PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

Is this picture photoshop or can the Su-57 really carry 6 R-77s? Also, as of 2018, is it confirmed if the Su-57 will carry a medium range AAM with range above 110km? I thought I heard that the K-77M never existed.

Well, if it's real, you must be the first guy on the planet to have posted it anywhere.....so my guess is it's a FAKE!

So its still not confirmed that the Su-57 can carry more than 4 R-77s?

Fake pics when we're soon to receive pics of the new prototype. Made me come to look

i agree the t-10 was completely different to the su-27,the t 50 prototype each one have different types things on them the production version will be more refined

So its still not confirmed that the Su-57 can carry more than 4 R-77s?

Hahahahahaha... yeah, right... it is confirmed it can carry 4 x R-37M.... I am sure it will only be able to carry 4 R-77s too.

Does someone know if there is going to be an UB variant of su-57 for training like it is the case for every other fighter in russia ?

Isos wrote:Does someone know if there going to be an UB variant of su-57 for training like it is the case for every other fighter in russia ?

A two seater could become viable sometime but there is the chance that Yak-130 will be that training aircraft needed to simulate Su-57, plus using simulators, since automation does a lot of work a second pilot would do.

miketheterrible wrote:

Isos wrote:Does someone know if there going to be an UB variant of su-57 for training like it is the case for every other fighter in russia ?

A two seater could become viable sometime but there is the chance that Yak-130 will be that training aircraft needed to simulate Su-57, plus using simulators, since automation does a lot of work a second pilot would do.

I was thinking the same but you can't simulate a su-57 with a yak 130 for dogfight specialy for new pilots who need to be trained for the use of afterburner. Even the radar can't be simulate idealy in a trainer aircraft ...

Simulators are good to simulate avionics, radar ... but not the real sensation of a fighter so it's not enough.

A trainer su-57 doesn't need to be as expensive as a a su 57 because they don't need all the expensive RAM coating or internal weapons or ECM. A simplier version is enough just to teach pilots fly the monster.

Izd.30 engine will finish testing in 2021

http://www.interfax.ru/amp/595751

Does that mean that the Su-57 that will enter service in 2018 will still have the Al-41? Im confused about why it will take so long to test. Can't most of the reliability and thrust testing be done on the ground? Also on infographics it says that the Su-57 only completed flight and air refueling testing, while weapons testing hasn't even begun yet. This seems to be a contradiction otherwise they wouldn't be thinking of putting it into service this year.

I would suggest it has already completed weapons testing... we have already seen prototypes with external weapons... I doubt they were for show.

If they do produce a few (probably 8-12) initial serial production models this year they would likely go to training squadrons so operations and maintainence and servicing manuals can be formulated and written.

Any further bugs will be found and production will be tweaked to adapt to solutions and production optimisation.

Regarding the fake pic above it actually looks OK and suggests that more than 4 R-77s could be carried.... remember the R-77 was originally designed for internal carriage... its rear grid fins fold forward for internal carriage and its standard mounting is on an arm launcher that throws the missile down and away from the launch aircraft before its rocket motor lights up... this throws it down into the slipstream of a moving aircraft from inside a weapon bay.

The Al-41 is not a bad engine and would give the aircraft that is smaller than the Su-35 better performance than that aircraft... which is impressive in itself.

Later when it gets new engines its performance will be further improved.

Regarding two seat models the Russians have said the automation of operation of the aircraft means a second crewman is redundant.

In terms of piloting it should be rather easier to fly than any other Russian aircraft so the Yak-130 will give their pilots experience with a twin engined high performance aircraft, while likely the Su-30 will allow them to take it a step further in performance... I can't see pilots going from training in the Yak-130 straight on to the Su-57.... they will probably fly Su-30s or MiG-29SMTs and then perhaps Su-35s or MiG-35s and the Su-57s.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

Izd.30 engine will finish testing in 2021

http://www.interfax.ru/amp/595751

Does that mean that the Su-57 that will enter service in 2018 will still have the Al-41? Im confused about why it will take so long to test. Can't most of the reliability and thrust testing be done on the ground? Also on infographics it says that the Su-57 only completed flight and air refueling testing, while weapons testing hasn't even begun yet. This seems to be a contradiction otherwise they wouldn't be thinking of putting it into service this year.

