AK-12 Rifle Discussion

Here's come crappy pictures from the event. The AK-12 in 7.62x39 looks fundamentally the same as the previous incarnations. The handguard looks about to be the only difference.

That is to be expected... the AK-100 series are also basically the same in different calibres but upgraded to the AK-74M standard.

The 223 and 7.62 x 39mm AK12 will be as similar as possible to make them more compatible and simplify construction and training etc.

In particular, on the instructions of Russian Federal Security Service (FSS), the center's specialists develop two special machine for development work (R & D),...

Which sounds to me like a standard rifle for the army... likely in 5.45 x 39mm calibre, plus the modular version which is likely for special forces, or for armies that request multi calibre firearms.

In the interest of the Ministry of Defense of Russia "Izhmash" works on modernization of regular AK-74 and AK "series of one-hundredth" and also develops general military machine on the platform of the AK-12 in the framework of the ROC "Warrior", the state tests which are scheduled for June 2013.

So they are still working on upgrades of existing weapons plus the AK12 for their super soldier system.

Also, the chief designer of "Izhmash" spoke about the establishment of a new caliber ammunition for AK-12 and reported that in September 2013, plans to introduce three new cartridges - one pistol and two automatic - the production of which will be conducted in the ammunition factories within the group "Kalashnikov" .

This is interesting. They are not saying they will use three cartridges, they say they plan to introduce three new cartridges.

They use the 9mm parabellum, in a more powerful form, but they also have their own 9x21mm round that is more powerful still for special use... will they go for more powerful than the 9 x 21mm or will they look at increasing the calibre of the round like the west did with 10mm rounds, or perhaps they are looking at much larger pistol rounds... perhaps 45 calibre, or even a subsonic but heavy projectile 50 cal pistol round.

The two automatic rounds I would suspect are a beefed up 5.45 x 39mm round for medium range light rifles... new high power powder with a heavier projectile at higher speeds, plus a new round to replace the 7.62 x 54mm which might or might not be the 6 x 49mm in a new form.

If they are keeping the 5.45mm then they might just be doing the same to the 9mm Parabellum as they are to the 5.45mm... heavier bullets and more powerful more compact propellent, or they might be three totally new totally unheard of rounds.

Soooo. . A tacticool SVU?

The SVU was designed for police units and is only effective to about 400m or so. This is likely the new model designed for the Army to replace the SVD... with requirements of much better accuracy and range... this is probably a 900-1,000m range rifle.

Here's a thought. If the Russian army were to adopt the AK-12, does that mean the troops would start marching with them? I have to say that'd look a bit odd.

The AK12 doesn't look that much different from an AK-74 from a distance... I doubt most commentators would even notice.

If they adopted the ADS it would stand out as that rifle is a bullpup and much smaller and more compact than the AK12.

I wonder what a "new up to date trigger and firing mechanism" means?

I suspect they have tuned up the trigger and tweaked the mechanism to reduce the lock time... ie the time between when the trigger is pulled and the pin hits the primer.

Would make accurate shooting easier.

What they are describing sounds like the standard barrel making process Izmash has used.

On the new AKs like the AK-100, but perhaps not on the 1962 vintage SVD?

What I wonder is why they didn't use the AK-12 as a base?

I suspect the goal was to get an accurate M14 level rifle... accurate to 1,000m for occasional shots, but in a compact weapon.

The SVD has a very light thin piston rod and a much lighter bolt and bolt carrier so the balanced recoil stuff doesn't really apply... an SVD based rifle is already more accurate as a basis for a sniper rifle than an AK.

I rather suspect they will also have a fairly accurate AK12 in 7.62 x 54mm calibre (and 51 for export) but it will be more of a DMR rifle and a sniper rifle.

What I wonder is why they didn't use the AK-12 as a base?

I suspect that for some missions the sniper might be equipped with a VS-121 and a SMG like Klin/Kedr or Vityaz-SN, while his spotter will have a 6 x 49mm calibre AK12, or 7.62 x 54mm AK12. (note if the spotter has a 6 x 49mm AK12 then the VS-121 will likely be 6 x 49mm too).

In comparison when a sniper team get another mission you might see the sniper with an SV-98 and the spotter with a VS-121 in support.

It would depend on the mission and the shooters preference... I would also suspect that if they go to a new calibre like 6x49mm one of the immediate benefits of the new rimless cartridge would be 15 and 20 and 30 round magazines for the VS-121 and AK12 heavy.

Are you sure it's not just the stock that is made of aluminum alloy, or is it the stock has aluminum bedding in it?

