Iran Air Force (IRIAF) | News and Discussions

Tsavo Lion wrote:If they get a hold of their missiles & pods, the software already there can still be used, at least until simpler computers &/ software can be installed. It's not like trying to use a flying saucer in combat made by aliens.. I doubt they have a remote control to turn it off from the US like a switch- even then, it could be bypassed.
Don't underestimate the Iranians- they r no less smart than the Indians.  

I don't underestimate them, it is just that I do not see the point in trying to acquire aircrafts that they never operated before and that will not receive any support from the manufacturer. It is always a long learning curve to be able to operate and maintain effectively a new aircraft model, and that if you get support from the manufacturer and from other expert operators. (I know that they could get some support from the Pakistanis, but it is not the same thing).

By the way, why should the Iraqis gifts their f16 to Iran?


On the other hands Iran has experience operating mig29, so the transition to mig29k or even mig35 will be easier.

Should not they try instead to get some second hand mig29s while they wait for the newly build ones?

Even Russia could sell some of their older ones, after some quick upgrades...

And concerning the short range of mig29, if I am not mistaken among the improvements introduced in the SMT modifications there are also changes to the structure that allow larger tanks to be used, partially solving the issue.

Well India is already assemblying a large part of their su30 and mig29 and if I am not mistaken also producing some of the components under licence...

Iran could follow the same scheme, e.g. buy the first 30 or so jets from Russia while getting Russian assistance to organize assembly in Iran under licence and maybe also localizing the production of some parts...

That would allow them to get some fighters in a short time (maybe they could even get initially some older second hand mig29 to be substituted later by newly built mig29k or mig35) and also to learn how to produce and maintain a modern fighter...

Russia may have more favourable terms for India. Bigger customer, and less pressure from uncle Sam. But you are right, others are doing it.



And finally, even if foreign planes are bought. Then they could not really fight a war, without a prolonged supply of spare parts. Russia or China, may stop these, in case they disagree with Iran war aims. And want to impose conditions. Therefore parts and weapons, mostly used and needing replacement, must be manufactured in Iran anyway. As must the new installation of all sensitive electronic communications and even Radars. The only condition to accept planes and parts without manufacturing rights, is when war already started, and spares will not deteriorate and be used up immediately.

@garry

The points you raise are correct if accepting the legal framework of the agreement.

However you have, in my mind stated the obvious potential issue post October, that of fear, your response specifically refers to the EU fearing financial and other sanctions for businesses conducting business in Iran - the same can be applied to China and the Russia can it not?

I do not see this as clear cut at all, the opposite in fact. (But hope against hope to be wrong.) The pressure applied to both these countries by the US and israel not to provide such weapons/systems will be immense; there is you will agree, history of Russia bending the knee to such pressure, perhaps China too but I’m not across the specifics.

Any legal framework goes out the window as soon as the American pricks decide it so. That’s the reality of the world in which we live.

crod wrote:@garry

The points you raise are correct if accepting the legal framework of the agreement.

However you have, in my mind stated the obvious potential issue post October, that of fear, your response specifically refers to the EU fearing financial and other sanctions for businesses conducting business in Iran - the same can be applied to China and the Russia can it not?

I do not see this as clear cut at all, the opposite in fact. (But hope against hope to be wrong.) The pressure applied to both these countries by the US and israel not to provide such weapons/systems will be immense; there is you will agree, history of Russia bending the knee to such pressure, perhaps China too but I’m not across the specifics.

Any legal framework goes out the window as soon as the American pricks decide it so. That’s the reality of the world in which we live.

Before november 2013 what you write could have made sense (even if I don't believe it). But post maidan the US and UK invent any stupid protest to add anti russian sanctions that they became a farce...

Furthermore there isn't much remaining that US could sanction without damaging herself more than they can at this point damage Russia...

Furthermore Iran respected the nuclear agreement until US was there too. Their support to Syria had nothing to do with the agreement. So Russia has no reason to refuse to sell aircrafts to Iran if it makes economic sense for them.

If US wants to prevent that they could order 200 Mig35 and 200 su 30 from Russia paying extra for the anticipated delivery and occupy the production lines for a few more years....

[quote="Rodion_Romanovic"]

crod wrote:
Before november 2013 what you write could have made sense (even if I don't believe it). But post maidan the US and UK invent any stupid protest to add anti russian sanctions that they became a farce...

Furthermore there isn't much remaining that US could sanction without damaging herself more than they can at this point damage Russia...