Take heart, terms like "finish testing" or "entering service" actually means something different in Russia of what they have in the West.

Russians have not an IOC or an LRIP phase in their book so they once get at the equivalent point of their own development process they begin serial production and at full rhythm also, just they obviously keep on working on their own models until they reach the requested final goals in terms of both performance and reliability.
At this point they declare the product "Officially in Service" and gave at the NPO team working on it a new task to work on .

You could argue that the west is not that different... the F-14A had crap engines from another aircraft design programme (F-111) and really only became a good aircraft when it got new engines (F-14D)...

I would expect the Su-57 to be in service for quite some time and it will likely get a couple of engine upgrades during that period... especially near the end of its life when its replacement is getting ready for service and new engines for that aircraft are put in the late model Su-57s as an upgrade...

Russia’s defense ministry to sign contract for 12 Su-57 fighter jets

The first two planes of this batch may come into service in 2019

KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, February 8. /TASS/. Russia’s defense ministry plans to sign a contract for a preproduction batch of fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jets, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Thursday.

"We are buying Su-57 jets for test combat use. First stage state trials are over," he told journalists. "This year, we will sign a contract for the first batch of 12 Su-57 fighter jets for the Armed Forces."

According to Borisov, the first two planes of this batch may come into service in 2019. He said that ten out of 12 previously manufactured jets are undergoing flight tests.

When asked about performance of the new engine for Su-57, he answered: "So far, it is difficult to say because there have had been only one flight. Everything seems to be all right. But you know, it is a series of trials. Many flights are to be performed. As a rule, such trials take two or three years," he said.

The Su-57 (PAK FA) performed its maiden flight in 2010. On December 5, it made the first flight with a new engine. Currently, the plane is equipped with the so-called stage-on engine 117C. The new engine has been given no name so far and is conventionally referred to as "stage-two engine." It was reported in August 2017 that Russia’s the PAK FA fifth-generation fighter jet had received the serial index of Su-57. The experimental design work on the most advanced fighter jet should be completed in 2019 and its deliveries to the troops should begin at that time.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/988976

So what does that actually mean? That none will be ordered this year? And even then only 2 planes next year, which means 10 will be built in 2020 (-> so 12 by the end of 2020)!? I don't think so?

From another topic:

AMCXXL wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I believe Su-35 as well.

not necessarily now
In 2018 are necesary the Su-30SM and the Yak-130 as productions cannot stop.
Also MiG-35 contract is necesary for start serial production soon.The Su-57 probably will start serial production of first batch in 2019.
Su-34 will end contract in 2019 and Su-35 in 2020, so at the moment it is not in a hurry to sign new contracts, although the total number will be planned in SAP 2018-2027

This year will be received 40 combat aircrafts:
16 SU-34 ?
10 Su-35
14 SU-30SM

Next years the numbers will increase slightly with the new MiG-35 and Su-57.
Also Su-35S procurement will be increased after China received all the 24 Su-35, while Su-34 probably will be lower when Algeria receive their airplanes
In 10 years of sustained production, about 450 or 500 new combat aircraft can be manufactured for Russian Ministry of Defence, without great efforts