It is certainly possible they might be talking about al bedding, but I don't think a change to an aluminium stock would reduce costs or improve accuracy much. It sounds to me that a change to an aluminium alloy receiver is what is making it cheaper to make and reducing the deformation due to changes in temperature. The wooden and synthetic stocks are likely already cheaper than any al equivalent... plus in a very cold country like Russia you don't want a metal stock to lose skin on when the temp drops below 10 below.

If it is being tested by the Ministry of Defence in Russia then there is a good chance that it could be adopted over other rifles like the AN-94 and AK-107... both of which are part of the super solider program they are working on.

These new rifles might be adopted by the special forces only or they might be adopted more widely.

They have mentioned a modular version of the AK12... ie

Host: Why is the AK-12 was not originally made ​​replacement barrel and bolt group?
Who told you that did not? Yes, these samples did not. But this year, these machines will be made. Spetsavtomaty for special operations forces.

From the link Austin posted above.

... which would be a very valuable addition to the special forces as one rifle you can change to a SMG or an assault carbine or even DMR with the change of a barrel and bolt would be very useful. A mission where you are heading for a village to take out enemy forces could involve long range shooting outside (ie 200-300m) where a full length rifle barrel would be required like an AKS-74, followed by use inside a large apartment block where a short barrel AKS-74U like weapon might be useful. Carrying two complete weapons might not be an option but carrying barrels of different lengths would hardly be a problem... and well worth the extra weight.

It would also mean the soldier has one base weapon for every job with the barrel and bolt set for different roles... for a Russian special forces person a 5.45 x 39mm, a 9 x 39mm, and a 12 gauge barrel and bolt kit with short and long barrels in each calibre would be ideal... especially with suppressors fitted.

That means for a special forces team member instead of having a VSS/AS, AK-74M, AK-105, AKS-74U, Saiga-12, and Vityaz-SN, he could simply have an AK12SN with different barrel and bolt kits... one weapon to learn to use/maintain/buy.

Also:

Russia to Finalize Kalashnikov Merger in September

IZHEVSK, May 31 (RIA Novosti) – The Kalashnikov Corporation, which will absorb major Russian small-arms makers, must be registered by September 19 when the country celebrates the Day of Arms Makers, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said.

Rogozin, who oversees the Russian defense industry, proposed a merger between Izhmash and Izhmekh, which are both located in the city of Izhevsk, in November last year. He later suggested that some other small-arms manufacturers should join the corporation under the famed Kalashnikov brand.

“We must set foot on a finishing line…and have the corporation registered as a legal entity by the time we celebrate the Day of Arms Makers in September,” Rogozin said on Thursday at a meeting on setting up the Kalashnikov Corp.

Rogozin stressed that at the beginning of its existence the new corporation will prioritize consolidation of weapon design ideas and modernization of production equipment.

The company will produce both weapons and ammunition for them, particularly armor-piercing and explosive rounds, Rogozin said.

© RIA Novosti.

The legendary Kalashnikov assault rifle

Izhmash has been manufacturing Kalashnikovs since the world-famous assault rifle first went into mass production in 1949, while Izhmekh is best known for producing Makarov and Yarygin pistols.

However, both companies have been recently experiencing financial difficulties and a sharp drop in production output.

The government is now hoping to revive them by merging them under the new brand.

Mikhail Kalashnikov, the designer of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, has personally authorized the use of his name for the new corporation.

http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20130531/181430767/Russia-to-Finalize-Kalashnikov-Merger-in-September.html

So the bold bits are interesting as they will pool resources, but also reduce the different types of products and optimise their tooling and production facilities.

The fact that they will also develop their own ammo suggests to me that they will be responsible for making "sniper" ammo and specialist rounds like underwater ammo, while the traditional ammo makers will make the bulk of the ammo.

From the link Austin provided above:

Presenter: Which store would be full-time for the AK-12: 30, 50 or 60 rounds? And will the regular drum shops?
The main magazine for AK-12 is likely to remain a traditional 30 round magazine. By AK-12 developed short stores in 20 rounds, 30 round magazine. Work is underway to test the 60 charger box magazine, and we master the production of large-capacity drum magazine almost 100 rounds of ammunition.

So the 60 round mag is still in testing but the 95 round drum is ready for production.

Also:

Host: What do you think about the scheme bullpup? She has prospects?
Of course, it does. VKS built under the scheme bullpup. NE rifle, created by me in Tula, was also built under the scheme Bull - Dad, automatic AL-12.7
Here, work is underway to create a machine under the scheme bullpup.

So the VKS 12.7 x 55mm suppressed sniper rifle by KBP...

