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UAVs have become to much of a buzz word. What TYPE of UAV will this be? Autonomous, slaved to another plane? swarmed, ground control? AI driven? This plane is a really nice size and overall package. They can do a lot of things with it. Best to think it through so they don't spread themselves too thin and end up with a jack of all trades master of none...kinda like the F-35.
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65 posters
Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2
mnztr- Posts : 2907
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GarryB- Posts : 40560
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The SU-24 is only cheap because its old and built in Soviet days. Thus tons of spares and planes in the boneyard. All you really need to pay for is fluids. Even the weapons are surplus. Heck it probably SAVES Russia money to bomb with this plane lol. If you had to build a new SU-24 type plane, it would NOT be cheap...ie SU-34.
You are missing the point.
There were obviously very good reasons why they used the Su-24 for the role of dropping dumb bombs on targets in Syria, many of its features makes it useful.
It can be fast, it has very good range, its upgrades meant it could use much cheaper weapons for the role than say a non-upgraded Su-17 might... it would need guided weapons which would still get the job done but cost much more.
An Su-34 is newer but no faster and with the upgrades to the Su-24 probably not hugely more accurate with the bombs and possibly not cheaper as it is a bigger heavier aircraft.
The lesson they are actually learning is that with the correct avionics that they don't need a supersonic super plane to fly such missions and that simple and cheap can do the job too... they had the same revelation with the Su-25 regarding engaging ground targets where super expensive super high speed fighter planes were not as effective as their old MiG-15 simple cheap single engined obsolete fighters.
So like they developed a light cheap simple CAS aircraft in the form of the armoured Su-25 for the CAS role to replace the MiG-15... but not the fighter role, they will likely also create a light fighter bomber to do what the Su-24 did that is likely not going to replace their new super fighters either.
Now whether than cheap new fighter is checkmate or something MiG is making is up for question but clearly cost effectiveness is a component for the Russian military and also for many military forces around the world.
Being a numbers plane that is cheap to buy and operate means your coverage of your airspace will be much better and much more effective.
Sometimes a good navigation bombing system and some dumb bombs is all you need to deal with a target the US would spend millions of dollars blowing up with a cruise missile.
You could string a few targets together and hit multiple targets in one flight but that is not to say you would be carrying a lot of bombs.
Of course a good question would be why not give the Gefest & T bombing system to the Su-25... its ability to operate from forward airstrips and its high subsonic speed would make it probably cheaper, but I suspect the ground mapping radar of the Su-24 probably helps improve accuracy from altitude and its flight speed allows it to get to the target area faster and with less effort... and would be the sort of thing a light fighter bomber would engage in too.
Kiko
Kiko- Posts : 3899
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A new video with hidden messages for Turkey shows the unmanned version of the Checkmate, 16/11/2021.
Russian corporation Rostec has released a new promotional video for its new fifth-generation fighter, the Checkmate. Among other things, the recording shows its unmanned version and some hidden messages.
The video begins with a speech about the importance of staying one step ahead of the enemy and why it is necessary to take unconventional actions. To allude to the poaching of the fighter, also known as Su-75, the presenter talks about the fact that on the battlefield you have to be not only a ghost, but you also have to hear and see better than your enemies.
It is then that the fighter first eliminates the pawns, represented by the Turkish drone AKINCI, before confronting the king. At this moment an F-35 —which is seen as the main rival of the Su-75 in the arms market— appears in the sight of the pilot of the Russian fighter.
The following sequence presents a hidden message that is not so hidden to those who followed the news in this area in recent years.
"Open architecture and only proven solutions. Set up your plane and leave everything you don't need on the ground," says the presenter as the Checkmate leaves a cloud of dust on the F-16 and F-4 fighters, used by the Turkish Air Force.
Soon after, a scene appears where an operator opens a box that is normally used to transport missiles. In it you only find some snakes and on your tablet appears a message that says "Error, please renew your subscription".
In these moments the presenter says: "have confidence in what you possess, and that they will not bite your hand at the decisive moment."
This is an obvious hint to the ALIS logistics system, used in the F-35 program, where the U.S. centrally decides how and when to supply parts and armaments to foreign operators of these fifth generation fighters, as well as the fact that upgrades to the systems are done in a centralized manner.
