The Situation in the Ukraine. #24

"On a procurement order from the Russian hybrid military force in the Donbas, a garment factory in Donetsk [in Russia-occupied territory of Ukraine] has delivered a large supply of Ukrainian Armed Forces-style combat uniforms with fake Ukrainian insignia, according to the Information Resistance (IR) group, as reported by Dmytro Tymchuk, the IR coordinator and head of the Center for Military-Political Studies.



“Part of the order – with the insignia of Aidar battalion – has already been manufactured and delivered to the mercenaries, the other part of the order – with the insignia of the Ukrainian Armed Forces brigades [is incomplete yet],” – the statement says.

It reports that patches with “Mykolaiv” and “79” were observed, which are symbols of Ukraine’s 79th Separate Airmobile Brigade based in Mykolaiv."

Source: http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/05/05/92410/#arvlbdata

eehnie wrote:

In my opinion, while there is not a succeding pro-Russian riot in Mariupol, there is low probability to see them succeeding in other places.

At face value from the census figures you quoted then this could be so, but the census figures are not to be trusted as they are not a real indication of who a person really is, no matter what box they tick. I refer to this post I made a few weeks back about the census figures for Odessa and how people ticked box "Ukranian" when they were actually Russian, and on being confronted by with the known facts of their family history admitted that they were in fact Russian, not Ukranian. If these latest census figures were correct, then it needs explaining what has happened to many millions of people who used to be Russian. The only known large population changes are those of Jews due to being murdered by nazis, and then a large exodus of the survivors when Soviet Union broke. Millions of Russians did not leave Ukraine to be replaced by so called Ukranians, they simply started calling themselves Ukranian due to lazyness because they now had a passport that said Ukranian, and because of propaganda telling them they were Ukranian. There is also some semantics being used in that when a person living in Ukraine says they are Ukranian, and this is without regard to passport, that they are saying they are a different person to a Russian, but this is twisting reality. It is no different that if a person in Munich says they are Bavarian, that they are then not German. Until 1871 they were in fact subjects of King of Bavaria and a state called Germany did not exist, but they were still German, Deutsch, by all parameters of origin, language and culture. If after 1945 Germany had been divided more than it was and Bavaria removed, and was still a seperate state, would the citizens of Bavaria not be Deutsch? well of course they would, but in Ukraine reality is ignored or turned on it's head.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t5114p150-the-situation-in-the-ukraine-24#156983

Khepesh wrote:

eehnie wrote:

In my opinion, while there is not a succeding pro-Russian riot in Mariupol, there is low probability to see them succeeding in other places.

At face value from the census figures you quoted then this could be so, but the census figures are not to be trusted as they are not a real indication of who a person really is, no matter what box they tick. I refer to this post I made a few weeks back about the census figures for Odessa and how people ticked box "Ukranian" when they were actually Russian, and on being confronted by with the known facts of their family history admitted that they were in fact Russian, not Ukranian. If these latest census figures were correct, then it needs explaining what has happened to many millions of people who used to be Russian. The only known large population changes are those of Jews due to being murdered by nazis, and then a large exodus of the survivors when Soviet Union broke. Millions of Russians did not leave Ukraine to be replaced by so called Ukranians, they simply started calling themselves Ukranian due to lazyness because they now had a passport that said Ukranian, and because of propaganda telling them they were Ukranian. There is also some semantics being used in that when a person living in Ukraine says they are Ukranian, and this is without regard to passport, that they are saying they are a different person to a Russian, but this is twisting reality. It is no different that if a person in Munich says they are Bavarian, that they are then not German. Until 1871 they were in fact subjects of King of Bavaria and a state called Germany did not exist, but they were still German, Deutsch, by all parameters of origin, language and culture. If after 1945 Germany had been divided more than it was and Bavaria removed, and was still a seperate state, would the citizens of Bavaria not be Deutsch? well of course they would, but in Ukraine reality is ignored or turned on it's head.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t5114p150-the-situation-in-the-ukraine-24#156983

I can understand that some people ethnically Russian try to hide its origin in hostile territory, Fear is free and many people has too much to lose. The numbers that I included are from the 2001 census, but despite the fact that you commented, that is real, also there is people leaving to go to other less hostile places, and there is not new arrival of Russian population. Just the inverse is happening in the areas under pro-Russian governments.