ALso:
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3087140.html
The contract for the first 12 serial Su-57 fighters of the installation batch will be concluded in 2018
Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Yury Borisov during his visit to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant named after Yu.A. Gagarin (KnAAZ) of Sukhoi Company, said that in 2018 a contract will be signed for the delivery of the installation lot of the fifth generation of Su-57 fighters created under the PAK FA program. "We will first contract the first squadron - 12 aircraft," - specified Borisov.
According to Borisov, the first two planes from this party can enter the troops already in 2019. He added that earlier in the framework of development work on the PAK FA, 12 machines were manufactured, 10 of which are actively involved in flight tests.
"We are taking the Su-57 already for the experimental-combat operation, and the state tests of the first stage are over," Borisov said.
Answering the question about the work on the new engine for the PAK FA, the defense secretary said: "It's hard to judge, because we had just one flight." It's all OK, but you understand, it's a test complex, you have to fly a long time.As a rule, such tests last two or three years. "
Also, when visiting KnAAZ, Yuri Borisov said that in 2018 the plant will produce 10 new Su-35 fighters for the Russian Defense Ministry and will modernize six Su-27 aircraft to the level of the CM-3.
The aircraft of the installation lot, according to known information, must be made in the technical face of the experienced fighters T-50-9 / T-50-11 and equipped with engines of the type "117". Presumably, after the production of this installation lot, within the framework of the adopted State Arms Program for 2018-2027, a new contract for the production of 12-15 Su-57 aircraft of the installation batch in the form of the "second stage" should be followed, with the "engine 30" fitted with a prospective engine. Actual full-scale production of Su-57 fighters for equipping the linear parts of the Russian military spacecraft will apparently be carried out in the shape of the "second stage" after 2027.

So it seems large scale production , will be after the production of Su-35, as logical
No sense to produce all airplanes at same time.

So............................. 24 Su-57s by 2027!? WTF?

We don't know. This is same about 2020. After that we don't know exactly.

The testing phase is not over. Wait until it is.

It's just that once again Russian media publishes an article on the Russian military procurement that you can interpret in so many ways... And AMCXXL's comment seems to confirm my "fears".

Regarding the first 12, my point was this: so there's a plan to get the first squadron, the first 12 planes by the end of 2020. But if they order 0 this year and only 2 planes in 2019, they would need to order 10 in 2020 to achieve that. So does that really mean that RuAF won't even manage that at this rate? At first it was around 60, then 12... and now maybe, possibly... I don't know, 4?

Yeah, let's not take it too seriously at this stage, but it really is a bit worrying, IMO. Because that is how I read the article: 0 this year, 2 in 2019 + plus maybe another squadron with the new engines between 2020-27.

Kimppis wrote:It's just that once again Russian media publishes an article on the Russian military procurement that you can interpret in so many ways... And AMCXXL's comment seems to confirm my "fears".

Regarding the first 12, my point was this: so there's a plan to get the first squadron, the first 12 planes by the end of 2020. But if they order 0 this year and only 2 planes in 2019, they would need to order 10 in 2020 to achieve that. So does that really mean that RuAF won't even manage that at this rate? At first it was around 60, then 12... and now maybe, possibly... I don't know, 4?

Yeah, let's not take it too seriously at this stage, but it really is a bit worrying, IMO. Because that is how I read the article: 0 this year, 2 in 2019 + plus maybe another squadron with the new engines between 2020-27.  

They are in no hurray as the new engines and weapons are not ready yet. These units with be interim technology.

franco wrote:

Kimppis wrote:It's just that once again Russian media publishes an article on the Russian military procurement that you can interpret in so many ways... And AMCXXL's comment seems to confirm my "fears".

Regarding the first 12, my point was this: so there's a plan to get the first squadron, the first 12 planes by the end of 2020. But if they order 0 this year and only 2 planes in 2019, they would need to order 10 in 2020 to achieve that. So does that really mean that RuAF won't even manage that at this rate? At first it was around 60, then 12... and now maybe, possibly... I don't know, 4?

Yeah, let's not take it too seriously at this stage, but it really is a bit worrying, IMO. Because that is how I read the article: 0 this year, 2 in 2019 + plus maybe another squadron with the new engines between 2020-27.  

They are in no hurray as the new engines and weapons are not ready yet. These units with be interim technology.  

