Project 971: Akula class

walle83 wrote:Whats the point by then? India should spend the money on its own subs insted.

India's indigenous SSN won't be available before 2030.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defence/story/20210426-india-s-nuclear-sharks-1791817-2021-04-17

RTN wrote:Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed. A well-designed pump jet is considerably quieter than an equivalent propeller. Pumpjet design had advanced over many years with a particular focus on the characteristics of all the components. Russia is of course not up to speed technologically.

Hey bud, Boreis have pump jets...  yer Murican edumakayshun is showing there boy...  

BTW we've previously covered this pumpjet nonsense well and truly in this forum. May I suggest that you pay a little more attention to what your betters are discussing?

RTN wrote:

walle83 wrote:India did what they should have done. Use the shit out of the submarine to learn as much as they possibly can. And then give it back before the Russians could bill them for another 10 years. Having one SSN never gave them much strategic value.

Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed. A well-designed pump jet is considerably quieter than an equivalent propeller. Pumpjet design had advanced over many years with a particular focus on the characteristics of all the components. Russia is of course not up to speed technologically.

India being a poor, third world country can't afford Western SSNs, SSBNs, so they settle for Russian nuclear submarines.

It is more of a PR than real advantage.


Pumpjet has only a narrow range of pressure and speed where it gives advantage, outside of it they increase the noise or decrease the speed compared to screw.

Reason why only the ballistic submarines using it in the Russian inventory, the more capable (regards of speed and deep) hunter submarines still using screw.


The pumpjet on the Virginias showing they inferriority, regards of general capabilities, not supperiority.

All advantage of pumpjet can be achived by diving deeper than the adversary, and running faster than they with the pumpjet in greater pressure (deep) zones.

Sujoy wrote:

walle83 wrote:Whats the point by then? India should spend the money on its own subs insted.

India's indigenous SSN won't be available before 2030.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defence/story/20210426-india-s-nuclear-sharks-1791817-2021-04-17

If they put the 3 billion on development and construction insted it probably would speed things up.

The Chinese and U.S naval shipbuilding industry's strength lies in the large production runs that the PLA-Navy and U.S Navy can order. That's what Russia should be aiming for. Apart from targeting lucrative markets like Middle East and parts of Western Europe.

Instead, Russian military exports is focused on poverty stricken failed states like India.

This is why despite tremendous potential Russia is still way below China and US in defence exports.

walle83 wrote:If they put the 3 billion on development and construction insted it probably would speed things up.

Yes! That makes sense. But unlike your country Sweden there is a lot more corruption, red tapism that exists here in India.

That's why most defence projects are running behind schedule and most of the military hardware is imported.

Sujoy wrote:

walle83 wrote:If they put the 3 billion on development and construction insted it probably would speed things up.

Yes! That makes sense. But unlike your country Sweden there is a lot more corruption, red tapism that exists here in India.

That's why most defence projects are running behind schedule and most of the military hardware is imported.

Maybe you should put the money on fighting corruption insted of nuclear submarines then.

And things in the military are always under budget here also, the same story for the last 40 years

RTN wrote:Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed. ...

Dude, seriously?

Borei- class? Since 2013 in service?

On it's second iteration?

You need to change that avatar because you no longer deserve to have it[/quote]

franco wrote:...Meanwhile, India does not intend to abandon the lease of Russian submarines. New Delhi plans to receive another project 971 nuclear submarine for a long-term lease no later than 2025. For the submarine K-391 "Bratsk", which is undergoing modernization at the Zvezdochka Ship Repair Center, a name has already been invented - Chakra 3. ...

Bratsk is the oldest one now so leasing it to India will not be affecting Russian Navy

And 3 billion bucks buys you quite a few Yasens


Photos of Nerpa/Chakra en route back home:

Seems every submarine thread on this site has to go through the pumpjet bs.

The Alrosa kilo is the only diesel electric sub in the world with a pumpjet

Isos wrote:I wonder why they don't just sell an export yasen to India. Just let them pay 1 billions per ship and make sure they are different from russian version.

Because it takes time to build Yasen and Russia wants Yasens for themselves (and don't want to share, ever)

Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

So what do the Russians plan to do with the Nerpa? Just fix it and re lease it or use it for themselves?

Isos wrote:I wonder why they don't just sell an export yasen to India. Just let them pay 1 billions per ship and make sure they are different from russian version.

Sell a more advanced vessel for less than half of what you would get by leasing a less advanced vessel for only 10 years?

franco wrote:I would be surprised if it was used further. It was old technology when it was leased out.

Old technology?  The concept of modernisation programs is somehow new to you?

Nerpa was laid down in 1993 (and suspended for many years until finally restarted and launched in 2008), and apart from Irbis (that was never completed) it is the newest of the Pr.971.  Provided it is in good condition, it could be an ideal candidate for deep modernisation like her older sisters. Its modernisation may need more effort however given that it was completed without SOKS and other classified systems that wouldn't be made available to India.

PapaDragon wrote:Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

Based on open source information the price of a Yasen class sub is > US$ 1 billion. U.S Congress suggests Virgina class SSN costs around US$ 3 billion.

So why would an export version of Yasen cost US$ 4 billion or more?