The value of these numbers is that until now we would have been able to predict the places with higher probability of pro-Russian riots becoming successful looking at the numbers of local Russian population. I do not expect it to change in the future because if there is not enough Russian population in some place, it is difficult that a pro-Russian riot can be successful. There is a correlation between linguistic and ethnic data in the area of Ukraine. Basically where there is at least a 40% of ethnically Russian population there is over a 80% of Russian native speakers, but the feeling of Russian identity is a lot stronger in those who recognize themselves as Russians ethnically, and they can have an stronger impulse in support of the independence from Ukraine than in other people that see not themselves as Russian, and may feel comfortable with a change in the Ukranian government only.

The people that would support a pro-Russian riot that want to join an independent political entity is people that see a difference between to be Russian or to be Ukranian, and want to be Russian or Novorrussian over Ukranian. To see where is located this people the alone way is to look at the census data (2001) the last Ukranian census is less fiable.

Most of the people that speaks Russian as native language, but call themselves Ukranian, really have not a trouble living in Ukraine, and at best may want a change in the Ukranian government, but have not too much interest in leaving Ukraine.

Me, myself, Im from an area with strong identity issues. As example, I'm Basque, and I'm not Spanish or French, despite what the papers that are imposed to me want to say, or despite the fact that I'm fluent speaker of Spanish or French. Obviously my impulse to defend the independence of the Basque country is strong.

^
The 2001 census is the problem here, and is the census were it was found that Russians were ticking box as Ukranians as ethnicity even only ten years after formation of Ukraine. Ignoring all the ethnic groups that are not East Slavonic, it still cannot be explained by population changes how 49,09% Russians and 9,39% Malorussians [Ukranians] in 1897 can change to 61,6% Ukranian and only 29,0% Russian by 2001. It is only the Jews that were killed or left in any significant numbers. There is also the issue of Surzhyk, which is a dialect of Russian, in that speakers of Surzhyk will call themselves Ukranian on the basis of speaking Surzhyk. Another analogy with Germany is that to say Zurzhyk is not a dialect of Russian is as ridiculous as a speaker of Plaatdeutsch saying they are not speaking Deutsch.

But except in these points of census and language which I point out as I think they are important, your post is otherwise correct, for instance, if a person who is actually Russian ticks box for Ukraine, then likely they will not bother getting too excited to rebel and will want to keep staus quo. Also the issue of inertia in that always the majority of any population, tho they may talk in private about these important issues, will never take to the streets, it is only the minority, and they are usually people who know and think about the issues deeply. I have a view that may seem harsh or even arrogant, but it is like in elections, if you vote then likely you are capable of thinking and have a stake in the result, if you do not vote, then you have no voice and it must be presumed you do not care, in which case sit on the sidelines and do not complain as you are simply lumpen. The point I make is that irrespective of what any census tells us, what counts is when action is required who is it that takes up arms and comes out onto the streets. If in a city that the census shows has "Ukranian" majority, but those on the streets are Russian, and they win, then there should not be any crying. The converse is true of course, but "funny stuff" occured in 2014, and it must not be forgotten that in Mariupol well armed outsiders effectively surrounded and stormed the city. What can unarmed citizens do against banderas backed up by UA driving into mariupol in BMPs, killing innocent people, storming the police headquarters and slaughtering the police. It was a case of the minority impossing their will over the majority by force, history is full of this. To me, the cry, heard around the networks, and here, about Ukraine, that if Russians in cities such as Kharkov or Odessa do not rise, then throw them to the banderas, is false. There are those who will rise, but they will not throw away their lives in vain and will not rise until they see that help is on the way. IMO, they cannot be dissmissed just because of the inertia of the majority, and the inertia of the majority cannot be used as an excuse for inaction. Sorry these seems like polemic rant, but it is important point that does not get discussed.

Something positive. Rebuilding of kindergartens and schools in Novosvetlovka in LNR.

The people of what is today Ukraine are historical turncoats and opportunists. To not go into too much detail on Lithuania, Union of Brest, Cossacks anf Russyns, the comparison of last Imperial and first Bolshevik census should be enough.

Really, they are the most ridiculous and artificial political nation: the current brand of nationalism is based on western Ukrainian nationalism and Banderism: the ideological descendants of converts, fifth-column and Uniats of the past. The official language however, is not the original dialect spoken by those people, but a modified Poltava dialect.
But it gets even better: they somehow managed to fuse Uniatism, Bandera and the Cossack legacy, even though Cossacks were formed and gained strength by absorbing peasants fleeing traitorous and converted nobility who served foreign, Polish rulers.
To top it all, they officialy hate Bolsheviks, Lenin and Stalin, even though "their" state and political nation was formed and gained territory exclusively during their rule, in order to undermine the Russian nation.

