+22

Odin of Ossetia

Isos

Aristide

George1

Viktor

jhelb

kvs

Rodion_Romanovic

Cowboy's daughter

magnumcromagnon

higurashihougi

flamming_python

Regular

GarryB

TR1

Werewolf

KomissarBojanchev

zg18

Jyshky

Admin

sepheronx

Jelena

26 posters

Go to page :

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°51

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:41 am

They wrote today in LeMonde, that Putin doesnt blame Germany for WW II but rather the allies of WWI who pushed Germany in desperation.

The Russians hate the Germans who raped and murdered millions of people in their country over a period of half a decade, but that does not mean they don't recognise that it was the actions of Britain and France and the US after the end of WWI that created the conditions necessary to engineer a character like Hitler.

Essentially Britain and France and the US blamed Germany for all the hardships and death and destruction of WWI when to be impartial and fair about it... they were no more to blame than any other country that fought in that war... their only crime was to find themselves on the losing side... and the irony is enormous because they did exactly the same thing after WWII and created the cold war... and after the end of the Soviet Union in 1990 they did it again, though initially ignoring Russia when they controlled Yeltsen, when Putin entered power and started building Russia up to become a great power again they have blamed Russia for everything ever since.

Everything is Putins fault from Brexit to Trump being elected...

Anyways what makes me wonder is how Putin wants politics be done in Europe and the world. For Europe he says the Great powers, UK, Germany, France and Russia should sit together and settle things.

That is what he wants but it is not going to happen because at the very least the UK and probably France and Germany will ask for American permission and they will only get American permission if the US can attend and it will end up like a G8 meeting where 7 countries bitch and moan because their economies are not going well because of Russian interference or some such shit.

The North Sea Route the Russians are developing is not for Russian trade... it is for trade between Asia and Europe. Russia would be happy to have good relations with Europe and have said as much multiple times... so does China... but the US doesn't want that because the overpriced American weapons they want you to buy don't make sense when Russia or China are not an enemy... and cheaper trade between Asia and Europe makes it easier for Europeans to buy stuff from Asia and for Asians to buy stuff from Europe... American stuff remains the same price to ship and so it becomes less competitive in both markets... the Americans hate that... they want to trade with Asia and Europe but they don't want you to trade with each other... especially in Euros...

I find it odd that he sees the small nations like Poland, Estonia and so on as mere distractions who cause nothing but conflict between the various powers

Isn't that what they are? They are like small dogs... they bark a lot but don't actually do very much... they used to be Russia's companion dogs and now they are HATOs companion dogs... Putin probably doesn't give them a second thought because like most real men their parasitic nature and loud yappy bark probably pissed him off more than anything...

Gospel by the Bolsheviks which Hitler was supposed to depose- in that sense, Germany & USSR can both be blamed for the war.

So it is the fault of the Soviets because hitler hated their choice of political system so it was partly their fault the war started?

Piss off...

The fault of WWII was Germany, but the reason Germany started WWII was because they were punished far too harshly after WWI by the western allies... who essentially took the anti german sentiment of the time to steal Germanies land and colonies around the world... American Samoa... I had a maths teacher from American Samoa... he had an excellent American name... Mr Schwalga... he was ethnically Samoan with a German name because Samoa was a German colony until the Americans used WWI as an excuse to steal it. Britain and France also stole former German colonies and out posts... that was what it was... a huge land and resource grab... no wonder the Germans were pissed off and voted in Hitler who promised to get them more land again... his only mistake was to head east into the Soviet Union.

Do you agree with his idea to ignore Poland, Estonia and so on and that European issues should be solved between Germany, Russia, France and UK?

What is the point of talking to Estonia or Poland... is their history suddenly going to change or just disappear and they will suddenly become reasonable?

I doubt it.

Yes, I do. Poland & the 3 Baltic states r pawns- instead of becoming/staying neutral like Austria & Sweden, they drew their lot with NATO & have no independent foreign policy, just like Georgia & Ukraine.
After all the wars in Europe, they should be thankful that they r still on the map.

You are right, but I am afraid the UK and France and Germany are also pawns to the US MIC which needs a big bad enemy which has possibly shifted to China but no doubt still includes Russia so I really doubt much progress could be made.

With that dick Johnson in power in the UK I would expect a 0% chance of anything sensible there, and Merkel... how long will she even be there... Micron might see the way the wind is blowing and be useful to talk to but even then I doubt there will be much progress...