Furthermore Iran respected the nuclear agreement until US was there too. Their support to Syria had nothing to do with the agreement. So Russia has no reason to refuse to sell aircrafts to Iran if it makes economic sense for them.

If US wants to prevent that they could order 200 Mig35 and 200 su 30 from Russia paying extra for the anticipated delivery  and occupy the production lines for a few more years....

Hmm, not sure it’ll play out like that and I think that you’re underestimating the screws that can be turned: fiscal, people and organisations. None of which would harm the US at all but make life very uncomfortable for those targeted.

As I say, I’ll be delighted if wrong, ecstatic even. The thoughts of 400 modern aircraft in Iran along with better aaa systems will put the local bully boys back in their box. That’ll please me most.

Someone mentioned needing nukes to deter attacks ks from carrier groups and naval aviation...anyway, the easiest way to keep carrier based aircrafts away is a squadron of su30 armed with supersonic anti ship missile. If I am not mistaken there is a version of onyx/Brahms that can be launched from a Su30. The only issue for this is that the export version of such missiles must have their range limited to under 300 km, for the Missile Technology Control Regime (MCTR)...

Yes attacking carriers is always a more cost effective way of fighting it's yet unlaunched fighters than individual fighters that have been allowed to launch. But how is this best done? Using planes is difficult. Since the Americans can now launch new long range stealth delta wing  light bombers from carriers, with UAV refuelling. This I think puts the carriers beyond range of our fighters. Unless similar numbers and tactics and refuelling is possible for interceptors , before they can even reach the carriers. Then we are into the parity numbers game. And they win this one too. Another assymetric way is to use much cheaper smart torpedo or unmanned submarines. That I suggested, and it seems Iranians listened to. These are asymmetric. Produced in Iran, with existing technology. And can be planted in the Indian Ocean, for months or years in advance. Activated to kill Carriers, thousands of miles away. This is what I called the critical path. Where money should be spent.

But in case this tactic fails. Or Yanks use land bases for air attack. Say from Saudi. Then same problem. Numbers game. They win the symmetrical battle of plane against plane. In this situation Iran should put up only a limited conventional  psychological defence. Say with the help of Russia. A limited defensive number of agile planes. For short range work. But ultimately it comes to nukes. Like it or not.


https://en.mehrnews.com/news/159263/Iran-gets-admission-into-Uncrewed-Underwater-Vehicle-elite-club

George1 wrote:Why Russia and China haven't sell new fighter jets to Iran yet?

There is a UN mandated weapons embargo on Iran, ending on October 18th, 2020.

After that only unilateral sanctions from US will remain, and those do not affect Russia or China... only planes produced in america or with American content...

George1 wrote:

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

George1 wrote:Why Russia and China haven't sell new fighter jets to Iran yet?

There is a UN mandated weapons embargo on Iran, ending on October 18th, 2020.

After that only unilateral sanctions from US will remain, and those do not affect Russia or China... only planes produced in america or with American content...

so contracts should get already prepared

MiG-35 will be good for Iran. It will help also MiG factory

yeah, most probably they already discussed it but they cannot announce any agreement or sign any contract before October 18th.
Theoretically they could even start the delivery the day after signing a contract, if they had some airplanes in the desired configuration ready (e.g. some mig29 upgradedto export SMT standard while they wait for the newly produced mig29M/mig35 to be built). This is not the common practice, of course, but could be an expedient due to the particular situation...


For the moderators... would it be possible to move the f16 speculations to another thread? A couple of posts would have been ok, but now it seems to have become main topic for the Iranian air force

crod wrote:

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Before november 2013 what you write could have made sense (even if I don't believe it). But post maidan the US and UK invent any stupid protest to add anti russian sanctions that they became a farce...

Furthermore there isn't much remaining that US could sanction without damaging herself more than they can at this point damage Russia...

Furthermore Iran respected the nuclear agreement until US was there too. Their support to Syria had nothing to do with the agreement. So Russia has no reason to refuse to sell aircrafts to Iran if it makes economic sense for them.

If US wants to prevent that they could order 200 Mig35 and 200 su 30 from Russia paying extra for the anticipated delivery  and occupy the production lines for a few more years....

Hmm, not sure it’ll play out like that and I think that you’re underestimating the screws that can be turned: fiscal, people and organisations. None of which would harm the US at all but make life very uncomfortable for those targeted.

As I say, I’ll be delighted if wrong, ecstatic even. The thoughts of 400 modern aircraft in Iran along with better aaa systems will put the local bully boys back in their box. That’ll please me most.