Which explains the fact that the collaborationist scum and fifth-column were not "neutralised" post-WW2. On the contrary, throughout the Soviet period, Ukraine was developed, industrialised and urbanised, artificially to a large degree. Indoctrination and historical revisionism was included, too. Just have a look what the current breed of UkrOp historians and their chieftain, Volodymyr Viatrovych, in charge of the affair, are up to. Just fucking read the nonsense they put into books, publish and indoctrinate the future generations.

That there were Russians who kept delusional thoughts of brotherly and friendly relations with a construct envisioned and executed to be anti-Russian and an anti-Russia outright, speaks volume of the politically naive Russian population. Honestly, get rid of Lenin finally, and start sorting out your society.

Militarov wrote:"On a procurement order from the Russian hybrid military force in the Donbas, a garment factory in Donetsk [in Russia-occupied territory of Ukraine] has delivered a large supply of Ukrainian Armed Forces-style combat uniforms with fake Ukrainian insignia, according to the Information Resistance (IR) group, as reported by Dmytro Tymchuk, the IR coordinator and head of the Center for Military-Political Studies.



“Part of the order – with the insignia of Aidar battalion – has already been manufactured and delivered to the mercenaries, the other part of the order – with the insignia of the Ukrainian Armed Forces brigades [is incomplete yet],” – the statement says.

It reports that patches with “Mykolaiv” and “79” were observed, which are symbols of Ukraine’s 79th Separate Airmobile Brigade based in Mykolaiv."

Source: http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/05/05/92410/#arvlbdata

Wtf...These guys are amazing. It has to be a mental disease...

SturmGuard wrote:The people of what is today Ukraine are historical turncoats and opportunists. To not go into too much detail on Lithuania, Union of Brest, Cossacks anf Russyns, the comparison of last Imperial and first Bolshevik census should be enough.

Really, they are the most ridiculous and artificial political nation: the current brand of nationalism is based on western Ukrainian nationalism and Banderism: the ideological descendants of converts, fifth-column and Uniats of the past. The official language however, is not the original dialect spoken by those people, but a modified Poltava dialect.
But it gets even better: they somehow managed to fuse Uniatism, Bandera and the Cossack legacy, even though Cossacks were formed and gained strength by absorbing peasants fleeing traitorous and converted nobility who served foreign, Polish rulers.
To top it all, they officialy hate Bolsheviks, Lenin and Stalin, even though "their" state and political nation was formed and gained territory exclusively during their rule, in order to undermine the Russian nation.

Which explains the fact that the collaborationist scum and fifth-column were not "neutralised" post-WW2. On the contrary, throughout the Soviet period, Ukraine was developed, industrialised and urbanised, artificially to a large degree. Indoctrination and historical revisionism was included, too. Just have a look what the current breed of UkrOp historians and their chieftain, Volodymyr Viatrovych, in charge of the affair, are up to. Just fucking read the nonsense they put into books, publish and indoctrinate the future generations.

That there were Russians who kept delusional thoughts of brotherly and friendly relations with a construct envisioned and executed to be anti-Russian and an anti-Russia outright, speaks volume of the politically naive Russian population. Honestly, get rid of Lenin finally, and start sorting out your society.

^+1

Wasn't Ukraine actually the leading republic in the Soviet Union?

Ukraine was always the most industrialized and wealthiest part of the country.

Most of the Soviet leadership after Stalin was Ukrainian.

Ukraine got lots of preferential economic treatment. And Crimea was handed out to them.

Russia was a backwater in the USSR compared to Ukraine.

And as far as I see it, Lenin and Trotsky are the two greatest traitors in the Russian history.

They murdered thousands of Russian capitalists and merchants, millions of landowners and independent peasants, and destroyed the country's agriculture. There was a famine in Russia in the early 1920's because of Lenin and Trotsky.

They destroyed (or tried to destroy) Orthodoxy, the backbone of the Russian nation.

They ruthlessly murdered Cossacks, the best and most patriotic people in Russia.

And most importantly they broke the "Russian core" which is Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and northern part of Kazakhstan. They split the Russian core to different entities. It was Lenin and Trotsky who enabled the current hatred between two Russian nations, the Russian Federation and Ukraine (they are both Russian nations in my book).

These two did more harm to Russia than Hitler. Way more. And they were foreign agents as Lenin was working for Germany and Trotsky for his New York based paymasters such as Jacob Schiff.

And those so-called Russia-scholars in Finland who really hate Russia seem to really like Lenin and Trotsky but hate Stalin. That tells me something.

Without Lenin and Trotsky the people of Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk and Kiev would live today peacefully in the same country with their brothers in Rostov-na-donu and Moscow.