Russia should just keep looking to the east... China and India and South Korea... I wouldn't expect much from Japan though...

France and Germany are the strongest EU states but very often do not agree on almost everything. That's why other EU countries should invest themselves more and Fr/Ger shoukd listen more to them.

I don't think the EU thinks it is an independent state... it is a vassal of the US... when they want to wear big trousers and make their own decisions and have their own opinions it might be worth talking to them but otherwise it is a waste of time...

Maybe in 5 years or so...

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°52

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:08 pm

So it is the fault of the Soviets because hitler hated their choice of political system so it was partly their fault the war started?

Moscow was to Berlin what Carthage was to Rome: even w/o Bolshevism, the West would have found another excuse to use Germany against the USSR/Russia, as she wouldn't be colonized & not be dictated to. There were German colonists since Catherine II but Germany (it wasn't even unified then) had no control over them. I'm sure if the conditions were right & agriculture wasn't collectivized, more Germans would've been willing to emigrate there for their lebensraum & be allowed to come. Then, the Nazi ideology would be nipped in the bud. The other German colonies in Africa & Pacific weren't suitable for that even had Berlin remained in control there after WWI.
Anglophile Hitler came to, & stayed in power, thanks to foreign help & his anti-Bolshevism platform; he allowed himself to be used, trusting misinfo. fed to him by the Brits & underestimating the USSR industrial potential. His hope of Japan entering the war in the Soviet Far East also didn't materialize, making only Germany fighting a 2 front war longer than any1 else.
Vladimir Putin: The Real Lessons of the 75th Anniversary of V-Day https://nationalinterest.org/feature/vladimir-putin-real-lessons-75th-anniversary-world-war-ii-162982

https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2987965.html

https://www.1tv.ru/news/2020-06-19/388053-bolshaya_statya_vladimir_putina_o_vtoroy_mirovoy_voyne_opublikovana_v_rossii_i_ssha

https://www.pravdareport.com/russia/144679-putin_article/

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°53

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:37 am

Interesting, and obviously speculative, but how about this... how about Hitler was a bit more realistic and didn't spend most of his time on LSD and wasn't drugged up like Michael Jackson and could think clearly and instead of invading the Soviet Union and being all anti semetic, he could have just directed the real blame where it was deserved and could easily be proven... it was France and the UK and the US that stole their colonies around the world and literally took resources and money and German land directly from them after WWII... a war Germany was no more to blame for than any other country that fought... German crimes were mainly being a modern force with machine guns and artillery that slaughtered British and French troops in enormous numbers and had their own troops similarly killed because they hadn't taken the obvious step mentally to realise that machine guns and artillery against natives often killed a few thousand and then the enemy gave up, but when the other side has artillery and machine guns every bit as good as yours then there is a bloody stalemate that kills millions.

What if Hitler just said it is colonial Britain and France who punished us for something we didn't do... Russia would understand that right now because economic sanctions have been imposed with out any due process or actual convincing evidence... just opinion... it is highly likely because that is what we would do in their shoes... imagine a court where a judge said that to someone accused of rape or murder...

If Hitler blamed the west he could very easily have continued cooperation with the Soviet Union which stopped when he came to power in the early 1930s... before then they both lost land because of the west after WWI and were both treated as the bad guys internationally by the west and had a lot in common... what I find interesting however is that the influence of most Soviet early tanks was french and british and not German but obviously that is because that is something Hitler started so it was never part of the cooperation between Germany and the Soviet Union.

Imagine the different it would make if they were allies... sharing information and technology... and production capacity... and available man power... without the racist anti semetic bullshit they could have been full allies... the Japanese invasion of the Pacific would have been totally unnecessary... wood and oil and other materials could have been shipped to them from Siberia. The T-34 tank could have been modified for a better crew fighting capability... gunner, loader and commander in the turret with better optics and radios... the KV-1 as a heavy tank could have used the long barrel 75mm gun of the Panther and been the long range tank killer with heavy armour... the Soviet Fighters would have benefited enormously from the powerful German aircraft engines, and of course the opportunity to produce things in western Russian without having to move everything past the Urals would have meant a potent production capacity supporting their needs...

With German collaboration the war in Spain would have Germany and the Soviets on the same side so that would be over much quicker... the war in Finland would not have happened because Stalin would not be worried about the vulnerability of Leningrad and want to have more land around it to make it easier to defence from a naval landing...