The NE rifle? The original says ВСВ винтовка, or VSV Vintovka... S in a rifle designation generally means sniper... unless it is for folding stock, and vintovka is rifle... perhaps this is a bullpup version of the VSS sniper rifle in 9 x 39mm?

He just said he developed it... he didn't say it was successful, though it might be in use as a type of Groza like rifle?

And AL-12, another KBP weapon in 12.7 x 55mm.

He didn't mention the ADS, but mentions there is another bullpup weapon in development... clearly the VS-121.

It will be interesting as during the merger things will disappear and projects will merge... they probably don't even know themselves what they will look like next year.

Regarding them making their own ammo... perhaps the new Kalashnikov company might make the new 6 x 49mm calibre ammo and other sniper ammo?

There's going to be at least 30 prototype of the AK-12 for the state tests that are going to be conducted next month, so the finalized AK-12 could be radically different from what we've seen.

It will likely be a modular weapon, so they will likely provide SMG, Carbine, Assault rifle, LMG, and designated marksman rifle models as well as specialist rifles/guns in 12 gauge, 9 x 39mm and perhaps a new 6 x 49mm calibre in addition to the standard 5.45mm calibre.

The SMG, Carbine, Assault Rifle, and Light Machine Gun models would use the same bolt and magazine... just different barrel lengths and would be the equivalent of the AKS-74U, the AK-105, the AKS-74M, and the RPK-74. The DMR model could be chambered for 6 x 49mm or equivalent new calibre, that may or may not require the larger heavier rifle model in the 7.62 x 51mm version.

Would be interesting for the Russian special forces to have AK12SN rifles that would allow them to use 5.56mm ammo when working with NATO... but I suspect they will prefer using updated 5.45mm ammo, perhaps with a higher muzzle velocity and new clean burning consistent more energetic powder.

This is a doctored image... I know because I changed it.

The top rifle has been changed to make it look like it has a balanced recoil mechanism and to be fitted with the new 95 round drum they are working on.

Note it takes up less space than a standard 30 round mag so you can adopt a lower firing profile without sacrificing ammo capacity.

Bear in mind that it will likely have the traditional problems of a drum mag.... ie expensive and rare, makes more noise (ie ammo will rattle), and of course not really compatible with existing webbing so difficult to carry large numbers of them.

Based on magazine curve I suspect the captions indicating the second rifle down being a 7.62 x 39mm calibre to be true due to mag curvature.



This pic shows the export model AK12s... rifles and carbines in 7.62 x 39mm, 223, and the 7.62 x 51mm rifle calibre weapons.

For a representation of Russian service weapons there is this:



Which shows the standard rifle (ie AK-74M in 5.45mm calibre), the carbine for Paratroopers and Naval Infantry (AK-105 in 5.45mm calibre), and the compact model for crew, snipers, RPG crew, etc (AKS-74U in 5.45mm calibre). The next weapon down shows the standard rifle with the underbarrel grenade launcher fitted, and finally the LMG model (RPK-74 in 5.45mm calibre) with the old style mag.

Russian Army to Receive New Kalashnikov Assault Rifles in 2014

MOSCOW, September 17 (RIA Novosti) - Various modifications of a new Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle as well as a host of other small arms will be put in service with the Russian armed forces in 2014, a senior government official said.

“In 2014, the Russian army will start receiving new assault rifles, handguns, machine guns and sniper rifles, including 5.45-mm and 7.62-mm variants of the Kalashnikov AK-12 assault rifle,” Deputy Chairman of the Military-Industrial Commission, Oleg Bochkarev, said in an interview with Echo Moskvy radio on Monday.

Development of the AK-12 began in mid-2011. The new weapon retains the overall layout and features of the AK-74, in service with the Russian army since the 1970s, but features several modifications and ergonomic changes.

The new assault rifle has being developed as a basic platform for nearly 20 different modifications of the weapon.

The rifle features three firing modes: single shot, three-shot burst and automatic fire. The muzzle of the AK-12 has been designed to shoot foreign-standard barrel-mounted grenades.

The weapon is also equipped with Picatinny rails to mount optical, and night sights, grenade launchers, target indicators and other special equipment.

The AK-12 has a folding stock, and a height-adjustable heelpiece. The weapon can be used by both left-handed and right-handed people, and can be easily handled with one hand.

The state trials of the AK-12 assault rifle are slated for the fall of 2013.

So they haven't had the second lot of trials but are putting it into service next year.

This suggests the problems from the first trials were not that important and they are clearly confident they can be dealt with... so cosmetic problems rather than fundamental ones...

I also suspect they are working on different versions concurrently and the modular family weapons will be ready next year which was what the delay was really all about.