Khepesh wrote:^
The 2001 census is the problem here, and is the census were it was found that Russians were ticking box as Ukranians as ethnicity even only ten years after formation of Ukraine. Ignoring all the ethnic groups that are not East Slavonic, it still cannot be explained by population changes how 49,09% Russians and 9,39% Malorussians [Ukranians] in 1897 can change to 61,6% Ukranian and only 29,0% Russian by 2001. It is only the Jews that were killed or left in any significant numbers. There is also the issue of Surzhyk, which is a dialect of Russian, in that speakers of Surzhyk will call themselves Ukranian on the basis of speaking Surzhyk. Another analogy with Germany is that to say Zurzhyk is not a dialect of Russian is as ridiculous as a speaker of Plaatdeutsch saying they are not speaking Deutsch.

But except in these points of census and language which I point out as I think they are important, your post is otherwise correct, for instance, if a person who is actually Russian ticks box for Ukraine, then likely they will not bother getting too excited to rebel and will want to keep staus quo. Also the issue of inertia in that always the majority of any population, tho they may talk in private about these important issues, will never take to the streets, it is only the minority, and they are usually people who know and think about the issues deeply. I have a view that may seem harsh or even arrogant, but it is like in elections, if you vote then likely you are capable of thinking and have a stake in the result, if you do not vote, then you have no voice and it must be presumed you do not care, in which case sit on the sidelines and do not complain as you are simply lumpen. The point I make is that irrespective of what any census tells us, what counts is when action is required who is it that takes up arms and comes out onto the streets. If in a city that the census shows has "Ukranian" majority, but those on the streets are Russian, and they win, then there should not be any crying. The converse is true of course, but "funny stuff" occured in 2014, and it must not be forgotten that in Mariupol well armed outsiders effectively surrounded and stormed the city. What can unarmed citizens do against banderas backed up by UA driving into mariupol in BMPs, killing innocent people, storming the police headquarters and slaughtering the police. It was a case of the minority impossing their will over the majority by force, history is full of this. To me, the cry, heard around the networks, and here, about Ukraine, that if Russians in cities such as Kharkov or Odessa do not rise, then throw them to the banderas, is false. There are those who will rise, but they will not throw away their lives in vain and will not rise until they see that help is on the way. IMO, they cannot be dissmissed just because of the inertia of the majority, and the inertia of the majority cannot be used as an excuse for inaction. Sorry these seems like polemic rant, but it is important point that does not get discussed.

The way that these data could have been used in a predictive mode to find the most likely cities where a pro-Russian riot would happen and would become successful, comes not from the exact numbers, wich are still important, but comes from the relative positions, in an axis of the Russian ethnic presence. As I have been comenting, the successful pro-Russian riots happened in the cities with biggest ethnic Russian presence (recognized by every citizen for him/herself). And these data are likely to be useful in the same predictive way in the near future. Between the remaining territory under the control of the Ukranian government, it is very likely that potential pro-Russian riots happen where there is more people that can recognize and consider themselves as ethnically Russians.

I can not say if the people answered right or wrong to the question about ethnicity in the 2001 census, but there is a component here about how everyone consider him/herself that is important too.

From this analysis, the next important question is surely if the presence of Russian populations in the remaining places under Ukranian control is strong enough to succeed in a riot that want to leave Ukraine. This is the doubt, and as this is the most important mark in absolute terms. Today it is not a mark with an assigned numeric data. Until now the value would be around a 40% of ethnic Russian population in terms of the 2001 census, but it can change.

Also the reasoning in relative terms, is what leads to conclude that a pro-Russian riot in some city under the control of the Ukranian government will be more difficult every time. I have not doubt that the next case will be more difficult for the pro-Russians than the last case where it was a change of control (Debaltsevo). Again this is also a sentence in relative terms.

According to the data, Mariupol is the city under Ukranian control with biggest self recognition of the citizens as ethnic Russians, and also is a city in the front line. I tend to think that a fight for Mariupol will happen before a real ballance between both sides is reached. And surely this fight will be more difficult for the pro-Russian forces than the fight for Debaltsevo.

In the other side, the Ukranian government will likely to increase the attacks to Pervomaisk, Yasinovata and Debaltsevo, if they feel able to gain territory.