Ah no, the 200 + 200 was a joke from me. I just meant that if US really wants to prevent that Russia sells  mig29 and su30 to Iran, they can just order a very large amount number of aircrafts from Russia and pay extra for early delivery... in such case all mig29/35 and su30 production lines will be occupied for export aircrafts to US (except of course in case of needs from the russian air force) for many years...

In the case of Iran, I could imagine in the best case they could get enough modern aircrafts to replace the F4 and F5 (I believe they have about 60 of each type), and across many years...

Jokes apart, Russia committed some mistakes in the past, partially compromising their credibility, when, under Medvedev, they refused to deliver the s300 (to please the US) even if the contract was already signed and agreed since several years. The s300 delivery was then finalised after several years, by Putin's order, when US was even more aggressive against IRAN.

So the only plausible reason for Russia to refuse an order for migs or sukhoi planes from Iran is if they cannot agree on the payment... but even that is not likely, as Iran can  pay via oil, natural gas, or agricultural products (especially fruits), and as mentioned Russia already used barter schemes for the sales of military aircrafts

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2017/08/08/sukhois-for-palm-oil-russia-and-indonesia-announce-new-barter-arrangement/

Sorry for the late reply,  but your post was lost among the f16 mess

However you have, in my mind stated the obvious potential issue post October, that of fear, your response specifically refers to the EU fearing financial and other sanctions for businesses conducting business in Iran - the same can be applied to China and the Russia can it not?

The thing is that the military equipment Iran will want to buy from either Russia or China are government entities and are already under full US sanction, and in terms of effecting their ability to make international sales by attacking potential customers and forcing them to not buy... they are already doing that...

So China and Russia have nothing at all to lose and a new loyal customer to gain.

I do not see this as clear cut at all, the opposite in fact. (But hope against hope to be wrong.) The pressure applied to both these countries by the US and israel not to provide such weapons/systems will be immense; there is you will agree, history of Russia bending the knee to such pressure, perhaps China too but I’m not across the specifics.

I suspect the agreement not to provide Iran with S-300s was largely based on promises of hundreds of billions of dollars in contracts to supply Saudi Arabia with all sorts of weapons... and the UAE etc etc... which made sense as they need replacements for a lot of stuff lost in Yemen... but as usual the contracts and sales never came through.

I don't think they would fall for that again. It was at a time when Russia still thought they could be partners if not friends, but the US wont even consider that... or if they did it would only be to use Russia against China and Iran etc etc.

Thanks to US sanctions Russia doesn't have that much trade with the US and a lot less with the US than they used to.

Also thanks to US sanctions and related EU sanctions the amount of western components in Russian military products is dropping to zero so any say they might have previously had is disappearing rapidly. BTW the huge irony is that this Covid scare has shown the west how much many of their essential services and systems rely on cheap imports...

Any legal framework goes out the window as soon as the American pricks decide it so. That’s the reality of the world in which we live.

Russias main problem is that they follow the rule of law, while America just hires bullshit lawyer scum to find loopholes to get their way.

In this case Russia is following the rules of the agreement and of the US threatens EU members to complain about Iran not complying with the agreement (In protest of there lack of promised investment which they are entitled to do by the way) then the situation will basically be that the EU and US are not complying with the agreement, yet demand penalties on Iran because of that... At the very least the Iranians, Chinese and Russians can just do what the Americans and rip up the agreement and make their own arrangement instead. China would be a bigger market and a rather better trade partner for Iran anyway and both Russia and China could offer weapon options the west would not consider offering and even if they did what use would one Rafale be... because that is how much they cost.

Simply the sale would not go through on the numbers they could afford to field of western aircraft alone... and it is more than just aircraft they need.

cheers cheers cheers

Most of the longest posts were mine....

So the only plausible reason for Russia to refuse an order for migs or sukhoi planes from Iran is if they cannot agree on the payment... but even that is not likely, as Iran can pay via oil, natural gas, or agricultural products (especially fruits), and as mentioned Russia already used barter schemes for the sales of military aircrafts

Military contracts often include clauses that are odd... for instance half payment in a locally produced product, and the demand that the company that wins the contract invests a similar amount of the full contract value in the local economy... but then that often produces profit over the long term anyway... investment is not charity...

In my personal opinion Iran should continue focus on Its ballistic missile, UAV/UCAV, and focus on developing ground based equipment IFV, Tanks, ATGW, APC, small arms, Artillery but working with other countries for assistance such as, NK, Belarus, Serbia, Russia, and China.