It doesn't surprise me... they didn't design these weapons in a vacuum, they got special forces operators to talk to them about what they liked and what they didn't like about the AK and then they made those changes.

In many ways it was pre-approved as the actual user had all the input into the design, so of course they wont need too much testing... no doubt they already tested it quite a bit... the last test, the changes were probably to ensure compatibility with existing support equipment, or to reduce production costs or something that the bean counters wanted...

From a special forces operators perspective these should be excellent as now they can have long or short barreled weapons in a range of calibres all based on the same controls mounting relevant equipment and sights.

So for example a 9x19mm version (Vityaz-SN+) might only need a red dot sight, while a 9 x 21mm version with ammo commonality with the SR-1, SR-2, and SR-3 weapons might need a x1 and x4 power scope for slightly longer range engagements, whereas the 5.45mm short barrel carbine might include a suppressor to eliminate muzzle flash for use inside and or at night, while longer barrel models could be used to extended ranges and the longest 5.45mm barrel used for a light light machinegun, while a 7.62 x 54mm long barrel model might be used in the LMG role with the PKP Pecheng operating in the portable medium machine gun role.

A 7.62 x 54mm AK-12SN could be used as a designated marksman rifle with the VS-121 as its bullpup replacement for the SVD in semi auto and the SV-98 as its replacement in bolt action, while extended range sniping would use the SV-338.

Special forces might add 9 x 39mm models to replace the AS and VSS, and 12.7 x 55mm models of longer range and better penetration performance.

For most standard soldiers I suspect the short barrel, carbine barrel, rifle length barrel, and long barrel models in 5.45 x 39mm will be standard... replacing the AKS-74U (crew served weapons), AK-105 (VDV and Naval Infantry), AK-74M, and LMG (RPK-74), while in 7.62 x 54mm or perhaps the new 6 x 49mm, a long barrel DMR equivalent to the SVD for use by soldiers operating with snipers equipped with SV-99 or SV-338 rifles.

Everything would be fine if the guy would not talk about how inferior American stuff is- he really discredits himself by doing so,

At least foreign equipment is mentioned. With US TV channels US equipment is described as being the best in the world and no other foreign equipment is mentioned in comparison.

In many ways the SVD is a very good rifle and was the first custom designed sniper rifle (as opposed to modified service rifles or civilian bolt action rifles).

Its accuracy is probably the only feature that lets it down in comparison with its western equivalents, but with the correct ammo it is not that bad at reasonable ranges.

These battlesuits look clumsy as hell. But it's just me light infantry guy talking

The original systems were over 36kgs, I would say they have been greatly improved and will continue to get better with operational experience.

Russia should not compare their products with American ones. Future soldier programs are more developed by Europeans than Americans anyway. Not to mention small arms.

They (the Russian kit makers) were given the challenge of making new kit for the Russian soldier that is as good as or better than NATO equivalents.

By stating it is better than American stuff they are just saying they made what they were asked to make.

And yes, of course a lot of this stuff will get lost at the first opportunity... the least useful and heaviest stuff first, but the fact that they are now designing kit together as a system rather than individual bits of kit is a huge step forward.

The first stuff will not be perfect, but they have tested FELIN and likely other systems as well and I think most of it will be good stuff.

This kit is standard kit for everyone... not just special forces, who will likely have different kit for their different needs.

The kit will be adapted to the role, so a sniper will likely have equipment and systems that a standard rifleman will not have for example.

I suspect most of the stuff will be left on board the vehicle most of the time as it will not be needed in every situation.

Those computers will be encrypted and failure to give the right password will likely give the enemy little useful information... or false passwords might give false information and initiate an immediate airstrike/artillery strike on the emitting computer.

I want to see those pretty models do same things as maroon beret cadets do while being fully loaded with all that gucci stuff.

A lot of the stuff will not be critical and will likely be left behind on a mission where wading through mud is likely. And those clothes horses are just that...

I'm being sceptical as I was 10 years ago when I've seen future soldier projects popping out. For example, German Gladius systems became outdated by the time soldiers started get them. I only see these future soldier programs good for fighting illiterate cave people at luxury of having full tactical superiority and no need to travel on foot. What happens if this futuristic squad gets ambushed and eliminated and opponent takes squad commanders computer with default root (if we presume that MSVS os is being used). They can access everything, check other unit movements and rain artillery on them or do other harm.

The problem of data security is for everyone... do you think schools should not have computers and internet connections because certain geeks can access porn via their school computer? Computers are becoming part of front line war... like it or not... every soldier has a weapon they can use to destroy their own computers if needs be. Tape an RGN to a palm top and pull the pin... they wont be hacking that any time soon.