From the hundreds of cities over 30000 inhabitants before the begin of the war that are today under Ukranian control, the rank that I posted in the previous page was showing the 15 cities with biggest ethnically Russian presence (recognized by the own citizens). To be in the Top-15 is not a weak mark for the ethnic Russian self recognition despite to be lower than in the territory under pro-Russian control. To see it, only is necessary to remember how many cities even in the Donets and Luhansk Oblasts are not in the list (Sloviansk, Kramatorsk, Severodonetsk, Lysychansk,... all them have lower ethnic Russian self recognition in 2001). This is how we can understand that the rulers of Novorrussia talk to the pro-Russian people of cities outside of the Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts.

44.4% Mariupol (Donetsk Oblast)
43.7% Izmail (Odessa Oblast)

??.?% Chuhuiv (Kharkiv Oblast)
39.8% Enerhodar (Zaporizhia Oblast)
38.9% Melitopol (Zaporizhia Oblast)
37.7% Konstantinivka (Donetsk Oblast)
37.4% Berdyansk (Zaporizhia Oblast)
37.3% Rubizhne (Luhansk Oblast)
36.7% Selydove (Donetsk Oblast)
36.6% Dzerzhynsk-Toretsk (Donetsk Oblast)
33.7% Avdeevka (Donetsk Oblast)
33.2% Kharkiv (Kharkiv Oblast)
32.9% Pavlohrad (Dnipropetrovsk Oblast)
31.5% Dimitrov (Donetsk Oblast)

29.0% Odessa (Odessa Oblast)
...

SturmGuard wrote:The people of what is today Ukraine are historical turncoats and opportunists. To not go into too much detail on Lithuania, Union of Brest, Cossacks anf Russyns, the comparison of last Imperial and first Bolshevik census should be enough.

Really, they are the most ridiculous and artificial political nation: the current brand of nationalism is based on western Ukrainian nationalism and Banderism: the ideological descendants of converts, fifth-column and Uniats of the past. The official language however, is not the original dialect spoken by those people, but a modified Poltava dialect.
But it gets even better: they somehow managed to fuse Uniatism, Bandera and the Cossack legacy, even though Cossacks were formed and gained strength by absorbing peasants fleeing traitorous and converted nobility who served foreign, Polish rulers.
To top it all, they officialy hate Bolsheviks, Lenin and Stalin, even though "their" state and political nation was formed and gained territory exclusively during their rule, in order to undermine the Russian nation.

Which explains the fact that the collaborationist scum and fifth-column were not "neutralised" post-WW2. On the contrary, throughout the Soviet period, Ukraine was developed, industrialised and urbanised, artificially to a large degree. Indoctrination and historical revisionism was included, too. Just have a look what the current breed of UkrOp historians and their chieftain, Volodymyr Viatrovych, in charge of the affair, are up to. Just fucking read the nonsense they put into books, publish and indoctrinate the future generations.

That there were Russians who kept delusional thoughts of brotherly and friendly relations with a construct envisioned and executed to be anti-Russian and an anti-Russia outright, speaks volume of the politically naive Russian population. Honestly, get rid of Lenin finally, and start sorting out your society.

I understand all this, and in large part agree, but really I'm looking at a longer historical process and what an outcome of this crisis could be. To be harsh I could say that fuck what anybody in Ukraine wants, it never existed and what counts as civilisation and industry in the country is Russian. So should the cynical machinations of Lenin and the treason of Eltsin at Belazheva be allowed to stand? After all the blood spilt, at Poltava in the time of Peter, and then in the two world wars, should Novorossiya simply be allowed to be stolen? To give away this territory is really no different to giving away Siberia, and that is unthinkable. If Ukraine is allowed to finally leave Russia, then this opens the door for the potential loss of Rostov and Krasnodar, for if it can be so easy to let go Odessa, then why not, for instance, Azov, taken into Russia at the same time, and going further, even Kazan. To let one element go, opens Pandora's box. It is beyond all these issues of religion, politics, traitors and loonies that infest Ukraine, it is Russian territory that is being given away, why? and why should this be accepted? Russia is from Odessa to Vladivostok and from Vladikavkaz to Murmansk. This is beyond bastards like Eltsin or any transitory politicians and the lovers of $. The banderas and their backers in Washington already state they want the destruction of Russia, to compress it to a core area around Moscow and the "Golden Ring", they publicly state they want to take Kursk, Belgorod, Rostov and Krasnodar, and while it can be said that this will lead to nukes flying, letting go Ukraine is a step in that direction. Belazheva can be seen by some as a treason against Soviet Union, but it was far more, it was the worst treason ever done against Russia. I will say what did all those who died at Ostankino and Whitehouse die for, a "wonderful future" with "partners", or were they just murdered by a traitorous crimminal, a lover of $. It is far more than an issue of banderas and other loonies in Kiev, so forget them as even they are transitory. If the situation ends, and this is not unlikley, with Donbass either in perpetual limbo, or even as part of Russia, and the rest of Ukraine left to rot, I wonder how many who now do not give a fuck about Novorossiya will be jumping and shouting when American armored brigades are based at Chernigov and Sumy and Kharkov, and it will happen, if it is allowed to. This is the real issue, not banderas, not people who vote against who they are and other nonsense like the machinations of oligarchs, it is existential for Russia, despite what the lovers of "partners" and of $ and what their claquers chant day after day in the networks. It is even irrelevant about Ukraine being told they will not join EU or NATO for 25 or thirty years, for that time will pass soon enough, then what?