And for its air force should make a list of what they essentially need to replace with options for rights to produce and/or right to produce spare parts, so if they find themselves in the same situation again they can maintain their airforce a lot easier that is has done in the past.

They could make their homegrown copy of Kowsar building only what they need in light attack aircraft, and make their own advanced trainer (they did try with Dorna/ Simorgh, but only produced a handful since the mid 2000's) of course they could buy rights to Yak-130.

They should upgrade any remaining Su-22 they have with their homegrown upgrade for the aircraft.

Buy IL-76 with rights to produce parts,

Buy TVS-2DTS (AN-2 replacement) buy production and/or parts. (not sure if Iran is still getting knockdown kits from Ukraine on the AN-140 but at least this would give Iran some form of light transport)

Buy Yak-152 and get production rights (they did reverse engineer a F33 Beechcraft Bonanza which they called Parastu however very few been made.

Buy Mi-17 with rights to produce parts, and possibly build. They could be sold rights to produce Mi-14 this would give them ASW heli and Russia did look at restarting this heli, but if Iran started to produce Russia could buy from them at a reduced rate.

Su-30 buy and produce including parts

Mig-29M buy and produce including parts

Buy Mi-28 with parts production rights

Buy Mi-35 with parts production rights

Buy Mi-26 with parts production

Buy Ansat with production rights, including rights to produce Ansat 2RC they can arm them with their own Dehlaviyeh ATGM (Kornet copy) this could replace their Cobra heli, their Toufan 1 & 2 has seen very little production, its Shahed 285
attack heli has seen only one prototype since 2009, and its Shahed 278 transport only seen 7 produced since early 2000's.

eventual replacement of Su-24, SU-22, HESA and Azarakhsh with Su-34 or they could design a dedicated strike bomber version of Su-30 which would probably be better in terms production and parts rights.

buy and get rights to produce a variety of AA missiles, air to ground, rocket pods, and Buying of Brahmos etc will ensure decent capabilities.

this would ensure a decent airforce with majority of functions covered. and they can main and produce certain aircraft. And this would be a decent boost for Russian companies at a time when oil sales have been low. But this would require some serious investment for Iran but it will be worth it and save them money in the long run. And as stated can pay for these in a variety of ways and it can also be paid such as part cash, part something else, Iran has the following to trade:
Oil, and gas,
Fruits, nuts, spices, meat, cheese, fish,
wool, leather, silk,
Electric appliances, carpets/rugs, copperware/brassware, glassware, ceramics,
medicine,
steel, coal, iron ore, copper, lead, zinc, chromium, barite, salt, gypsum, molybdenum, strontium, silica, uranium, gold and Aluminium.
and of course there is also loans, and various deals for Russian companies to enter the Iranian market.

My opinion is very biased as everyone here knows, I am a fan of Russian equipment and not so much of a fan of western equipment.

I am also pro Iran in current affairs... not because I am a muslim, but because they are clearly being bullied, for reasons that are either not clear or not their fault.

When you boil it all down their major crime is to support the people Israel is victimising in its land grab, and to be honest I support them supporting those people too.

In comparison a few countries in the region and the ones doing the bullying have done much worse and have supported some terrible groups who have done terrible things around the world, so as an excuse to punish 60 million people it is just not valid.

I agree that their ballistic missile programmes seem well worth the money... long and intermediate range..., and UAVs and UCAVs would be very useful too as force multipliers for ground and air and naval forces... all the assistance of air power but with reduced costs and overheads, though not actually replacing air power when the real stuff is needed. Iran has licence produced a lot of products and should keep looking for products that they can make that will be useful for their defence. A bit of cooperation with the countries you mention should boost their potential and allow improvements in both directions... (Projects with India and China and the UAE and Jordan have improved Russian products considerably... simply having a third party demanding better and funding those upgrades means the equipment produced is better and more capable without going silly. For instance the Pantsir could have active radar homing missile seekers in each missile... they have the technology... but that would make it a rather more expensive system to use while not improving performance that much... a tiny radar like that would not be that amazing until it got very close to the target... so it would be better for a tiny fraction of a second than the much bigger radar on the vehicle because of the very high speed of the missile but it would make the system horrendously expensive to actually launch missiles from...