A signal from a group that has been taken out could be a helo rescue trap, but if they don't know the passwords then obviously you have to make a call.

Nothing new really... the Vietnamese tried all sorts of things during the Vietnam war to get the rescue aircraft into a trap... including not capturing downed US aircrew but sitting back and waiting for the rescue aircraft to come. They even had soldiers infiltrate the south vietnam forces where the spy would be in a fully loaded helo with other troops and would quietly slip the pin from a live grenade or two while inside the cabin.

Not having good communications wont stop the enemy trying to use dirty tricks.

I don't want to be an arse and I salute such improvements, but I have seen other nations put all equipment You can imagine on one soldier and call it future soldier with big words that lead to nothing. Russian at least showed it more realistic, with full squad with different equipment.

It is good to be a bit cynical... making the soldier carry around enormous amounts of stuff he really doesn't need is something to avoid.

Treating the kit a soldier has to carry as a system with different components for different roles means you can be much more efficient because some components can be combined and integrated so that fewer separate things are needed to get the job done... and that is the focus... equipment to help get the job done... not lots of tacticrap to look cool in the photos.

Can't wait to see these new weapons being delivered to Russian army.

Agreed... I am looking forward to seeing the AK12SN and how the multicalibre system works.

Even just being able to carry a long barrel and a short suppressed barrel would be useful for me as a hunter... while walking though tussock grass I wont see most targets till I am right on top of them so a great long barrel is a hindrance, but as I climb hillsides I get a much better view of greater distances so a longer barrel suddenly becomes much more useful.

Equally when hunting rabbits quite often at close range a rabbit might appear that is very close so a relatively short barrel shotgun calibre is useful, while on the thinly covered hill tops I can see rabbits much further away than I can hit with a short barrel shotgun, so a 22WMR or even a 17WMR calibre rifle would become useful.

To be honest a Saiga with a built in 17WMR rifle mounted under it where the Saiga in 12 gauge is a bullpup semi auto and has a 5 shot box mag and the 17WMR has a 20-30 shot curved box mag and is simple compact pump action weapon would be ideal.

Here is rough knock up of what I mean for the Saiga 12 gauge and Sobol manually operated .22WMR rifle... not the Sobol is used for biathlons and one version has a removable buttstock so fitting pic rails on top of it and fitting the Saiga with rails to carry it would not be that huge a problem:



With the original weapons being:



and

They have been through several systems, the current system is called Ratnik 2 or something... now they probably haven't had an intimate look at the American system as a complete system, but they have been given a careful look at FELIN and they seem to be choosing their own systems over the French system.

Whether the Russian system is better than the US system or not is irrelevant... the Russian military wouldn't get the choice between the two systems anyway, and of the other military forces that can afford such systems few would have the political option of one or the other... it would be a political choice rather than a performance based choice... Australia/Canada/New Zealand would pick the US system given the choice of the two but there is no real choice.

BTW don't be too hard on him Seph... from a fan perspective we want all the coolest toys, but out in the field where you actually have to carry this stuff it is a different story... you carry ammo and weapons and food...

I remember reading a story from the Russian fighting in Chechnia written by a siberian soldier who talked about the BMP-3 as being pretty useless... the main problem was that the soldiers in the front line unit thought the electronics were useless and removed it all the same way Soviet soldiers did with the ZSU-23-4 Shilka in Afghanistan to carry twice the ammo load... most of the aircraft target tracking equipment was unnecessary anyway.

When they took the electronics out of the BMP-3 however they found they had a problem... the BMP-3 needs its electronics because the low velocity 100mm rifled gun, 30mm high velocity automatic cannon, and 7.62mm PKT coaxial mg all have very different ballistic paths and the electronic fire control system was very necessary to be able to use them properly.

In the case of using the Shilka as a ground support vehicle the ground to air electronics was useless and it made sense to remove it to fit in more ammo. In the case of the BMP-3, or indeed the case of the new Ratnik soldier kit, with it all integrated, you pretty much likely need to keep most of it to make it work.

I suspect there will be a foot patrol kit setup, a descent (ie operating with armour) kit setup, and perhaps even an unmanned armoured vehicle kit setup... the latter being a foot patrol with a vehicle carrying extra ammo and equipment and perhaps extra ammo for heavier weapons that can be carried because of the unmanned light support vehicle.

Ammo like belted 40mm grenades is very heavy, so having it stored in a small vehicle the size of a 4 wheel motor bike so a unit can carry a few hundred rounds instead of 100 or so could be useful... you could even send it ahead to test the ground for mines and electronically jam IEDS.