Turkey relations with US and NATO

Lavrov provided full support.

Hannibal Barca wrote:Lavrov provided full support.

Full support with money or just full support?

Certainly economic support as well. 
They close in for de-dollarisation clearly.

Hannibal Barca wrote:Certainly economic support as well. 
They close in for de-dollarisation clearly.

We aren't giving them anything but moral support.

Isos wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:Certainly economic support as well. 
They close in for de-dollarisation clearly.

We aren't giving them anything but moral support.

Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.

On credit? Might as well put on a t-shirt that says ''I am idiot''. Remember the Ukraine and how that went down?

Money up front. No freebies. If they are against the wall squeeze them for everything they got and then some. This is not just about Turkey but about any country (mine included). Nobody respects suckers. And Russia has been sucker for very long time.

Again, remember the Ukraine... hell, remember entire Soviet period, communist brotherhood and global commie welfare program. That was totally worth it, right?

Like they would ever switch allegiance long term. The moment Erdogan is hanging from a lamppost it will be back to usual. And I doubt new guys would bother with credit payments to Russia.

Isos wrote:

Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.

What bank would back that loan? We might as well give it to them for free when they are headed for hyperinflation.

Isos wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:Certainly economic support as well. 
They close in for de-dollarisation clearly.

We aren't giving them anything but moral support.

Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.

MİG-35 ? Sorry, but we aren't Egyptians. We can't operate F-16 and MİG-35 at the same time.

Once in a generation opportunity for Russia. Don't think there can be such a better tailor made case for break-up....... conditions are almost ideal from a variety of angles. Time to be bold and size the moment or let it wither away...

Europe will go down with the ship, that is, they'll sink first and then break up from the leash as moribund trash.... has been made very clear.

Vladimir79 wrote:

Isos wrote:

Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.

What bank would back that loan?  We might as well give it to them for free when they are headed for hyperinflation.

Any country that tries to leave the reservation (American dominated sphere) is going to head for hyperinflation if they own their currency (the attacks will come, and they will be vicious and persistent). The only saving grace for the European poodles is that they have a common currency in the Euro and can absorb shocks from the threat of American sanctions better but make no mistake none of them would fair any better if they go at it alone (like Turkey) - that be Germany or France (who are even more dependent on the U.S market)..........perhaps worse with the amount of quantitative easing they've been engaged in for almost a decade now and this very dependence. Turkey's trade ties with the U.S are rather small in comparison, so the shocks come with the shorting of the lira, capital flight and scared investors responding to the masters whistle aka lack of direct investment (mainly foreign). And Moscow is no different at all.....hec, the ruble sank just at the mention of new sanctions a week ago, not to mention the earlier gang-up w/ the poodles..... and Russia is a stronger country overall to manage these assaults. The Turks don't have as much luxury as Russians.....strapped for natural resources to satisfy even local consumption.

Moreover to fault Turkey for engaging in perhaps even more sound economic policy than the West for the last 20+ years, as some have tried to suggest, is laughable. The difference between them is that the U.S owns the world reserve currency and the European common market is huge and can sustain these shocks in a similar manner. Voodoo economics all over the place. Please...

So, given the circumstances, the Turks are doing extremely well and should be applauded for having some backbone in them (although it's hard to get raped and say nothing - so that's a perspective but still, others do say nothing). None in Europe have backbone btw. I don't think geopolitically and ideologically speaking, Putin could ask for a better partner from the "Western" block. Dealing with the arrogant neoliberal French and Germans must be a HUGE pain in the @ss. Everytime Putin meets Merkle or Macron the rooms turn to ice. Turkey is close, has a developed economy more or less, educated populace, young - is dependent on Russian trade ties (a lot) and being a Muslim country is actually a bonus here given the threats coming from the ME and Russia's own, and its geolocation is as pristine real estate as there is.... something a whole bunch of dots within Europe don't offer in the slightest... you talk about defense security, economic security and turning the tide on the enemies at your doorstep... please what better gift from heaven?

If you look at the general European rationable....to the submissive and "realist" it's foolish to rebel so in that sense their perspective and opinions are a lost cause - for the only thing they bring to the table is the further continuation of the system of control over their heads until the whole house of cards crashes down. Too integrated, too ideologically aligned, and dependent.

Which is why none in Europe will leave the reservation barring total imminent collapse. Moreover they know they'll be picked apart by the U.S if one were to leave the reservation, and others within the Union itself will fuck them as well trying to triangulate. Hec Poland within the Union triangulates even now and things are at "peace". If you look at it even further aback, it's even more of a benefit Turkey is not part of the boomdangle that is the EU - bunch of tribes with lines on a map separating them... bickering always etc... a mess.

