big market in Iran.

Tsavo Lion wrote:Most upgrades r with engines & avionics/weapons. Even if they get new batches of fighters, I expect them to keep F-1/4/14s flying for some time- if they r still capable of performing, why not, esp. since they can't produce copies of them or similar fighters yet?
It's also a lot cheaper than buying new planes & training extra maintainers & pilots for them.

These aircraft are getting old and they are struggling to keep in flying condition. And the potential threats they face these aircraft are not fit for purpose. And there is only so much money you can throw at an old fighter before it becomes wasteful. And just because they can upgrade a basic light fighter doesn't mean they can do it to more sophisticated aircraft and I think the proof is there. In the many decades they have had the aircraft what upgrades have they did to F1, F-14, F-4???? And considering that these are the most capable aircraft they yet they don't upgrade them? Yet they choose to spend money of the light fighter. I know that they produced a AAM that's about it. The F-14 is quite a problematic aircraft in terms of electrics. However these three aircraft are probably the most capable threat to any attacker yet no upgrade. Many sources claim many aren't in flying condition

Export restrictions to Iran come off in October this year don't they...

I would think that ironically upgrades of the F-5 would be the only ones that make sense for Iran... for everything else they would be better off buying new.

Many sources claim many aren't in flying condition

Most western sources are biased because the USN struggled to keep its F-14s flying and it could buy new parts for them...

I rather suspect a Flanker based F-14 replacement and a Fulcrum based F-4 replacement would be the simplest option, but they never seem to do what I think they will...

GarryB wrote:Export restrictions to Iran come off in October this year don't they...

I would think that ironically upgrades of the F-5 would be the only ones that make sense for Iran... for everything else they would be better off buying new.

Many sources claim many aren't in flying condition

Most western sources are biased because the USN struggled to keep its F-14s flying and it could buy new parts for them...

I rather suspect a Flanker based F-14 replacement and a Fulcrum based F-4 replacement would be the simplest option, but they never seem to do what I think they will...

I didn't mean all weren't in flying condition but quite a few not flying due parts etc.

Iran as I mentioned should retire it's F5, F1, F4, F14 and replace with su-30 and mig-29m and get some kind of production rights this would still keep their aviation industry busy.  They can keep their grown F-5 copies but halt production or just build trainer versions(believe they already have)   They can keep their Su-22, and upgrade J-7, su-25, Su-24. This would streamline their air force. Later on once this has all happened some many years,  they could eventually replace su-22 and su-24 with su-34. J-7 with more mig-29m.

Let's wait and see what aircraft they bringing out soon.  And see what October brings most likely continued sanctions

In 5 months the UN sanctions will expire. USA could of course put additional US only sanctions but Russia and China will not have to respect them.

In 5 months Iran could buy su 30 and mig 29M/mig35,
Or even the chinese Jf17, if they want something really cheap but better than their f4 and f5...

No point in try to reverse engineer f16s from the 80s, especially since, as garry and other users pointed out, IRAN can get production right and assistance for modern russian planes...
And they could also organize not just the assembly of final products, but also the production of some of the components and spare parts

In addition they could cooperate with Russia to develop some modern fighter, e.g. contribute to the work done by mig corporation for the new 5th generation fighter to replace the mig29 and mig35 in the mid 2030s...

Practically they could put a similar partnership that the indian should have had for the T50, but that they abandoned...

d_taddei2 wrote:I presume this is just going to be another pointless upgrade/copy of a F-5. Iran has various homegrown copies of this aircraft one designed for dedicated ground attack and the other a light multi role aircraft that's enough. They keep wasting money these aircraft they decent enough as light strike but there is a limit to upgrades and especially when each time they do it it's nothing great and only produce a small handful. Stick with kowsar and that's it. And save the money and hopefully when sanctions get lifted they will have a big pot of money to buy new better fighters such as Su-30. Throwing money as these stupid projects is wasteful.

Iran to unveil new domestic-made fighter jet ‘in near future

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/202005241079406356-iran-may-unveil-new-domestically-made-fighter-jet-in-the-near-future-in-face-of-us-sanctions/

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/iran-to-unveil-new-domestic-made-fighter-jet-in-near-future/

Yes. HESA Azarakhsh (?) is considered by Iranian authorities claim it is Iran's first domestically manufactured combat jet fighter although it is another rebuilt of F-5.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

Anyway, as I said before, in 5 months they can order mig29M, su30 and establish joint production of those, receiving training and engineering support from Russia. Or do the same with China. Why should they buy scraps (for which they do not have any pilot, mechanic or engineer with any experience with them) and spend years trying to reverse engineering them?

Big assumptions there...nothing to say anything will be sold to Iran post October. Very much a case of watch this space...

@ GarryB



"...... I think local production at the very least assembly and production of support components would also need to be assured but because most of the time it is spares support where companies make most of their money then there needs to be an agreement regarding volume limits and exports, because if things change and Iran becomes hostile Russia does not want to compete on the international market for spare parts with Iran for spares for its own products....... "


Except in wartime, agreements are rarely kept. Or not guaranteed. A way around this supply of Ammo and spare parts for Russian fighter jets, is to agree a continuous supply of spare parts, manufactured by Russia. A static and old and large stockpile of spares is not useful, since these can not be stored long term, without deterioration. Therefore a stock of spares must be continuously replaced with new stock, to allow them to be useable. There may be no war, for another ten years. And spares deteriorate over these sorts of time. So spare stocks must be replaced every few years. Quality suffers. So Russia, if not providing manufacturing rights to Iran and agreements over limitation on production and sales not a guarantee in wartime. Then solution is a good deal on long term provision of reasonably priced spare stocks, to allow these jets to fly and fight at least a medium term war. Or last an average number of flights for a jet in combat conditions. How many flights does modern jet last, before being shot down ? Twenty? There must be a number somewhere......