I doubt they would have bothered to invade the US directly but the UK would certainly be a nice target for both Germany and the Soviets to occupy after all the shit the Brits have been responsible in terms of interfering in German and Soviet/Russian affairs.

Of course having said that if Germany hadn't helped Lenin and there was no Russian civil war things would have been rather different too... the baltic states and ukraine and belarus would likely not exist as separate entities because they wouldn't have been.

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°54

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:34 am

I don't think that even w/o ideological differences Hitler & Stalin could peacefully coexist. The descendants of Teutonic knights & Holy Roman Empire convinced of their superiority over the E. Slavs & the upstart "3rd Rome" Ivan IV created wouldn't make any concessions to the latter. That's why the Nazis tried to placate the British:
https://ria.ru/20200622/1573275083.html

Hitler didn't even allow the ROA under Gen. Vlasov to the front lines.
The Brits & US failed in using Germany to destroy the USSR; the latter became stronger than ever before, but they did succeed in the Cold War. Now the West got weaker as a result of all the wars & regime changes it was involved in after 1945; its colonialism & slave trade boomeranged on it while nothing of this sort happened in Russia which was never a racist colonizer & slaver.
It should be remembered that during the Cold War the West supported apartheid in S. Africa, but it too ended up on the scrapheap of history.

Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°55

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:27 am

I don't think that even w/o ideological differences Hitler & Stalin could peacefully coexist.

All the Germans had to do was shoot Lenin as a Russian spy during WWI instead of trying and succeeding to send him home to destroy Russia.

Imagine if the civil war was not between the monarchists and the commies.... imagine if it was just monarchists vs anti monarchists... socialist but not actually communist... really a bit like Russia right now with free elections... No matter who got in to power they would have their work cut out because Russia was a backward country and turning it around would not be quick or easy... but then Putin did it without the violence and prison camps that Stalin used...

Hitler didn't even allow the ROA under Gen. Vlasov to the front lines.

Well that is just basic common sense... you don't let a force of traitors to operate near a front line where they can be traitors again....

The Brits & US failed in using Germany to destroy the USSR; the latter became stronger than ever before, but they did succeed in the Cold War.

Did they really... they certainly seriously damaged both sides with very little damage to themselves.

Succeeding in the Cold War is so close to nothing it is not worth mentioning... Effectively the Russians started to have elections and the parasite countries surrounding them were cut away... if the west actually believed the bullshit it spouts then Russia actually won the cold war because they were freed from communism and now enjoy the fruits of capitalism and democracy...

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°56

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:30 pm

All the Germans had to do was shoot Lenin as a Russian spy during WWI instead of trying and succeeding to send him home to destroy Russia.
Imagine if the civil war was not between the monarchists and the commies.... imagine if it was just monarchists vs anti monarchists... socialist but not actually communist...

even w/o Lenin, there were many other social democrat & anti-monarchist/marxist leaders who could take his place. Germany had him sign a separate peace, leading to the civil war & eventual Soviet defeats in Poland, Spain & Finland. But by the 1939 her diplomacy under Hitler was worse than British & Soviet- otherwise she would not be dragged to a war with the USSR & US, carpet bombed, & tried at Nuremberg.

Well that is just basic common sense... you don't let a force of traitors to operate near a front line where they can be traitors again....

no, the fear was that Vlasov, being Russian nationalist, would form his gov. on occupied lands Germans wanted to themselves & later confront the Germans.

if the west actually believed the bullshit it spouts then Russia actually won the cold war because they were freed from communism and now enjoy the fruits of capitalism and democracy...

but at the expense of territorial, economic & population losses she's still recovering from. Local wars in Chechnya, Georgia, & Ukraine r just holding actions before the larger ops come into being.

George1

George1: Posts : 18524
Points : 19029
Join date : 2011-12-22
Location : Greece

Post n°57

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

George1 Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:25 pm

Putin says impossible to imagine world’s future, if Red Army had not defended it

The Russian president stated that it is important to remember that the Soviet people had borne the brunt of the struggle against Nazism

MOSCOW, June 24. /TASS/. The future of the world cannot be imagined, if the Red Army had not defended it, Russian President Vladimir Putin said during the Victory Parade on Moscow’s Red Square on Wednesday.

"It is impossible even to imagine what would have become with the world, if the Red Army had not come to its defense," the head of state said.