Like I said above, Russia has a once in a lifetime opportunity here. And I hope they were prepared for this - that is, the eventual day Turkey could fray away from NATO ..... with a plan to integrate it to Russia's sphere of influence and integrate with it economically more so than now (aka the offering and reassurances to your new close partner). I do hope back in Moscow they weren't caught by surprise and are now rushing to draft strategies as the "situation develops" - aka one-step behind. To fuck the fuckers at your door-step you dictate the steps taken first, and as their predictable response comes in, however severe, you respond and set the terms again, and again. A big task will be convincing China to help because Russia's economic and eco-diplomacy clout alone is not up to the task. Everything always needs a push - Russia must provide that push here... how? That's a different topic matter that encompasses a comprehensive review of the situation with many experts chiming in to develop a strategy (with knowledge I don't possess).... one thing is certain - the push must come or the pull will pull back. Limbo is incompetence. But this is wishful thinking knowing full well how naked the Russians were caught with Ukraine and Syria. We'll see. I'll get to live it at least.

The benefits Russia will give will be in form of both political and economic through means of energy deals, transit routes and possibly other civil technology in Co production. It won't be banking like China will do.

miketheterrible wrote:The benefits Russia will give will be in form of both political and economic through means of energy deals, transit routes and possibly other civil technology in Co production. It won't be banking like China will do.

It can be all things as trade ties mature over time and expand. Obviously now that seems out of the picture. But that's not the future of Eurasian integration - at least not what I picture in the realm of possibilities. The more Russia grows, the more it can do but it will not grow in isolation, and contained like it's now it will grow too slow. In that sense the Americans and their poodles (mainly Germany's cabal but others from the EU elite as well) have been very effective in their strategy..... for the Germans and Frenchies don't want an explosive Russian economic gravitas to break their little happy Union where they milk everyone else unimpeded (sucking the Anglo's on Foreign Policy is a very low price to pay to keep their kingdom). Which is why they were on board with Ukraine and will keep it cold as long as it's possible.... (plus they set the country back decades so the damage is done - hopefully Russian elites never forget that about their EU partners - as cold of a dagger as it ever will be).

No matter how much the other poodles cry the sanctions are hurting them back...mainly Italy and other insignificants - the coldness in ties will persist. To those that really matter and have power in the EU, the cost is insignificant to the Russian threat. Now the new developments of course with Trumpie and his supporting cabal is that some elites in NA are OK with extracting more in "concessions" from the "vassals"...so the EU is throwing a small hissy fit and coddling with Russia to make big lover jealous....Putin will take any opening but it should not be seen for more than what it's. As soon as a neoliberal takes hold of the reigns in the divided NA elite, with the soft Obama/Bush touch, BFFs forever will be back in the fold. The question is can the ships be held steady for Trumpie's term or terms.

Of course future can be anything. But currently, what I mentioned is most likely for near future

miketheterrible wrote:Of course future can be anything. But currently, what I mentioned is most likely for near future

Indeed just saying the potential is what really makes it an endeavor worth fighting for, and investing in...... the short term outlook invites inaction and lack of commitment - "a bit more of the same". In this sense it should be seen as a strategic investment....it simply is. The timing is what makes it such a pressing matter.

Politically and in the security sphere however, the benefits are immense and immediate.

ATLASCUB wrote:
Indeed just saying the potential is what really makes it an endeavor worth fighting for, and investing in...... the short term outlook invites inaction and lack of commitment - "a bit more of the same". In this sense it should be seen as a strategic investment....it simply is. The timing is what makes it such a pressing matter.

Politically and in the security sphere however, the benefits are immense and immediate.

We are doing everything that could be considered low risk support. What we won't do is put up billions in capital that can be hacked at by the whims of the US when Trump decides to write his next tweet. The immediate term outlook for the lira is nothing but down even if the US stops kicking the Brunson football. Everything Turkey has done this week to shore up the lira are short term fixes that will bring the house of cards crashing down even faster than it would have without sanctions. The Turkish CB has to raise interest rates if they wan't to stop the fall of the lira and even that is an intermediate fix, they need to import less and need fiscal tightening so they don't have to print so much money. Regardless of what they do, the Turkish economy is headed for recession and if they don't raise interest rates, hyperinflation.

Just a fresh-off-the-press example of the countless low key propaganda hit pieces going on in U.S media regarding Turkey...

https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/08/18/turkish-warships-harass-and-intimidate-cypriot-fishermen-in-international-waters/

Turkish warships are accused of harassing Greek Cypriot fishermen in international waters, threatening to tow boats and take crews prisoner.