Regarding the Kowsar, Russia is introducing external pods for aircraft to improve air to air or air to ground performance so such targeting pods would be fantastic for light cheap aircraft to boost their performance in certain areas without making the aircraft super expensive... for instance if the target is drones then an air to air targeting pod perhaps combining MMW radar as used on Russian attack helicopters to detect and engage the drones with a thermal sight and digital day/night vision device for identification... and racks for MANPADS weapons or even cannon pods with air burst shells. If the light aircraft is going to come up against enemy aircraft a datalink with ground based air defence... perhaps in a pod to start with... and built in later on, and a self defence EW pod from Belarus with a rack of AAMs hanging underneath it...

An aircraft redesign so the pods can be mounted conformally to the body of the aircraft so the wing pylons are free for ordinance or external fuel... because the F-5 was always a light fighter, it would be easier to convert it into a modern light fighter...

Perhaps spend some money with a Russian fighter company and explore options of new wing shapes to improve performance and allow heavier operating weights and more fuel or equipment being fitted into a larger heavier wing for example. A thicker profile wing won't reduce flight speed too much but could shorten take off and landing runs and increase internal fuel volume without filling up the planes internal spaces and just add lift force. Larger control surfaces could improve handling if that is a problem... it is hard to offer advice without knowing what their experience is with this equipment.

The Su-22 was a solid aircraft and there would be a lot of ways to keep it useful.

The Il-76 would be ideal for Iran, it is an excellent aircraft and a solid performer with newer models getting better and better... (I think we should have them here in NZ but no politically acceptable... we have to have Hercs that can barely reach Australia from New Zealand with a full load... so anywhere we go requires lots of hops. Not being pressurised means you fly through the weather instead of over it... an Il-76 can carry more than twice as much over much greater distances much faster... and they are cheaper to buy than new model C-130s.... and with the same payload weight... say 15 tons they could probably both operate from the same grass airfields... but the Il-76 could fly much much further with it.)

Buy TVS-2DTS (AN-2 replacement) buy production and/or parts. (not sure if Iran is still getting knockdown kits from Ukraine on the AN-140 but at least this would give Iran some form of light transport)

Not familiar with how up to date Iran is with composite materials but this would be a good place to improve their skills... the goal is to make a light capable aircraft as cheap to operate as possible so it can be operated out in the middle of no where without needing highly technical and expensive support... if it can do that then it will be ideal for lots of smaller countries and outback regions of bigger ones...

I would think a strike version of the Su-30 would be a better idea... would be capable and I think many deep strike missions would be better executed with ballistic missiles or cruise missiles or drones rather than manned aircraft...

The range of stuff they could buy is enormous, but the list of stuff they want to buy or will buy will be shorter and will be broken down by priority because they wont be able to do all this at once.

I would see all this as an enormous boost to Iran, but an Iranian might see it as an enormous investment risk... it is important to keep clear Iran and Russia are rational and sensible countries, but they are not best buddies. For whatever reason the Russians delayed delivering of previously ordered S-300 systems to Iran which Iran could see as a betrayal even though they got the systems and those systems should make a serious positive difference for Irans self defence, there is that issue which ruins the gesture. At about that time there was talk of Saudi Arabia buying billions of dollars of new Russian equipment like S-400 and Iskander etc etc which never did eventuate which suggests such promises were made to influence Russia and when it became clear they would not be more than promises the sale went ahead.

Fair enough for Iran to say Russia is not reliable.

But Russia could equally point out that all the international hostility and pressure is coming from the west in general and the US in particular and when Iranian funds were freed up Iran started ordering Boeings, so why would Russia trust Iran? They are clearly mad.

It might be a secret agreement regarding the release of the Iranian funds that they spend a percentage on US products for them to be released... which would be just the sort of thing the Americans would do of course, but how can Iran blame Russia for what they did when Iran is influenced too.

The facts are that Russia and China have a variety of weapons and equipment that would be useful to Iran and both countries probably would have no problems selling to Iran. Can't really say the same about anyone else because any other seller is likely to have the sky dropped on them by the US and her cronies, while Russia and China are like Atlas and are holding up the sky anyway... so no difference.

Russia lost eastern europe as a market so Iran would be a useful addition to countries they can openly trade with and I am sure with recent diversification of the Russian economy that Iran would benefit from trading with them too. The Caspian Sea would be the ideal way to ship goods that the west/US cannot interfere with in both directions.

Now this does not mean Russia and Iran are best buddies and that Russia will defend everything Iran does nor that Iran needs to back Russia up with everything too. This is a trade relationship... Russia wont use this to demand cultural or religious or any other changes in Iran and Iran cannot expect Russia to change culturally or religiously or in any other way. Fair trade. Business and development with both countries improving and developing with no interference in either direction. The polar opposite of what the colonial west offers...