Okay, a lot of that was rhetoric, but it is to show it is beyond even the people, for bandera loonies, oligarchs etc will all die, but there is the future to think about. I referenced "Gostya iz budushchego" because at the time many saw that as something that might be so, but we got Eltsin and bastards like Grachev and now death and shit in Ukraine and excuses for treason, and that is what abandoning Novorossiya will be, treason, treason against all those over the years who have shed their blood.

Lot of wisdom and realism in that Khepesh.

Just look at the Baltics, 'asking' and getting pre-positioned US gear. That's a pretty good prediction of what may well happen in 10-15 years time in Ukraine. NATO troop exercises across eastern Ukraine? Why would anyone not expect it?

That is unless the US and the West doesn't implode on its debt before then.

We are in full agreement Khepesh. I was trying to point out the incosistencies and unsustainability of the current brand of UkrOp, and the quickly shifting allegiance of the people and territoty. This affair was handled poorly, as if the previous lessons were never learned: if there is a war to be fought, better fight it in enemy territory and prevent the devastation of yours. The current power disposition and the monopoly on violence, weapons and terror that the Western-backed government and paramiltaries enjoy simply makes any dissent, protests and uprisings highly unlikely. Furthermore, as we have already witnessed, it would only lead to deaths of unarmed people at the hands of the worst scum. The problem is the political, economic and media support and patronage that these thugs have in the form of NATO pact. Unfortunately, Russia is not yet ready and self-sufficient, and the Russian people in particular have not been completely introduced to the truth.

Looking at Belarus and especially Kazakhstan in the future. The same way the current situation in Ukraine was unfathomable in 1991 but completely expected following 2004. Times of trouble ahead, in my opinion.

We'll never know would things have turned out differently had Russia been stronger and backed the violent crackdown on western Ukrainian terrorists when they started raiding and looting
government buildings and armories there, prior to Maidan.

Saur-Mogila today, many thousands turned up.

More photos

SturmGuard wrote:The people of what is today Ukraine are historical turncoats and opportunists. To not go into too much detail on Lithuania, Union of Brest, Cossacks anf Russyns, the comparison of last Imperial and first Bolshevik census should be enough.

Really, they are the most ridiculous and artificial political nation: the current brand of nationalism is based on western Ukrainian nationalism and Banderism: the ideological descendants of converts, fifth-column and Uniats of the past. The official language however, is not the original dialect spoken by those people, but a modified Poltava dialect.
But it gets even better: they somehow managed to fuse Uniatism, Bandera and the Cossack legacy, even though Cossacks were formed and gained strength by absorbing peasants fleeing traitorous and converted nobility who served foreign, Polish rulers.
To top it all, they officialy hate Bolsheviks, Lenin and Stalin, even though "their" state and political nation was formed and gained territory exclusively during their rule, in order to undermine the Russian nation.

Which explains the fact that the collaborationist scum and fifth-column were not "neutralised" post-WW2. On the contrary, throughout the Soviet period, Ukraine was developed, industrialised and urbanised, artificially to a large degree. Indoctrination and historical revisionism was included, too. Just have a look what the current breed of UkrOp historians and their chieftain, Volodymyr Viatrovych, in charge of the affair, are up to. Just fucking read the nonsense they put into books, publish and indoctrinate the future generations.

That there were Russians who kept delusional thoughts of brotherly and friendly relations with a construct envisioned and executed to be anti-Russian and an anti-Russia outright, speaks volume of the politically naive Russian population. Honestly, get rid of Lenin finally, and start sorting out your society.

Turncoats from what? From you?

http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/382/wolyn-galicja-podole-malopolska-wschodnia


They only realize their own sick selfish ambitions.

Odin of Ossetia wrote:

SturmGuard wrote:The people of what is today Ukraine are historical turncoats and opportunists. To not go into too much detail on Lithuania, Union of Brest, Cossacks anf Russyns, the comparison of last Imperial and first Bolshevik census should be enough.