"Its soldiers [the soldiers of the Red Army] needed neither the war nor other countries, nor glory, nor honors. They strove to crush the enemy, achieve the victory and return home. And they paid an irretrievable price for the freedom of Europe," Putin stressed.

The Russian president stated that it is important to remember that the Soviet people had borne the brunt of the struggle against Nazism. "Many hundreds of thousands of soldiers fell in a foreign land and it is our duty to remember this and remember that the Soviet people bore the brunt of the struggle against Nazism," Putin said.

"In 1945, over 80% of the armed forces of Germany and its satellite states were concentrated against the USSR but this ruthless armada turned out to be powerless before the unity of Soviet citizens," Putin pointed out.

"It was our people that defeated the terrible, total evil," the Russian leader stressed.

As the Russian president recalled, the Soviet people "crushed over 600 enemy divisions, destroyed 75% of the total number of enemy aircraft, tanks and artillery guns and made its heroic, righteous and boundlessly sacrificial way to the end, to the victorious point."

"This is the main, honest and the unbiased truth about the war. We must take care of it and safeguard it, pass it on to our children, grandsons and great grandsons," Putin said.

"We will always remember that the Soviet people crushed Nazism," the Russian president said.

As Putin emphasized, these were "millions of people of various nationalities from all the republics of the Soviet Union." "Both on the front and in the rear, in guerilla detachments and in the underground, they fought and worked under the laws of courage and unity, defending their land and continuing their struggle," he said.

"They liberated European states from the invaders and put an end to the terrible tragedy of Holocaust and saved the people of Germany from Nazism, from its fatal ideology," the Russian leader said.

As the Russian leader noted, "today’s military parade honors this sacred truth, honors the outstanding generation of victors who shaped the outcome of the entire world war."

https://tass.com/defense/1171199

GarryB likes this post

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°58

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:48 am

even w/o Lenin, there were many other social democrat & anti-monarchist/marxist leaders who could take his place. Germany had him sign a separate peace, leading to the civil war & eventual Soviet defeats in Poland, Spain & Finland.

But you are assuming that any civil war would mean the eventual winners of the Russian civil war would be defeated by Poland and would have even cared about Spain or Finland.

A Russian civil war where there was no communist side just anti monarchists might have led to the US and Britain supporting the anti monarchists instead and creating the Russian federation in 1919 instead of 1990 or whenever... Russia could stay intact and Poland and the Baltic States might never have been and Belarus and Ukraine might never have become separate states either... and a new Federal Russia would not have seen a need to fight in Spain, and there would be no reason to ask Finland for territory to enable Leningrad to be better protected from foreign invasion... in fact it would still be St Petersberg.

But by the 1939 her diplomacy under Hitler was worse than British & Soviet- otherwise she would not be dragged to a war with the USSR & US, carpet bombed, & tried at Nuremberg.

They managed to expand Germany several times without starting the war... they even got the west to sign off on ripping up several countries... it was only the UK that objected to Poland being invaded and even then they didn't actually do very much about it... it was called the phoney war... as soon as war was declared by the UK for the German invasion of Poland the air raid sirens in Britain went off... but nothing happened... no bombing or shooting except in Poland of course...

The fact that Germany lost the war is hardly evidence that they were poor at diplomacy.

Bad at picking fights with enemies they clearly underestimated...

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°59

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:30 am

Russia could stay intact and Poland and the Baltic States might never have been and Belarus and Ukraine might never have become separate states either... and a new Federal Russia would not have seen a need to fight in Spain, and there would be no reason to ask Finland for territory to enable Leningrad to be better protected from foreign invasion...

FYI, Lenin gave Finland independence in 1918, w/o him in power she would also remain part of Russia; Kerensky or his successors would need to sign an armistice with Germany anyway.

They managed to expand Germany several times without starting the war... it was only the UK that objected to Poland being invaded and even then they didn't actually do very much about it... it was called the phoney war...

thanks to the Western desire to bring them into direct contact with the USSR to facilitate the war between them.

The fact that Germany lost the war is hardly evidence that they were poor at diplomacy.

the British had done most of the work for them. R. Gess last ditch effort was too little, too late- after they failed to accommodate the USSR- their diplomatic skill could be a lot better than it was.
The Thai WWII diplomacy was more skillful- by siding with Japan & later switching sides they avoided the bloodshed like in Malaysia, Burma, Vietnam & China.