As long as they can maintain good relations, jointly address problems they share and strive to develop future relations that’s a win/win imo.

I just hope the sentiment expressed here proves accurate where Russia and China open the flood gates in weapon sales to Iran.

Iran stuck to its side of the bargain, the yanks chose to disregard their side. Russia has lost out on billions in sales, real Russian jobs and $$$ lost. Send the Iranians a catalogue and tell them to go shopping!

Not wanting to go off on a tangent...but...it’s hard not to think when looking at what’s going on in the mighty USA now and these past couple of years, is this the beginning of the end of the empire. Their cred has been truly trashed right across the globe now (and I’m talking about Europe and beyond where they enjoyed enormous support) but from within where the decay looks almost permanent.

Ah. The shifting sands of politics. Russia needs land route to PG for sea trade, through Iran, more than China needs land route, through Iran, for trade. Because if the west and China United against Russia, apart from Iran, then Russia still has access to the rest of the world. But if Russia and Europe United against China, apart fron Iran. China can still trade with rest of world, by it's coastline. A friend in need, is a friend indeed.

Therefore Iran should buy Russian fighters, rather than Chinese fighters. And best payment is first, fast rail link to PG region. Linking to Caspian to North. And longer term, if feasible, a canal from PG to Caspian for ships. A practical guarantee.Better than words on paper. In return, Russia provides for parts manufacture, to keep planes flying. Another practical guarantee.

The number of planes, should be small. No more than fifty. But able to bring down latest American planes. Since beyond this number, there is no point for Iran to step up the numbers. This force will be a psychological force. To try to force a ceasefire by Iran. Also these small numbers, should not prove a worry for Russians. The range can be short, as another guarantee for Russia. But also more practical for Iran, to use them in defensive air to air role.

Taking out American carriers at longest ranges, can not easily be done with planes. Unless a large force is used. And this proves unpractical. Submarines and smart torpedo, can do this job much better. But the Americans can attack in variety of ways. Including using Saudi airbase. Or using air launched cruise missiles from B52. With extended ranges. Since they have abandoned the arm's treaty.

In this case, It is unavoidable, that Iran develop a detterent. But to reassure Russia, then inspections can be allowed to prove that Russian soil can not be targeted in practice. By targeting electronic programming limitation. As Iranian leaders said recently. IRAN IS VERY CLOSE TO DETTERENCE LEVEL IN DEFENCE.

They have fantastic engineers and designers, but when the head is broken and the wrong projects are stopped or never started and bad projects get the green light for all the wrong reasons then all you are going to get are problems.

The C-17 is a case in point... nothing particularly special about it... they needed an aircraft that big to carry Abrams tanks because their C-141s couldn't carry such weights.

The C-17 was a political project that was designed to be cancel proof... they built factories to make the plane in the constituents of the senators on the committees that decide Pentagon spending... it worked like a house on fire because none of the people in a position to cancel or or block its production would even consider doing so even if the reasons for doing so made sense. Having factories all over the US logistically it was a nightmare and of course the local people working in these factories never built a plane in their lives before this...

For the price of one C-17 you could get 10 or 15 of the old model Il-76s, or 6 to 8 of the brand new Il-476s which would be much more useful...

Most tanks get shipped to where they need to go anyway... it is too expensive to send them by plane except for small numbers... so shipping a few hundred tanks to different places around the globe in case you need some is a much better solution.

US politics seems to be us and them... you can't discuss anything, no compromise... if you don't agree with me you are a tool of Putin... which is supposed to be an insult. Amusing... especially when they are all tools of Israel and Saudi Arabia and rich people anyway...

Taking out American carriers at longest ranges, can not easily be done with planes. Unless a large force is used. And this proves unpractical. Submarines and smart torpedo, can do this job much better. But the Americans can attack in variety of ways. Including using Saudi airbase. Or using air launched cruise missiles from B52. With extended ranges. Since they have abandoned the arm's reaty.

You guys can make mini submarines... would it really be that hard to replace the crew area with a 10 ton HE charge and automate it so that the rest of it is filled with batteries... create a mechanism so that it can be attached to the underhull of a large non military ship like a tanker... connect it to the tanker with a cable to fully charge the batteries so when it is launched it could run for days at low speed and with a simple sonar (aircraft carriers are not that quiet) and the location of the nearest carrier group put in to its autopilot and send it on its way... it can dive down to 400-500m or so depending on the water depths there and just slowly swim towards the enemy carrier in quiet mode... an MAD system will tell you when you are under 100K of metal... at which point you could make it rise to say 20m below the targets hull and boom. With its onboard Sonar it could detect an approaching carrier just based on its prop noise and manouver to be in front of the carrier and let it come to you.