Really, they are the most ridiculous and artificial political nation: the current brand of nationalism is based on western Ukrainian nationalism and Banderism: the ideological descendants of converts, fifth-column and Uniats of the past. The official language however, is not the original dialect spoken by those people, but a modified Poltava dialect.
But it gets even better: they somehow managed to fuse Uniatism, Bandera and the Cossack legacy, even though Cossacks were formed and gained strength by absorbing peasants fleeing traitorous and converted nobility who served foreign, Polish rulers.
To top it all, they officialy hate Bolsheviks, Lenin and Stalin, even though "their" state and political nation was formed and gained territory exclusively during their rule, in order to undermine the Russian nation.

Which explains the fact that the collaborationist scum and fifth-column were not "neutralised" post-WW2. On the contrary, throughout the Soviet period, Ukraine was developed, industrialised and urbanised, artificially to a large degree. Indoctrination and historical revisionism was included, too. Just have a look what the current breed of UkrOp historians and their chieftain, Volodymyr Viatrovych, in charge of the affair, are up to. Just fucking read the nonsense they put into books, publish and indoctrinate the future generations.

That there were Russians who kept delusional thoughts of brotherly and friendly relations with a construct envisioned and executed to be anti-Russian and an anti-Russia outright, speaks volume of the politically naive Russian population. Honestly, get rid of Lenin finally, and start sorting out your society.

Turncoats from what? From you?

http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/382/wolyn-galicja-podole-malopolska-wschodnia


They only realize their own sick selfish ambitions.

Not again breaking rules of advertizing other forums and a really dubious one with that polish revisionism not to mention trying to quote your own mumbling as a source. Seem some of you die hard poles are prone to quote themselfs and attempting to let others believe it is a form of source? Ambroomz guy does that constantly.

Just look at the Baltics, 'asking' and getting pre-positioned US gear. That's a pretty good prediction of what may well happen in 10-15 years time in Ukraine. NATO troop exercises across eastern Ukraine? Why would anyone not expect it?

No disrespect to Regular, but I like the fact that the US is prepositioning hardware in the baltic areas... it sends a clear message to Russia what these countries are and what they think of Russia.

Equipment positioned in the Baltic states can be easily targeted if needed and it makes normal relations with these countries difficult... that means Russia will remember who is friend and who is enemy and wont bother offering investment or trade with countries that are openly hostile to them.

In other words to use the Ukraine as an analogy for years when the Ukrainian government was not so friendly the Russians still bought Ukrainian engines and components in the hope to maintain ties with a country they had a lot of trade with... now that the Ukraine has cut ties it makes promises of investment and support for their economy easy to cut so that money and trade can now go elsewhere to a country that might appreciate it more... Vietnam, Brazil, South Africa, Argentina, Venezuela... and plenty more countries that are not hostile to Russia and would like investment and trade to boost both economies (ie theirs and Russias).

If the baltic states and even the Ukraine want to hitch their wagon to the USS America that is fine... what they are doing is crippling local trade with a huge neighbour, and opening trade with an economic giant that will just eat up their local industries... in the short term it might be very good for them... despite the language barrier the big multi national companies might view the Ukraine as a excellent opportunity for low cost production where wages can be tiny and the risks of pollution or on the job safety has little or no red tape to it at all.

Of course eventually the workers demand rights like more than a dollar a day in pay and safety equipment, but with control of the government that should not be an issue.

Natalia Poklonskaya's new Remembrance video. A little corny but she is a cutie;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3Y5FrL9Gcc

Ukraine to get a new Governor General... look out Greece!


In the near future, Washington will change its ambassador in Ukraine.

Instead of Jeffrey Payette, Embassy in the United States will be headed by Marie Yovanovitch, who has Slavic roots and is fluent in Russian.

In addition, the publication Kiev Post noted that Jovanovic to September 2012 served as deputy secretary of state and headed the Bureau of European and Eurasian issues.

Jovanovic was also US ambassador to Armenia and Kyrgyzstan, as well as the deputy of the US mission in Ukraine and actively worked there in 2001-2004, prior to the Orange Revolution.

However, the former ambassador Payette will be transferred to work in Greece, where he will also take the post of Plenipotentiary Representative in Washington.

GarryB wrote:

Just look at the Baltics, 'asking' and getting pre-positioned US gear. That's a pretty good prediction of what may well happen in 10-15 years time in Ukraine. NATO troop exercises across eastern Ukraine? Why would anyone not expect it?

