Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

Big_Gazza wrote:

hoom wrote:If it's Onyx only thats a little disappointing actually, I like the idea of Russia having the option to send an Oscar off to Syria & launch a crapload of Kalibrs on the Jihadis, or even just to have a mixed anti-ship salvo.

Agree, and I'd regret the inability to carry the Kalibre ASW variant, as this could be very useful for the 949AM as self-protection against enemy SSNs (though its probably doubtful that they have the sonar capabilities to detect and track a modern quiet SSN sufficiently to use such a long range missile/torp).

Still, as Seig states, its not actually confirmed yet, so watch this space.

P-800's can hit land targets... The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.

hoom wrote:

P-800's can hit land targets... The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.

Can hit land targets yes but with a limited range.
From the viewpoint of keeping the Oscars as a dedicated CVBG deterrent sure, anti-ship missiles only.
But to me I see having the option of putting a heap of Kalibrs on them as a pretty easy opportunity to also ramp up Russia's Conventional Deterrent.

TheArmenian wrote:I haven't seen anything that mentions that K-266 Orel has received P-800 Onyx upgrade. AFAIK, after its recent modernization in Zvezdochka (in the North-West of the country), it still retains the Granits.

The Project 949A Oscar submarines that are getting the more extensive modernization (including the missile upgrade) are the K-132 Irkutsk and K-442 Chelyabinsk. These modernization are currently being done in the Far East at Zvezda shipyard.
Both Onyx and Kalibr are most likely. Zircon will probably be added once it is ready.

The granit range is at least 1000 km.

You likely won't either, just like how Russia never announced two Akula submarines are fitted with kalibers, the two they sent to syria last October. (Unless British Naval Intelligence is wrong which I doubt)

Note the words "Previously installed on the submarine project anti-ship cruise missiles complex P-700 "Granit""

At the bottom.

P-800's can hit land targets

hoom wrote:Why is everyone talking about Granit range?
The quote was

P-800's can hit land targets

-> I'm talking P-800/Onyx range which is pretty short.

GarryB wrote:Onyx is not Granit... Onyx is about 2.5 tons of missile... Granit is 7 tons of missile.

Granit is ship based only so is not covered by INF treaty.

Regarding comments about land attack not being the mission of the Soviet SSGNs... that is true, but then the Kirov upgrades are supposed to replace ship attack only Granits with UKSK launchers able to carry anti ship, anti sub, and land attack missiles.

The question really is what are they upgrading the new vessels with... is it something that is missile specific or is it a universal tube able to carry a range of missile types.

Personally I suspect they will go for the latter as it guarantees their future growth in terms of missile options... it means when Zircon becomes available then it can be deployed on more platforms immediately.

In terms of logistics it makes sense to have standardised launchers and missiles so a Pacific fleet sub going to the Northern Fleet does not have to worry about what missiles it can be loaded with...

AFAIK the Granit has a range of about 600km or so.

Isos wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

hoom wrote:

P-800's can hit land targets... The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.

Can hit land targets yes but with a limited range.
From the viewpoint of keeping the Oscars as a dedicated CVBG deterrent sure, anti-ship missiles only.
But to me I see having the option of putting a heap of Kalibrs on them as a pretty easy opportunity to also ramp up Russia's Conventional Deterrent.

The granit range is at least 1000 km.

The granit is as big as the mig-21, and that has 2200 km ferry range.

Granit is supersonic all the way ...

Isos wrote:

The SR-71 had 6000 km range with 3 match, at 24km height.

The SR-71 had oversized wings to take of from airstrips,was designed in the 60s, gas turbine to accelerate the airplane to match 1, landing gears and so on.
So, a simple aircraft without the restriction/drag of thesr-71 should be more effective,and should have longer range.

So if someone say that the grait has 6000 km range then it is more plausible than the 600km .

Same for the onyx.


By very high chance the only key parameter / difference between the 700/800 is the electronic weight/generation.

Granit is meant to fly at low altitudes, even most anti air missiles can't fly at 24 km... let alone anti ship missile. Kh-22 can fly higher and has just 1000 km range max but it is air lunched.

Sr-71 at 24km has far less drag than Granit at 2km.

It's not plausible it is stupid. Even Kalibr land Attack missile designeed for long range Attack has arond 2000 km. A supersonic missile will burn much faster its fuel as it needs more power because of the air density.

P-700 is 10T while P-800 is 3-4 T. I am pretty sur it's not about elec weight.

Isos wrote:Sr-71 was intercepted by Mig-31, no ? So it's not a fake plane.

These stuff are not in the same leauge like the SAMs.

The 12 Granit from the Kuz can destroy a carrier group, 12 SAM can destroy 4-5 aircraft from thi group.

See the difference?

So , why the CCCP designers would restrict the P-700?