Russia needs land route to PG for sea trade, through Iran, more than China needs land route, through Iran, for trade. Because if the west and China United against Russia, apart from Iran, then Russia still has access to the rest of the world. But if Russia and Europe United against China, apart fron Iran. China can still trade with rest of world, by it's coastline. A friend in need, is a friend indeed.

Such a thing would be useful for Russia but right now most of the money in the world is in the EU and Asia and so Russias North Sea Route is going to be a main traffic artery... a canal through Iran would be expensive and take maybe up to a decade depending on the geography.... I think it would pay for itself and I think land locked countries like Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan would be keen to contribute to such a thing too... in fact I think... being a waterway that Iran essentially controls it would be most valuable to Iran... which is why I would think it would be a good idea all round...

Iran doesn't need thousands of aircraft... what it needs is what the west call force multipliers... an S-300 SAM is a capable system but can only do so much on its own... it has weaknesses... big expensive long range missiles are not efficient against drones or small low flying munitions, but using the S-300 together with other SAMs in an integrated air defence network that the aircraft are connected to so everyone and everything can work together... it means you can do things that 1,000 separate and unconnected S-300s could do.

Russia is interested in negotiating delivery of arms to Iran...

So Mig29, yak130 and su30 are again a serious possibility


https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4343009

Russian Foreign Ministry considers negotiations on arms supplies to Iran possible
2020/05/13

Moscow does not rule out the start of negotiations on the supply of Russian arms to Iran after the UN Security Council embargo was lifted from this country in the coming fall, Zamir Kabulov, director of the second department of the Russian Foreign Ministry , told RIA Novosti . Earlier, Iranian Ambassador to the Russian Federation Kazem Jalali said that Tehran has already received proposals for the supply of military equipment and defensive weapons from several countries.

According to Zamir Kabulov, there are no negotiations on arms deliveries so far, “but they will become quite possible, because the international legal obstacle that exists until October will be removed.”

The regime of restrictions on the supply of arms and military equipment to Iran expires on October 18. The United States has already expressed its intention to work in the UN Security Council on the issue of extending the arms embargo. As US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo emphasized, if these efforts do not bring results, then Washington will "study what are the alternatives to achieve the task." In Moscow, they see no reason to extend the embargo, noting that there was no de jure "arms embargo" against Iran. Arms deliveries were possible before, but only with the permission of the UN Security Council, which no one gave.

“Exactly two years ago, on May 8, 
2018, the United States proudly announced that they were leaving the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action for the Iranian Nuclear Program (JCPOA) and closed the door. Now they are knocking on this door, saying “wait, we forgot to do one thing in the JCPOA. Let us do it and leave again.” This is ridiculous, ”Vasily Nebenzya, the Russian Permanent Representative to the United Nations, told reporters earlier.

Earlier, the American newspaper The New York Times reported that Washington allegedly expects to use a special dispute settlement mechanism provided for by UN Security Council resolution 2231, which accompanied the adoption of the JCPOA (i.e., the Iranian nuclear deal) in 2015. The result of the use of the mechanism could be the restoration of all international sanctions previously applied to Iran.
As Mikhail Ulyanov, Russia's Permanent Representative to international organizations in Vienna, stated in an interview with Kommersant , "an attempt to appeal to resolution 2231 looks cynical, since it is this resolution that the US is undermining, and it is absolutely unconvincing from a legal, political and moral point of view."

GarryB wrote:My opinion is very biased as everyone here knows, I am a fan of Russian equipment and not so much of a fan of western equipment.

That's okay because there are US fanboys who consider everything Western to be great and everything from Russia to be ordinary.

But the problem with this stance is, since you are biased towards Russian weapons you are unable to carry out a clear headed, logical analysis of western military hardware. Because your bias clouds your judgement. Both Russian and US weapons have their flaws. On a number of occasion they have failed to perform the way they are advertised.

F-16s have been shot down over Syria by S-200 but then Pantsir have been blown to bits by western PGMs. Therefore, analyzing Russian and Western weapons objectively without any bias makes far more sense than allowing bias, jingoism to cloud judgement.

F-16s have been shot down over Syria by S-200 but then Pantsir have been blown to bits by western PGMs. Therefore, analyzing Russian and Western weapons objectively without any bias makes far more sense than allowing bias, jingoism to cloud judgement.