Warships commanded by the Islamist government in Ankara are reported to have approached a Cypriot fishing boat belonging to the ‘Ta Psarokaika’ company at 2 in the morning.

Hush hush when the vassal is obedient...when not... well....

ATLASCUB wrote:Just a fresh-off-the-press example of the countless low key propaganda hit pieces going on in U.S media regarding Turkey...

https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/08/18/turkish-warships-harass-and-intimidate-cypriot-fishermen-in-international-waters/

Turkish warships are accused of harassing Greek Cypriot fishermen in international waters, threatening to tow boats and take crews prisoner.

Warships commanded by the Islamist government in Ankara are reported to have approached a Cypriot fishing boat belonging to the ‘Ta Psarokaika’ company at 2 in the morning.

Hush hush when the vassal is obedient...when not... well....

Cyprus is not a member of NATO so the only thing that could be used to stop Turkey is an EU battlegroup, at least until Turkey is kicked out of NATO.

No one cares about Cyprus except the Greeks. This is all threat posturing of a potential pivot by the Americans to now suddenly care. One of the arenas from which they'll attack Turkey from. Oil from Iran being another as an excuse to sanction the country to hell and back.

The Greeks are ecstatic about it, as they've been forgotten for decades by Washington (and everyone for that matter) as it cared for its partner Turkey more so than them. So they'll welcome this and any other developments with open arms and actively work to create schisms.

The recent cooling of relations between the Greeks and Russia are all connected to this ongoing rift (and more) as Russia gets closer to Turkey - official excuses are public masks. The Greeks could care less about their relations with Moscow if they could secure Washington patronage and tutorship. In that sense, they're working to prove their worth.

Russia will have a hard time trying to balance this out...I don't think it can nor should it seek to do so other than at a superficial level. Greece is not as important as Turkey, not even close.

Fresh from the paper of record:

The West Hoped for Democracy in Turkey. Erdogan Had Other Ideas.

Turkey’s descent into authoritarianism and crisis has destroyed whatever hopes remained that the country’s president might serve as a force for moderation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/business/west-democracy-turkey-erdogan-financial-crisis.html

Anyone with a lick of understanding of propaganda knows that his a thin veil regime change hit piece. I'm enjoying the onslaught.... so textbook, so automatic, so, predictable.

ATLASCUB wrote:Fresh from the paper of record:

The West Hoped for Democracy in Turkey. Erdogan Had Other Ideas.

Turkey’s descent into authoritarianism and crisis has destroyed whatever hopes remained that the country’s president might serve as a force for moderation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/business/west-democracy-turkey-erdogan-financial-crisis.html

Anyone with a lick of understanding of propaganda knows that his a thin veil regime change hit piece. I'm enjoying the onslaught.... so textbook, so automatic, so, predictable.

Some years before:

MİG-35 ? Very Happy Sorry, but we aren't Egyptians. We can't operate F-16 and MİG-35 at the same time.

It would be a problem that solves itself... if you bought MiG-35s you would lose support for your F-16s and they would quickly become unusable... ask Venezuela.

What you should do is to publicly outline all the sanctions imposed by the US over this Pastor issue and then say that he clearly is much more important than he appeared to be before.

This means that he is clearly hiding something so the obvious way forward is to force him to talk, and you can do that with the various waterboarding and other torture methods used by and endorsed by the US...

If he still does not talk then put him in high security prison in solitary confinement until he admits to his guilt... and when he admits his guilt then give him the death penalty for making you look like the bad guys.

Also get him to confess he poisoned the Skripals et all in the UK...

Witnesses reverse their testimonies in Brunson case - live blog

Three witnesses withdraw statements against American pastor Andrew Brunson amid ongoing hearing after reports of a secret deal for the release of Brunson.

https://ahvalnews.com/andrew-brunson/witnesses-reverse-their-testimonies-brunson-case-live-blog

Turkish court frees American pastor, but issues remain with United States

A Turkish court on Friday freed American pastor Andrew Brunson, incarcerated on terrorism charges for two years, sentencing him to time served and lifting his travel ban so that he can return to the United States.

https://ahvalnews.com/andrew-brunson/turkish-court-frees-american-pastor-issues-remain-united-states

Very sensible move. No point in continuing to poke a stick at the biggest bully on the block. Wonder what he got in return.

JohninMK wrote:Very sensible move. No point in continuing to poke a stick at the biggest bully on the block. Wonder what he got in return.

Nothing Erdogan will get from it is worth losing the respect of his people who had rallied behind his defiance.

https://ahvalnews.com/andrew-brunson/brunson-released-due-us-pressure-turkey-ft