Bad at picking fights with enemies they clearly underestimated...

Hitler hoped he would get support from the Brits & Japan if not USA once he took Moscow. Japan bombed Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41 instead of Vladivostok, Khabarovsk, N. Sakhalin & Kamchatka only after it didn't happen.
Despite their earlier defeat at Khalkhin Gol, the Japanese would've hoped to play on local separatism & could have used conscripted Koreans & Chinese to invade & occupy the Soviet FE.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°60

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:50 am

FYI, Lenin gave Finland independence in 1918, w/o him in power she would also remain part of Russia; Kerensky or his successors would need to sign an armistice with Germany anyway.

Well there you go... Finland is not a real country either...

thanks to the Western desire to bring them into direct contact with the USSR to facilitate the war between them.

But how was it ever to go any differently. Germany attacked west first so if that was the intent then it didn't really work.

the British had done most of the work for them. R. Gess last ditch effort was too little, too late- after they failed to accommodate the USSR- their diplomatic skill could be a lot better than it was.
The Thai WWII diplomacy was more skillful- by siding with Japan & later switching sides they avoided the bloodshed like in Malaysia, Burma, Vietnam & China.

If that is the definition then Italy was the most diplomatic...

Hitler hoped he would get support from the Brits & Japan if not USA once he took Moscow.

He did not. He was having the Luftwaffe bomb the UK and was getting bombed in turn by the Brits and the Yanks... many non nazi Germans thought taht when Hitler was out of the way they could form an alliance with the west and fight the Soviets but that wasn't even considered by the Brits and the Yanks at the time.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41 instead of Vladivostok, Khabarovsk, N. Sakhalin & Kamchatka only after it didn't happen.

They tried to invade Mongolia in 39 and were soundly beaten by the Soviets... leading them to change their focus from oil and wood and resources in Siberia to oil and wood and resources further south... in the Pacific... The US was a threat and needed to be challenged... the attack on Pearl Harbour was always going to be necessary... and if it was the Americans that planned and executed it it would have been an amazing piece of pre-emptive self defence... it was certainly not an unprovoked attack... the US and UK had Japan under shipping embargo... an act of war if ever there was one.

Despite their earlier defeat at Khalkhin Gol, the Japanese would've hoped to play on local separatism & could have used conscripted Koreans & Chinese to invade & occupy the Soviet FE.

What local separatism? Why do you think the Chinese or Koreans would fight for Japan in Mongolia or Russia... they didn't fight for them anywhere else...

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°61

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:07 am

Germany attacked west first so if that was the intent then it didn't really work.

at Dunkirk Hitler allowed the Brits to evacuate her army in hope to reach a peace deal. We still don't know many details of what went on behind the scenes as they r still classified in the UK.

If that is the definition then Italy was the most diplomatic...

Finland, Romania & Bulgaria did the same, but Italy suffered a lot more than all of them.

..leading them to change their focus from oil and wood and resources in Siberia to oil and wood and resources further south... in the Pacific... The US was a threat and needed to be challenged... the attack on Pearl Harbour was always going to be necessary...

if they took E. Siberia/FE, SE Asian resources wouldn't need to be fought over. They had their plate full in China which btw had many of those as well. Western colonies in Indochina weren't going to be a big threat.

What local separatism?

there were many white emigres in China for Japan to use; the natives & GULAG inmates, former & current, in E. Siberia/FE that been subjugated/colonized/exiled could also help.

Why do you think the Chinese or Koreans would fight for Japan in Mongolia or Russia... they didn't fight for them anywhere else...

There were many collaborators during the Japanese occupation of Korea & most of China; the Chinese/Manchurians could be auxiliaries/mercenaries & many Koreans did serve in the IJA, which was building up forces in Manchuria for planned attack in the FE after Moscow was taken. The Chinese could hope to use the Japanese to regain lost territories &/ revenge their losses; there would be a lot more of them than the Japanese colonists to settle there. Asians r masters of double & triple crosses.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°62

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:54 am

at Dunkirk Hitler allowed the Brits to evacuate her army in hope to reach a peace deal. We still don't know many details of what went on behind the scenes as they r still classified in the UK.

They had just rolled over them so easily I doubt he saw them as much of a threat... and as they had the UK basically block aided and they leftmost of their equipment in France they had been largely neutralised as a threat anyway.

We don't know what on behind closed doors, but we do know both sides bombed the crap out of each other for quite some time after that...