You make it sound so easy and so obvious... I would say there is an enormous difference between the use of Israeli owned and operated American kit being used over Syria against what is essentially only Syria... as long as they don't target Russian forces and notify the Russians about what they are doing the Russians don't seem to be responding, so essentially this is Syria vs Israel... which should normally mean Syria getting destroyed wholesale because of the disparity between the forces and of course the fact that the Syrians are busy trying to recover their territory lost to Israeli and US and Turkish supported terrorist groups...

But the very occasional kill of individual Pantsir vehicles that appear to not have missiles loaded that seem to be caught unawares but standoff missile attacks launched from outside Syrian airspace by aircraft that are going to be the core of future HATO air power in the form of super expensive and apparently not so stealthy F-35s who don't come any closer than their standoff weapons and the mountains in neighbouring countries allow their F-16s to manage.

I would say this is evidence that the F-35 is not worth the money and probably the greatest and most capable western air power per capita is really not getting its moneys worth from these super weapons and that if they actually had to pay for them themselves with their own money instead of getting them paid for by the American taxpayer there would be outrage in Israel that they are buying these things.

All sorts of weapons fail, and the fighting in Syria is a rare opportunity for Russia to extensively test its new and existing weapons and some future weapons too in a real testing ground that doesn't really forgive failure...

The difference is that the US drops some bombs on Afghanistan from F-35s and call them a success... separate not linked together... operating essentially alone... Soviet and Russian air defence systems of Syria before they got S-300s shot down 71 of 103 cruise missiles launched at them... BUK and Pantsir systems got between 80 and 95% kill rates, or actually 100% kill rates with multiple engagements (ie not every missile hit a target but all targets were destroyed) ...in comparison in Saudi Arabia not a single Patriot was even launched because they didn't see the drones or cruise missiles coming... Pantsir has shot down enormous numbers of drones in comparison which also proves it is detecting them too.

GarryB wrote:You make it sound so easy and so obvious...

The examples ( S-200, F-16) were used with the sole purpose of demonstrating the capabilities of these systems.

The point that I made, which was lost on you, was the need to introspect the features of a system regardless of whether it is U.S or Russia, Dispassionately. It's only then that you can make meaningful deductions about these systems.

I post article in English language version, so we can all read it well. I wish I could post Persian language version that I found on mashregh news site. Because it is much more comprehensive. But even I do not understand Persian language 100 %. Because I did not speak it much since age 14. So my main language is English. My family also make fun of me sometimes. For making spelling mistakes. But what I say here, is for ears of Iranian leaders and they have translators.........


Here Iran, has strong airforce. Can repair Fleet of different helicopters.


https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2020/06/07/2281019/ten-iranian-military-choppers-return-to-service-after-overhaul

The point that I made, which was lost on you, was the need to introspect the features of a system regardless of whether it is U.S or Russia, Dispassionately. It's only then that you can make meaningful deductions about these systems.

I don't agree with your point.

A US strong fanboy might argue that the selling of F-35 to all its HATO allies is the actual success of the F-35 and that any WWIII conflict with Russia or China such things as fighter planes or fighter bombers will rapidly become irrelevant.

The fact that most HATO countries could not afford to operate sizable and useful numbers of F-35 is also irrelevant because the planes are getting made anyway and LM has already made lots of money on the project as have the bribed politicians and people in America who make the planes. You can whine about it but that is what you get when you want to put made in the USA on the packaging... a terrible idea and concept that goes against all good business practices... you don't scatter production willy nilly all over a country in brand new state of the art factories that have to be built first.

Passion doesn't come in to it at all... if an airforce that so dominates its neighbours as Israel does needs to hide in mountains of foreign countries to launch repeated sneak attacks with expensive long range standoff weapons that very occasionally catches individual vehicles off guard and gets hits then how does that fare for a country like Finland or Poland stirring up a bear by poking it with a stick using air defence systems that would reach into Israel and swat those planes down as they took off from their airfields... and not only that... they appear to be broken and outrageously expensive to buy and to operate, yet their mission profile against a third world country broken by a decade of war that had been supplied with a few up to date systems like Buk and Pantsir, is the same mission profile previous much much cheaper to buy and operate non stealthy aircraft carrying a much bigger load could manage.

They are being sold a lemon and are paying extra for the privilege...

A single engined unified fighter design was supposed to make it cheaper but instead has made it much more expensive and in some cases not affordable...

I wish I could post Persian language version that I found on mashregh news site.

Post the Persian language version... try Yandex translate to translate it...

https://translate.yandex.com/