Its basic design allow to fly at 24 km with 3-4 match, for thousands of KMs.


The end rush must be low, few meters above the water, with the highest possible speed.

It means it needs to accelerate from as high as possible.

And why yoi think that the tomahawk or calibr range is as big as the official number?

Granit is supersonic all the way. For achieving 24 km altitude it would take all the fuel it has in it. Designers didn't restrict anything, it's the physic laws that did.

12 Granit won't go through a carrier group. They planed to lunch granits from kuz, kirov and oscar at the same time to go trough US defences.

You should stop thinking that every official number is a lie. Actually, it's the oposite. Achieving a 2500 km range for a cruise missile is a big achievement, many countries would want that.

Singular_Transform wrote:

Isos wrote:

The SR-71 had 6000 km range with 3 match, at 24km height.

The SR-71 had oversized wings to take of from airstrips,was designed in the 60s, gas turbine to accelerate the airplane to match 1, landing gears and so on.
So, a simple aircraft without the restriction/drag of thesr-71 should be more effective,and should have longer range.

So if someone say that the grait has 6000 km range then it is more plausible than the 600km .

Same for the onyx.


By very high chance the only key parameter / difference between the 700/800 is the electronic weight/generation.

Granit is meant to fly at low altitudes, even most anti air missiles can't fly at 24 km... let alone anti ship missile. Kh-22 can fly higher and has just 1000 km range max but it is air lunched.

Sr-71 at 24km has far less drag than Granit at 2km.

It's not plausible it is stupid. Even Kalibr land Attack missile designeed for long range Attack has arond 2000 km. A supersonic missile will burn much faster its fuel as it needs more power because of the air density.

P-700 is 10T while P-800 is 3-4 T. I am pretty sur it's not about elec weight.

These stuff are not in the same leauge like the SAMs.

The 12 Granit from  the Kuz can destroy a carrier group, 12 SAM can destroy 4-5 aircraft from thi group.

See the difference?

So , why the CCCP designers would restrict the P-700?

Its basic design allow to fly at 24 km with 3-4 match, for thousands of KMs.


The end rush must be low, few meters above the water, with the highest possible speed.

It means it needs to accelerate from as high as possible.

And why yoi think that the tomahawk or calibr range is as big as the official number?

Militarov wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

Isos wrote:

The SR-71 had 6000 km range with 3 match, at 24km height.

The SR-71 had oversized wings to take of from airstrips,was designed in the 60s, gas turbine to accelerate the airplane to match 1, landing gears and so on.
So, a simple aircraft without the restriction/drag of thesr-71 should be more effective,and should have longer range.

So if someone say that the grait has 6000 km range then it is more plausible than the 600km .

Same for the onyx.


By very high chance the only key parameter / difference between the 700/800 is the electronic weight/generation.

Granit is meant to fly at low altitudes, even most anti air missiles can't fly at 24 km... let alone anti ship missile. Kh-22 can fly higher and has just 1000 km range max but it is air lunched.

Sr-71 at 24km has far less drag than Granit at 2km.

It's not plausible it is stupid. Even Kalibr land Attack missile designeed for long range Attack has arond 2000 km. A supersonic missile will burn much faster its fuel as it needs more power because of the air density.

P-700 is 10T while P-800 is 3-4 T. I am pretty sur it's not about elec weight.

These stuff are not in the same leauge like the SAMs.

The 12 Granit from  the Kuz can destroy a carrier group, 12 SAM can destroy 4-5 aircraft from thi group.

See the difference?

So , why the CCCP designers would restrict the P-700?

Its basic design allow to fly at 24 km with 3-4 match, for thousands of KMs.


The end rush must be low, few meters above the water, with the highest possible speed.

It means it needs to accelerate from as high as possible.

And why yoi think that the tomahawk or calibr range is as big as the official number?

12 Granits to destroy battlegroup? Every ship commander would trade his left arm if he managed to get 3 or 4 immobilisations from salvo of 12 Granits.

Singular_Transform wrote:


300 kt warhead make magic possible

But even two supersonic conventional warhead can badly damage a carrier.

Militarov wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:


300 kt warhead make magic possible

But even two supersonic conventional warhead can badly damage a carrier.

IF, you hit the target.

Also from what i am aware it should be 500kt. And i belive those are not normally seen around these days, they carry Gex warheads these days.

Isos wrote:


Even old version of anti air missile can shoot them. Why do you think they were lunched in salvos ???

Isos wrote:
Aster missiles were tested against mach 3 targets and they even touched the target, they didn't just exploded but dammaged it with a direct contact.

Its speed at low altitude is more like mach 1.5 than mach 3. The only anti ship missile with the capability to go back to the target if it missed is the exocet. Till today I've never heard about another doing this. For the granit it's probably impossible to do 180° turn.