Sujoy wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

Based on open source information the price of a Yasen class sub is > US$ 1 billion. U.S Congress suggests Virgina class SSN costs around US$ 3 billion.

So why would an export version of Yasen cost US$ 4 billion or more?

Due to sanctions, the USA:RUB xchg rate doesn't refelect any reality.


The price of the Yassen, manufactured by the USA would be 5-6 billion.

Western technologies like pump jets instead of propellers are way ahead of anything that Russia has developed.

That is an impressive claim... so the west must have torpedos that go faster than Skval-M which entered service more than two decades ago...

The Soviets tested pumpjets... Alrosa is the Kilo class sub they tested it on... sounds like it is not everything the west says it is.

A well-designed pump jet is considerably quieter than an equivalent propeller. Pumpjet design had advanced over many years with a particular focus on the characteristics of all the components. Russia is of course not up to speed technologically.

Not many areas of sub technology where Russia is actually behind... except production numbers of course.

India being a poor, third world country can't afford Western SSNs, SSBNs, so they settle for Russian nuclear submarines.

Western SSNs and SSBNs are not for sale.

The US would not have such a hard on for India if they didn't see the enormous future potential for selling them lots of their old naval shit to push them into a conflict with China... killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

If they put the 3 billion on development and construction insted it probably would speed things up.

The question really is what is holding them up... sometimes throwing money at the problem just creates corruption or makes it worse and does not speed up anything at all.

This is why despite tremendous potential Russia is still way below China and US in defence exports.

The US has a captive market that Russia can really do nothing about. Chinas market is bargain basement sales... not really worth having to be honest.

Yes! That makes sense. But unlike your country Sweden there is a lot more corruption, red tapism that exists here in India.

Developing a safe reliable SSN is not about how much money you throw at it... you have to take the time and get it right.

That's why most defence projects are running behind schedule and most of the military hardware is imported.

India needs a huge reform in its military..... trying to make everything yourself is actually stupid because you are not a big enough market to justify the extra cost of making it yourself.

There are of course things you could make but you let pride get in the way.

Instead of trying to make a super tank you should have made a good low cost tank and buy the super tank... if Tegas was a 4th gen fighter it would be in service and in service is where its problems will be fixed and its performance will massively improve.

Based on open source information the price of a Yasen class sub is > US$ 1 billion. U.S Congress suggests Virgina class SSN costs around US$ 3 billion.

So why would an export version of Yasen cost US$ 4 billion or more?

No export country gets the same rates as the Russian military... I seem to remember it being written into law that the markup on weapons and equipment for the Russian military cannot exceed 3-4%... which is why exports of weapons is so important for Russian Arms companies.... it is where they make good money.

The Russians typically export their stuff at twice to thrice the going rates for domestic orders, probably even more if its a particularly sensitive big ticket item like a nuclear submarine. Its not because they are greedy, but because the closest analogues would cost just about as much, and if your product has close if not better capability...

Sujoy wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Also any export Yasen would cost waaaaay more than measly 1 billion, I am talking about more than 4 billion here at least

Plus amount of hardware they would have to take out of it in order to get a monkey version plus testing would be crazy, it would be like designing a whole new subclass of boats

Based on open source information the price of a Yasen class sub is > US$ 1 billion. U.S Congress suggests Virgina class SSN costs around US$ 3 billion.

So why would an export version of Yasen cost US$ 4 billion or more?

Because Russia gets them at manufacturing price

Anything that gets exported costs twice as much or more

Plus it's a seller's market, there is no competition and they can ask whatever they want

And fact remains that Russia does not want to lease Yasen let alone sell one

Akula yes, Yasen hell no

Imagine USA leasing Zumwalt, it would cost way more than USN paid for buying new one not that they would ever do it just like Russia and Yasen

Isos wrote:And then India will build its own SSN like it's doing with SSBN and just not lease any russian sub.

They are already loosing many contracts in India. Soon they will sell nothing new to them....

India has been building it's own nuke sub for decades and they still ain't got nothing to show for it

As for losing contracts Russians simply don't give a fu¢k about it because it's nowhere near important

They don't want to give Yasen to anyone, end of story

Maybe in 30 years if Russia decides it has too many subs on the roster

Isos wrote:They already have two version of Yasen. Export version can be a monkey version of the first yasen designed in the 90s.

About systems it's not a problem, they can take a lot from kilo subs or older reseach programs. They already gave them access to a russian version akula which was the best they had at the time and it wasn't an issue.

And India would pay for the program.

No they don't have two versions of Yasens, they have one version with different sonar array

Also Akula was nowhere near the best they had at the time (especially that stripped down junker they gave them), Oscar and Yasen were

Russia will not build Yasen for India because they want to build them for themselves just like USA will not build Virginia for anyone

When was the last time anyone exported nuclear submarine? Hint: never

This fantasy about India going anywhere near Yasen in any version is some BS that Indian brass pulled out of their asses for local consumption that idiots online keep repeating for some stupid reason

Even if by some parallel universe miracle Russians do decide to lease​ Yasen to India it will cost them double digit billion of bucks just for version with equipment from Kilo SSK on it for less than 10 year lease

India is not getting Yasen, period