That's what I'm saying. Frigates are not enough for operating far away and they need destroyers or cruiser with more VLS.
With VLS there is no need for a 2.0 Kiriv of 25 000t.
Good so we agree. Certainly a new from scratch design cruiser does not need to be as big as the Kirovs are, but the new modular weapon systems and much more powerful radar and sensors and of course internal fibre optic communications and satellite communications and much better communications between platforms (ships, subs, aircraft, satellites, drones etc etc) means it will be vastly more capable yet probably not as large or heavy.
Japan would make a no fly zone pretty quickly and destroy all the ground launcher in kurils pretty quickly. They have 250 f15, 100 f16, and soon 100 f35. Russia has some flankers but most of its aviation is facing nato.
What would they destroy the ground launchers with?
The air defences over their Pacific Fleet base is pretty strong even if you don't include the ships and air force aircraft...
If Japan tries to strike targets everyone acknowledge as being in Russian territory then they lose any pretence at just wanting their islands back... just assembling a landing force will be noticed, and any attempt to send it for "exercises" near the Kuriles would be an obvious provocation that would send alarm bells ringing in Russia.
Mobilising an attack force would be enough warning to mobilise a response... and that response might kill some Russian fighter pilots, but would likely kill thousands of Japanese sailors. Russian pilots don't need to fly attack missions into Japanese territory... Japanese pilots would need to deal with the SAM threat covering the entire island and any ground based anti ship missile system within 500km of the Kuriles...
MiG-31s operate there and some of them can carry Kinzhals...
How could Japan enforce a no fly zone anywhere except over Japanese airspace... they have no authority to do so over international airspace or indeed Russian airspace over the Kuriles... but also no means to do so... you have to dominate an air space before you can declare a no fly zone... how is Japan going to wipe out or deal with Russias air defence network?
The only thing they couldn't face is the long range missiles and tupolevs. But you cab't win a war with only that.
Aircraft need airfields to operate from... Kinzhals could obliterate command centres and HQs as well as ships and military bases in Japan. Kh-32 could do the same. It would not take long to move Su-35s to the region and MiG-31s would already be there equipped with 300km range R-37M air to air missiles.
Russia is a piper tiger when it comes to power projection and rely on its nuks to forbid the other nation to touch its soldiers. Without them all its forces in Syria, Lybia, cebtral Africa would have been destroyed.
Yes, they are corrupt and all you have to do is kick the door and the whole rotten edifice will collapse itself...
Except that Russian soldiers and commanders and planners seem to have done an exceptional job in Syria... they did a better job in the Crimea than any HATO country could have... the Americans would have shot thousands of people in comparison... the French and British too.... though probably not as many dead...
Japan would not risk invading the Kuriles now or in the near future... maybe in the 1990s, but certainly not now.
They are not connected to Russian systems. The best they could do is use the radio. Networkcentric warfare is systems exchanging in real time btw themselves so that if your plane sees something then your ships see that too. In the best case they can use that for missike targeting.
You mean like they did to Syrian air defence systems in Syria... so they could easily do that then... right?
Certainly if the US is being belligerent enough... which they normally are...
Exactly the only strength of Russia is strategic nuclear weapon. The US has 180 F-22 and another 500F 35. More NATO countries are buying F-35. Russia does not even have a single serial Su-57. He will buy 76 pieces in big bulbs for the next 10 years.
It is not the strategic nuclear forces holding the Kurile islands, nor is it in Syria or anywhere else the Russians operate...
You can spout off that the US has 180 F-22s but how many are actually operational?
How many are they prepared to operate near a functioning S-400 system and Su-35s let alone Su-57s?
Would love to see HATO buy 10,000 F-35s... it would destroy them...
Pacific fleet is rust. Japan navy is way more powerfull. Japanese air force is huge and could deal with russian east forces. If they destroy pacific fleets landing ships russia will be left with nothing to take them back.
They have to take them in the first place, and I rather doubt they could... any landing ship would be obliterated fairly quickly and it would quickly turn in to a debacle for the Japs... they understand island warfare and would know not to try.
Japans force is a defence force... it will take a bit of BS to get the country behind an invasion... especially an invasion of Russia...
What saved Assad are the russian nuks. If Russia didn't had nuks its syrian base would have been destroyed easily. Actually they wouldn't have had any bases there and Russia would have been cut into pieces since the 50s.
The nukes were never even threatened to be used, and it was Russia that basically reorganised and re equipped the Syrians together with the Iranians to face off against the terrorist forces arrayed against them by HATO and Saudi Arabia.
I don't remember HATO or Saudi backing off in any way... they just had their surrogate head choppers defeated on the battlefield and could either send in their own troops to escalate or do nothing and let their terrorist friends rot... they did the latter... unsurprisingly... if they had any balls it would be their people in there doing the fighting in the first place... but even their own troops don't want to fight make some billionaire family at home into trillionaires...
Japan has everything to make its own nuks. If US leave Japan they will be alone against three nuclear armed countries and it wouldn't take them long to think about starting their own program.
Doesn't matter either... even if they started production right now it would be decades before they had as many as Russia and just having a few for deterrence is likely all their population will tolerate. Having a few wont keep them safe if they invade Russia no matter how many times they say it is Japanese territory... and a few would be easier to target...
So as lsos writes, Russia is just a nuclear power and nothing else.
Yeah, being the only country currently able to wipe out the west as we know it is not really that much... especially with the efforts of western countries to do it to themselves first...