Finland, Romania & Bulgaria did the same, but Italy suffered a lot more than all of them.

All the countries on continental europe except Germany changed sides depending on which troops were on their territory... it has nothing to do with courage and everything to do with not being stupid... if the Brits didn't have an English Channel to hide behind things would have been rather different for them... they didn't have the distance the Soviets had to stretch the German lines... and more importantly they were not getting exterminated by the Germans like the Soviets were so surrender was actually an option...

But only Italy and France get shit for changing sides...

if they took E. Siberia/FE, SE Asian resources wouldn't need to be fought over.

But they couldn't take them... they tried and failed and got their asses handed to them so badly they changed their policy and headed south instead.

As a growing power however they were always going to come in conflict with the British Empire and the US... both of which occupied territory in the region... it is amusing when the west talks about imperial Japan and their aggression but ignore the French and British and American colonies they were liberating for themselves... it seems that under western rule the oppressed locals were better off than being under Japanese rule, but the locals quickly worked out that independence was actually the best solution of them all.

They had their plate full in China which btw had many of those as well. Western colonies in Indochina weren't going to be a big threat.

Japan had plans to expand its empire... and why shouldn't it... Britain did, France did, the US did.... it sounds very hollow westerners calling the Japanese bad for doing exactly what the west had already done itself.

there were many white emigres in China for Japan to use; the natives & GULAG inmates, former & current, in E. Siberia/FE that been subjugated/colonized/exiled could also help.

Rubbish... they spoke Russian... why would they trade being Russian for being a subject of Japan?

Asians r masters of double & triple crosses.

Yeah, you say that but they were getting screwed by white people as much as anyone else... opium wars etc etc...

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°63

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:55 pm

..we do know both sides bombed the crap out of each other for quite some time after that...

1 big mistake led to the other after German bombs fell on British civilians.

But they couldn't take them... they tried and failed and got their asses handed to them so badly they changed their policy and headed south instead.

but if Moscow did fall, they were ready to implement their plans to include the taking of Transbaikal & FE areas. The bigger part of the Kwantung Army otherwise would be fighting the Chinese KMT instead of standing on the USSR & Mongolian borders waiting for the "go" signal.

Rubbish... they spoke Russian... why would they trade being Russian for being a subject of Japan?

they would hope to get autonomy or independence later like Generals Vlasov & Krasnov in the West. The Japanese interacting with them would know Russian &/ other European languages which Russians also knew.

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°64

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:55 am

1 big mistake led to the other after German bombs fell on British civilians.

If the Germans had actually been bombing military targets in Britain they might have won that part of the conflict.

Bombing the radars and airfields and the British would have been screwed. After taking out the RAF they could then have concentrated on taking out the Royal Navy and then planned their invasion of the UK. Remember they were still receiving material from the Soviet Union at this stage... oil, steel etc etc by 43 they probably could have mounted a successful invasion of the UK... the Soviets were only allies with the west because both were fighting the Germans... if the Germans had left invasion of the Soviet Union until 1944 or so things could have been rather different... the Soviets could have replaced their polikarpov fighters and T-26 tanks with more capable models and spent more time improving their defences because they would know once Germany had defeated the UK that they were next... but lets let them continue to fight Britain and weaken each other... eventually the Germans would have introduced the Tiger tank but the Panther was a knee jerk reaction to the shock of the T-34 so would not have existed. For fighting the British their existing tank types would have been fine so no rapid development or modernisation there...

The US would have had to have sent carriers to the UK to boost the RAF which would have reduced their ability in the Pacific...

but if Moscow did fall, they were ready to implement their plans to include the taking of Transbaikal & FE areas.

The German army was in no condition to take Moscow... in 41 or at any other time... armies plan for everything... in itself it means nothing... Britain had plans to continue WWII and fight the Soviets after germany was defeated but there was no political or military capacity or will to follow through with such plans.

The bigger part of the Kwantung Army otherwise would be fighting the Chinese KMT instead of standing on the USSR & Mongolian borders waiting for the "go" signal.

If the Japs had a huge force on the borders of Mongolia ready to invade, why would the Soviet spy in Japan tell Stalin it was OK to transfer troops from the Far East to Moscow?

they would hope to get autonomy or independence later like Generals Vlasov & Krasnov in the West. The Japanese interacting with them would know Russian &/ other European languages which Russians also knew.