The two scenes seem to have an obvious relationship with the situation experienced by Ankara after having bought the Russian S-400 air defense systems. In response, the U.S. refused to sell its F-35 fighters to the Ottoman country, even though the latter participated in their manufacture and made a pre-payment.
As for the Su-75, the images show the use of the Kh-59 Ovod medium-range air-to-ground missile, the Grom guided missile and the RVV-SD with a radar guidance system.
The video ends with an invitation to look to the future and innovation, and is accompanied by the illustration of the unmanned version of the new Russian fighter of fifth generation.
Yandex Translate from Spanish
https://mundo.sputniknews.com/20211116/un-nuevo-video-con-mensajes-ocultos-para-turquia-muestra-la-version-no-tripulada-del-checkmate-1118271118.html
Russian corporation Rostec has released a new promotional video for its new fifth-generation fighter, the Checkmate. Among other things, the recording shows its unmanned version and some hidden messages.
The video begins with a speech about the importance of staying one step ahead of the enemy and why it is necessary to take unconventional actions. To allude to the poaching of the fighter, also known as Su-75, the presenter talks about the fact that on the battlefield you have to be not only a ghost, but you also have to hear and see better than your enemies.
It is then that the fighter first eliminates the pawns, represented by the Turkish drone AKINCI, before confronting the king. At this moment an F-35 —which is seen as the main rival of the Su-75 in the arms market— appears in the sight of the pilot of the Russian fighter.
The following sequence presents a hidden message that is not so hidden to those who followed the news in this area in recent years.
"Open architecture and only proven solutions. Set up your plane and leave everything you don't need on the ground," says the presenter as the Checkmate leaves a cloud of dust on the F-16 and F-4 fighters, used by the Turkish Air Force.
Soon after, a scene appears where an operator opens a box that is normally used to transport missiles. In it you only find some snakes and on your tablet appears a message that says "Error, please renew your subscription".
In these moments the presenter says: "have confidence in what you possess, and that they will not bite your hand at the decisive moment."
This is an obvious hint to the ALIS logistics system, used in the F-35 program, where the U.S. centrally decides how and when to supply parts and armaments to foreign operators of these fifth generation fighters, as well as the fact that upgrades to the systems are done in a centralized manner.
The two scenes seem to have an obvious relationship with the situation experienced by Ankara after having bought the Russian S-400 air defense systems. In response, the U.S. refused to sell its F-35 fighters to the Ottoman country, even though the latter participated in their manufacture and made a pre-payment.
As for the Su-75, the images show the use of the Kh-59 Ovod medium-range air-to-ground missile, the Grom guided missile and the RVV-SD with a radar guidance system.
The video ends with an invitation to look to the future and innovation, and is accompanied by the illustration of the unmanned version of the new Russian fighter of fifth generation.
Yandex Translate from Spanish
https://mundo.sputniknews.com/20211116/un-nuevo-video-con-mensajes-ocultos-para-turquia-muestra-la-version-no-tripulada-del-checkmate-1118271118.html
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thegopnik- Posts : 1831
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Feel bad for the U.S., if UAE purchases this they will have to pullout the F-35s and their will be massive internet shitposting going on that not only you run away from the S-400 but also the LTS.
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Rasisuki Nebia- Posts : 136
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https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-intends-move-forward-f-35-sale-uae-us-official-says-2021-11-16/
Seems like they're getting the Flop-35.
Seems like they're getting the Flop-35.
thegopnik- Posts : 1831
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They have money, any U.S. lobbying to not make them purchase the LTS aircraft, propose sanctions or pullout F-35s is already throwing in the towel that its a POS aircraft if that hasnt been proven numerous times already but this will just seal the coffin for the aircraft.
LMFS- Posts : 5169
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Nice pictures of the side bays with what looks a R-77, thanks to betelyuz:
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kvs- Posts : 15871
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Best plywood prop ever. 
The attention to detail, including materials is amazing. Never though that plywood could be made to look like metal...
More seriously, it looks like this design was not cobbled together in a few months. There must have been a single engine
jet plan in action for a long time.