No disrespect to Regular, but I like the fact that the US is prepositioning hardware in the baltic areas... it sends a clear message to Russia what these countries are and what they think of Russia.

Equipment positioned in the Baltic states can be easily targeted if needed and it makes normal relations with these countries difficult... that means Russia will remember who is friend and who is enemy and wont bother offering investment or trade with countries that are openly hostile to them.

th economies (ie theirs and Russias).

If the baltic states and even the Ukraine want to hitch their wagon to the USS America that is fine... what they are doing is crippling local trade with a huge neighbour, and opening trade with an economic giant that will just eat up their local industries... in the short term it might be very good for them... despite the language barrier the big multi national companies might view the Ukraine as a excellent opportunity for low cost production where wages can be tiny and the risks of pollution or on the job safety has little or no red tape to it at all.

Of course eventually the workers demand rights like more than a dollar a day in pay and safety equipment, but with control of the government that should not be an issue.

No offence taken. I don't accept Lithuanian government as authority or representive of all Lithuanians. Plenty of us live abroad just because of our government, would go as far as to call it economic exile, especially now after Euro - cost of living went up like crazy. For some of us it's not a fight, but a flight.

No, it's not junta or US controlled government, most of them are ex-commies, suddenly became something else, but actually haven't changed a bit. Our foreign policy seems to be run from US by someone who likes black humour, we are pretty much Zhirnovski of NATO.

As for Lithuania having friendly relationship with Russia - I wish, not long ago we had good business going with our port in Klaipeda, Dairy products(better quality than the ones for domestic market) were sold to Russia where it was very popular, but whole Ukraine ordeal ended it. Why the hell we had to poke our nose there? Our corrupt politicians went to Maidan for our taxpayers money instead of doing their work.

Hell even me as Lithuanian have problems with government, plenty of people would go to the streets, but we are passive bunch and after seeing Ukrainian example I doubt that anyone would want Maidan. Problem with democracy, there is no one worth my vote, oposition is even worse. Going to the streets is definitely not an option.

And sane people know that by putting NATO assets in the country we actually endanger ourselves. NATO will never have enough troops there to secure Baltics as big concentrations of troops so close to the border would be wiped out even by tactical weapons.

But hey Russia can always answer against us economically and we only have 1 ace. Railway leading to Kaliningrad. It can be closed for repair and etc.

GarryB wrote:

Just look at the Baltics, 'asking' and getting pre-positioned US gear. That's a pretty good prediction of what may well happen in 10-15 years time in Ukraine. NATO troop exercises across eastern Ukraine? Why would anyone not expect it?

No disrespect to Regular, but I like the fact that the US is prepositioning hardware in the baltic areas... it sends a clear message to Russia what these countries are and what they think of Russia.

Equipment positioned in the Baltic states can be easily targeted if needed and it makes normal relations with these countries difficult... that means Russia will remember who is friend and who is enemy and wont bother offering investment or trade with countries that are openly hostile to them.

In other words to use the Ukraine as an analogy for years when the Ukrainian government was not so friendly the Russians still bought Ukrainian engines and components in the hope to maintain ties with a country they had a lot of trade with... now that the Ukraine has cut ties it makes promises of investment and support for their economy easy to cut so that money and trade can now go elsewhere to a country that might appreciate it more... Vietnam, Brazil, South Africa, Argentina, Venezuela... and plenty more countries that are not hostile to Russia and would like investment and trade to boost both economies (ie theirs and Russias).

If the baltic states and even the Ukraine want to hitch their wagon to the USS America that is fine... what they are doing is crippling local trade with a huge neighbour, and opening trade with an economic giant that will just eat up their local industries... in the short term it might be very good for them... despite the language barrier the big multi national companies might view the Ukraine as a excellent opportunity for low cost production where wages can be tiny and the risks of pollution or on the job safety has little or no red tape to it at all.

Of course eventually the workers demand rights like more than a dollar a day in pay and safety equipment, but with control of the government that should not be an issue.

Thanks for bringing this up. The west overrates itself in terms of economic power and at the same time underrates Russia. All of these
foaming at the mouth chihuahuas will rue the day they pissed on Russia. Uncle Scam is too far away and too uninterested in dishing out
welfare to them. These idiots just can't pretend that Russia is not a major economic power and trade market. They can keep on puckering
their assess harder and harder in their hate tantrum, but they will suffer for the foreseeable future thanks to their severing of economic ties
to Russia. And Russia should make sure they suffer and for a very long time. A Cuba like embargo on trade with all these western pseudo-states
would be a very good idea. The world is a much bigger place than the US and its vassals.