The Russians disliked the Japanese more than they disliked the Germans... both sent troops to Russia to interfere in the civil war there...

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°65

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:40 am

If the Germans had actually been bombing military targets in Britain they might have won that part of the conflict.
Bombing the radars and airfields and the British would have been screwed. After taking out the RAF they could then have concentrated on taking out the Royal Navy and then planned their invasion of the UK.

the Spitfires won the air battle for Britain. Goering asked his pilots what they needed to win it & was told: give us those fighters.

The German army was in no condition to take Moscow...

Polish, French & Crimean Tatar armies took it before, & the Germans were stopped only 20 miles from the Kremlin:
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/germans-advance-in-ussr#:~:text=The%20German%20offensive%20against%20Moscow,on%2C%20safe%20from%20the%20fighting

It's wasn't clear to the Japanese until November-December 1941 that the Blitzkrieg failed.

If the Japs had a huge force on the borders of Mongolia ready to invade, why would the Soviet spy in Japan tell Stalin it was OK to transfer troops from the Far East to Moscow?

his well placed contacts told him that Japan won't attack the Soviet FE in 1941-42; he reported that & Stalin with his General Staff decided to transfer troops. As mentioned on another thread, only 3 divisions went West; the local conscription gradually replaced them in case Japan did attack- the threat was still remained.

The Russians disliked the Japanese more than they disliked the Germans...

I would say they hated them both at about the same level- for the losses in 1941 & the 1905 defeat in the Russo-Japanese War: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-russo-japanese-war-begins#:~:text=In%20January%201905%2C%20the%20strategic,destroyed%20by%20Togo%20near%20the

SeigSoloyvov

SeigSoloyvov: Posts : 3919
Points : 3897
Join date : 2016-04-08

Post n°66

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

SeigSoloyvov Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:23 am

Eh, The Germans could have taken Moscow, the problem was Hitlar gave them orders which pretty much doomed them but even if they took Moscow it wouldn't have changed the end result. So taking Moscow would have been useless in the end.

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°67

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:03 am

Being the major transportation hub & the capital of RSFR & USSR, its loss would make it a lot harder, if not impossible, to turn the tide in the war. In the meantime, Japan would use this golden opportunity she was waiting for to take the E. Coast of Russia & E. Siberia.
Thanks to the Serbs resisting them in the Balkans, the Germans postponed their Barbarossa from May till 6/22/41, wrecking the whole campaign & the entire war. Good incidental payback for Russia's help against Ottoman Turkey & during WWI!

As noted before, w/o Chinese tying up the IJA, there would be a lot more Allied casualties. India also helped a lot:
https://nvo.ng.ru/history/2020-06-25/11_1097_india.html?print=Y

A historian interview on reasons for German-Soviet war:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTf4Yvx0rnc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM5RuzYIQTA

He says that Hitler & Stalin had irreconcilable ambitions & were too suspicious of each other to agree on who gets what if/after German defeats of the British Empire.

Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:51 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add link)

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°68

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:45 pm

More details on Japanese deliberations & tactics on attacking the USSR:
https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3001585.html

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°69

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:14 am

the Spitfires won the air battle for Britain. Goering asked his pilots what they needed to win it & was told: give us those fighters.

Not really... the Spitfires were allowed to do well because they were new and capable fighters... the Hurricanes shot down more bombers being an older type they were ordered to concentrate on the bombers which they did while the Spitfires took on the fighters.

If the German bombers had concentrated on bombing the radar sites... they were big and fixed and would be easy targets then the Spitfires and Hurricanes would have had to fly patrols to detect enemy aircraft rather than sitting on the airfields waiting for warnings from the radar sites.

Then the bombers could have hit the airfields and wiped out the Spitfires and Hurricanes... much easier to get them on the ground and kill their crews and ground crews... the Germans had highly skilled fighter pilots and good fighters but if you don't kill the enemy airfields they are operating over friendly territory and can bail out easily enough...

Polish, French & Crimean Tatar armies took it before, & the Germans were stopped only 20 miles from the Kremlin:

The arrogance of the Germans meant their troops were not properly prepared for that first winter so the German troops really suffered. They would have suffered less if they had taken Moscow because they would have had places to shelter from the cold. They were simply unable to do it.

his well placed contacts told him that Japan won't attack the Soviet FE in 1941-42; he reported that & Stalin with his General Staff decided to transfer troops. As mentioned on another thread, only 3 divisions went West; the local conscription gradually replaced them in case Japan did attack- the threat was still remained.