I though izd.810 and R-77M were ready a long time ago.

Kimppis wrote:It's just that once again Russian media publishes an article on the Russian military procurement that you can interpret in so many ways... And AMCXXL's comment seems to confirm my "fears".

Regarding the first 12, my point was this: so there's a plan to get the first squadron, the first 12 planes by the end of 2020. But if they order 0 this year and only 2 planes in 2019, they would need to order 10 in 2020 to achieve that. So does that really mean that RuAF won't even manage that at this rate? At first it was around 60, then 12... and now maybe, possibly... I don't know, 4?

Yeah, let's not take it too seriously at this stage, but it really is a bit worrying, IMO. Because that is how I read the article: 0 this year, 2 in 2019 + plus maybe another squadron with the new engines between 2020-27.  

Procurement are usually a squad. So 12 would fit 1 squad. Hence why Su-30 and Su-35 are ordered in 12's.

Kimppis wrote:It's just that once again Russian media publishes an article on the Russian military procurement that you can interpret in so many ways... And AMCXXL's comment seems to confirm my "fears".

Regarding the first 12, my point was this: so there's a plan to get the first squadron, the first 12 planes by the end of 2020. But if they order 0 this year and only 2 planes in 2019, they would need to order 10 in 2020 to achieve that. So does that really mean that RuAF won't even manage that at this rate? At first it was around 60, then 12... and now maybe, possibly... I don't know, 4?

Yeah, let's not take it too seriously at this stage, but it really is a bit worrying, IMO. Because that is how I read the article: 0 this year, 2 in 2019 + plus maybe another squadron with the new engines between 2020-27.  

Unless you find official contract that shows how many they ordered, all the numbers you see are bullshit. It's like the 30 gorshkov or the 2500 t-14.

They never order max amount. It's always small contracts if they have money. If not they don't order anymore. 60 is what air force need just like 30 gorshkov is what navy want and just like 2500 armata is what army wants but they won't get it before many years.

30 Gorshkovs (and actually I think it was more like 20?) and 2500 Armatas isn't the same thing at all.

First of all, I think that Armata number was always BS. That would have replaced the whole MBT fleet with T-14 in a few years time. They were talking about 2500 modern tanks by 2020, that included upgrades. That is still going to happen, btw. Sure, they probably wanted more Armatas than they'll be getting, but surely it was always going to be less than 1000 T-14s by 2020. So the "2 thousand Armatas" analogy would work if we were talking about 200 Su-57s by 2020, but no, it's about 60 Su-57s by 2025.

The Gorshkov comparison doesn't actually work either. I think the original plan was to have 6 by 2020, not many more than that in any case, now they'll get 4 instead. That 60 Su-57s by 2025 should be like the bare minimum.  

It's pathetic if they won't be able to get 60 Su-57s by the mid 2020s. There's no way around it. Again, that 60 isn't what the Air Force "needs", they need around 200, eventually yes, but still. And I know they order in squadrons, but the article makes it sound like that they won't be able to get 12 (!!! 12!) by the end 2020 either and very few after that until the mid-20s.

At this rate most small NATO-countries will have dozens of F-35s (no matter how... unbalanced the design is, it certainly isn't THAT bad) and India's indigenous 5th generation fighter will be ready before Russia has more than 20 Su-57s in service (and I'm actually half serious). (And for obvious reasons, let's not even talk about China, which already has J-20 in multiple combat units, but that was inevitable, so whatever.)

EDIT: I'm not saying that the article is necessarily accurate, and I sure hope not (if I read it in any way correctly), but that sounds... bad. That's all. Not spinning it.

Eurpean countries won't have as many f 35 as they want. The price will be just to high for them. They can't even have modern f-16 in big numbers. The f-35 will be more than 100 million per unit for sure. And they will get those that will need deep modernization because they are not finished.

Su-57 willl be at least combat ready and well tested.