But you did just made excellent argument in favor of Russia dropping conventional military and fully switching to nuclear
Would make them too brittle... a Ukrainian attempt to take Crimea back by force would probably only need the people of Crimea to stop and push back but an attempt by Poland to take back Kaliningrad after a particularly big HATO exercise on their territory that had lots of US armoured divisions... well actually nuking the fuck out of Poland might actually be a bit satisfying rather than wasting more Russian blood on those fucking ungrateful euro cunts....
There are times and situations when conventional military force is a proportional response to get your way, where a tactical nuclear strike is going overboard.
The Russian Forces allowed to be active in Syria, to strike terrorist and to deter hostile forces (Turkey, USA, Israel!). Turkey respects the Su-35 and the S-400 in Syria for sure
They liked the Razor so much they bought one for themselves...
Maybe we will see the Super Gorshkov soon Smile as a kind of stimulus package for russian economy ;D
Their next priorities will be ramping up production of the Corvettes and Frigates that work and are useful, and then work on a scaled up design for a destroyer sized vessel because many of the cold war types probably are not worth upgrading too much.
For example...if Russia would take the Baltics, they would determine the location of fight and the time of fight, with a short chain of logistics from Mainland the Baltics couldn't withstand Russia, even with all the might of NATO to defend them. On the other hand Russia would face big problems invading Kansas City ;D
Agreed, but the Pacific Fleet is located right next to the Kurill islands and there are forces on the Islands that would give warning of an attack that could be used to mount some quick counter attacks that should blunt any invasion.
On the Falklands Islands there were some marines and they managed to destroy a few armoured landing vehicles with LAW rockets before being overwhelmed... I would suspect warning of large Japanese landing ships would enable a few anti ship batteries to launch dozens of anti ship missiles at the landing ships and ships supporting the landing within hours... it would be like the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia... the special forces would likely arrive first and their capacity to protect the airfield while reinforcements are landed would make Japans job a nightmare...
Japan has 8 guided missile destroyers and 30 ships more or less to Gorshkov-class (tonnage). Additional 6 corvettes and 4 helicopter carrier, with F-35B they are some kind of aircraft carrier. Don't underestimate the Japanese Navy, even China respects Japan in terms of naval warfare.
The Russians have put Kinzhal in service... it is effectively an anti carrier missile... wouldn't really need it in the black sea or the northern fleet due to the conditions not really being conducive to carrier warfare... only place you would probably base them is the far east near the pacific fleet... 8 guided missile destroyers you say... how long would they last?
Would be interesting to see, but how long do you think they would remain within range... especially after the first salvo...
First time someone attacks you you kill them, kill their families, kill their entire population, incinerate their country and cripple their neighbors
You do that once and others will stop having stupid ideas
Sounds brutal, but if you are soft there is no point in carrying a stick you wont ever use...
[qutoe]You nuke the ship that hijacked Russian ship[/quote]
Sadly the west has hijacked Russian ships and kidnapped Russian people around the world... I like your idea... hand them back or boom.
Azi wrote:
with this attitude, humanity doesn't deserve to survive! ;D
PD wrote:
For Russia only thing that should matter is Russia, mankind is of secondary imporance
Deserve doesn't come in to it... you either do or you don't...
For the price of 1 Leader they can build several smaller FF/DD/CGs- the time for white elephants is over.
Sorry that is bullshit.
You can't say one ship costs the same as 3 smaller ships and then say lets make three smaller ships.
With that stupid fucking logic Russia should stop developing S-500 and get rid of S-400 and S-350 and Pantsir and TOR and all the other SAM systems they developed and just make millions of MANPADS.
An accountant would say three small ships can do what one big ship can.
Someone who knows something about navies will say American spends 13 billion dollars on their super carriers because they are worth it... when they work.
Every one keeps bringing up this american ship or that chinese ship with 200 vertical missile launchers... well small ships can't carry 200 vertical missile launchers.
You can't have a navy of speed boats... the Ukrainian navy is not a model to try to emulate. You need different sized boats for different roles and purposes, but it is important to get them right to start with because once they are right the idea is to make quite a few of them so they actually become significant.
They are at the point of accepting corvettes and frigates into service and time will tell if they are worth buying in numbers, but soon they will need destroyer and cruiser sized ships when the current models that they are using can no longer be upgraded or are ready to be replaced because they need something better.
In many ways their new frigates are as good as their old destroyers, but their smaller size gives them less endurance. Scale them up a few thousand tons and they will make great replacements... but they need to work that out before laying down new destroyers and cruisers willy nilly based on some design some company posted on the internet.
[qutoe]I would like to see a proper model of the Super Gorshkov before making any White Elephant claims about the Leader, after all, if its an elephant then what the hell is the Kirov?[/quote]
The Kirov had and has some problems but was the first ship with vertical missile launchers to enter operational service.
It will be rather like the Falklands then. Well turned up to x10
It would be like the Falklands but instead of the UK being in another hemisphere, them being right next to them on the map... all well within missile range... without refuelling.
Russia clearly said it will use nuks against an overwhelming force.
Which is what all nuclear powers say except the US who wants to be allowed to use them on bunkers their conventional bombs can't reach...
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An attacker would try to destroy russian airfields, using saturation attacks with CM and tactical missiles. So all problems for the opponent are your own problems. The real situation would be far more complex.