I don't buy it... if they had the force there then when they noticed troops being transferred they might change their plans and attack...

I would say they hated them both at about the same level

Well earned in both cases...

Eh, The Germans could have taken Moscow,

Clearly they couldn't... they tried and they didn't.

He says that Hitler & Stalin had irreconcilable ambitions & were too suspicious of each other to agree on who gets what if/after German defeats of the British Empire.

Hahahaha... but Stalin and Roosevelt and Churchill were best buddies that saw eye to eye on absolutely everything...

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°70

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:05 am

if they had the force there then when they noticed troops being transferred they might change their plans and attack...

the article in my prev post shows that the Japanese set on the fence to see if Germany could defeat the Red Army in Europe before risking opening a 2nd front. Germans insisting on it also showed them that they met their match.
They were right as the Wehrmacht, the SS, & their allies 1st failed to take Moscow, then Leningrad, Stalingrad & Baku.
They also had different naval strategies- the only commonality was them seeking lebensraum, having rich mil. history & being US enemies.
https://www.amazon.com/Reluctant-Allies-German-Japanese-Naval-Relations/dp/1557504652

Let's not forget that the Japanese were not very trusting of Germans-Hitler called them little monkeys. If the USSR & Germany by some miracle got allied & fought Britain together, or if Germany didn't attack the USSR & continued fighting the UK, Japan would even less likely attack the USSR in the FE- Stalin was very shrewd to use China to keep Japan busy south of the border, & he would increase support to the KMT should Japan make more attempts to take on the USSR.
More on Soviet retaking of Manchuria: https://ria.ru/20200730/1575083943.html

3rd Reich final days: https://ria.ru/20200416/1570076565.html?in=t

https://ria.ru/20200509/1571111578.html?in=t

Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°71

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:00 pm

https://aif.ru/society/history/seks_s_rotoy_soldat_iznasilovali_li_zapadnye_soyuzniki_million_nemok

The Americans also replaced Japanese in Korea doing the same things.
Most rapes by the Red Army soldiers occurred in Prussia- 1 of them told it all on a video.
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2018/03/11/PICTURES-The-largest-mass-rape-in-history

kvs

kvs: Posts : 15861
Points : 15996
Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada

Post n°72

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

kvs Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:26 am

Rape is nowhere on the same level as murder. So all the hate propaganda that insinuates that it is makes for intellectually insulting drivel.

The usual atrocity pattern is for rape followed by murder. Two orgasms for the price of one.

All the efforts to make it look like Soviet soldiers were somehow distinct in the level of rape is typical NATzO BS. One "witness"
does not prove 2,000,000 rapes. He only proves his own crime assuming he was not paid to lie about it.

Odin of Ossetia

Odin of Ossetia: Posts : 947
Points : 1034
Join date : 2015-07-03

Post n°73

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Odin of Ossetia Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:58 pm

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://aif.ru/society/history/seks_s_rotoy_soldat_iznasilovali_li_zapadnye_soyuzniki_million_nemok

The Americans also replaced Japanese in Korea doing the same things.
Most rapes by the Red Army soldiers occurred in Prussia- 1 of them told it all on a video.
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2018/03/11/PICTURES-The-largest-mass-rape-in-history

Al-Arabiya is concerned about the Nazi German anti-Semites being raped?

Are not Jews and Ismaelites brothers?

They both descend from Abraham.

Where is their brotherly love?

Tsavo Lion

Tsavo Lion: Posts : 5959
Points : 5911
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA

Post n°74

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Tsavo Lion Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:50 am

I bet not all of those raped were anti-semites. Don't paint them the same color. Most Germans didn't even know about the killings in concentration camps run by the SS.

Odin of Ossetia dislikes this post

GarryB

GarryB: Posts : 40558
Points : 41060
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand

Post n°75

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

GarryB Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:20 pm

Most Germans didn't even know about the killings in concentration camps run by the SS.

They weren't that upset about them either... all they cared about was all those angry soviet soldiers on their way... considering what German troops did in the Soviet Union they got off very lightly... most of the 27 odd million Soviets killed were civilians...

Russia Defence Forum

Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Putin says impossible to imagine world’s future, if Red Army had not defended it

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Re: Revisionism about WWII and USSR

Similar topics

Similar topics