The attention to detail, including materials is amazing. Never though that plywood could be made to look like metal...
More seriously, it looks like this design was not cobbled together in a few months. There must have been a single engine
jet plan in action for a long time.
GarryB, dino00, Big_Gazza, zepia, thegopnik, LMFS, Hole and like this post
GarryB- Posts : 40560
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Looks like an R-77M with conventional tail fin...
TMA1- Posts : 1194
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I think it is the kab 250 shown in other images earlier. But the fact that the side bays can hold something so massive proves at least to me that these are not any old short range A2A bays. I am now absolutely sure these can carry r-77-1 missiles and probably R-77m. That means up to five long range A2A missiles internally. Not bad at all. The more I see this fighter the more I love it.
In the future it would be cool to see stubby anti-missile missiles put in it. Then say two R-77m missiles, two anti-missiles in tandem, and two more R-77m missiles in the side bays.
In the future it would be cool to see stubby anti-missile missiles put in it. Then say two R-77m missiles, two anti-missiles in tandem, and two more R-77m missiles in the side bays.
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JohninMK- Posts : 15658
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Imagine what the USAF is thinking?
If only we hadn't agreed to bring those bloody Navy/Marines on board, we could be flying something like that now.
If only we hadn't agreed to bring those bloody Navy/Marines on board, we could be flying something like that now.
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owais.usmani- Posts : 1829
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Well Sukhoi sure does know a thing or two about marketing! 
lancelot- Posts : 3181
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owais.usmani wrote:Well Sukhoi sure does know a thing or two about marketing!
They had to learn in the terrible 90s.
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GarryB wrote:
Of course a good question would be why not give the Gefest & T bombing system to the Su-25... its ability to operate from forward airstrips and its high subsonic speed would make it probably cheaper
This system exists not only for the Su-24. The Su-24 was the base aircraft for its development, but today this system is also equipped with the Tu-22M3, Su-33, MiG-27 (for export deliveries), Su-25. The possibility of adapting this sighting system for L-39 and Ka-52 helicopters has also been announced.
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LMFS- Posts : 5169
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Sorry if these are repeated news, I don't remember seeing this topic addressed explicitly. It seems to confirm that the LTS is de facto the substitute of the LMFS:
Russia expects to resume joint development with the UAE of a light fighter of the 5th generation based on Checkmate - the head of the UAC
14.11.2021 16:31:31
Dubai. November 14th. INTERFAX - The presentation of the Checkmate aircraft in Dubai is aimed at reviving the project for the joint development of a fifth-generation light fighter with the UAE, said Yuri Slyusar, head of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC).
"Since 2017, we have had a certain pause (in the implementation of the agreement - IF), but now the international premiere of this aircraft here in Dubai is the development of this project for a fifth-generation aircraft, in pursuance of this agreement with the UAE," Slyusar told reporters at Dubai Airshow-2021 on Sunday.
He explained that joint development with the Arab side is envisaged, which can begin with the Checkmate project.
"It's not a joint product yet, but we really hope that the joint work will continue," Slyusar said.
"We came here just to activate our negotiation process on the implementation of the agreement on the LFMS (light front-line multifunctional aircraft - IF) from 2017. We have several days of work ahead of us together with colleagues," the head of the UAC said.
In February 2017, the head of Rostec, Sergey Chemezov, announced that Russia and the United Arab Emirates would jointly develop a light fighter of the 5th generation. According to him, the aircraft can be created on the basis of the MiG-29, work will begin in 2018 and will take about 7-8 years.
The signing of an agreement with the UAE on the subject of a light front-line multifunctional aircraft of the fifth generation was also reported in the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) of Russia.
In March 2017, Ilya Tarasenko, being the CEO of the MiG Corporation, said that an improved version of the fifth-generation fighter being developed jointly with the UAE would be offered to the Russian Aerospace Forces. "We are already at the stage of developing this aircraft, and I think that in the coming years we will present this aircraft to the public," Tarasenko said.
In June of the same year, the head of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, told Interfax that Russia and the UAE were consulting and agreeing on the technical parameters of the future aircraft.
No work on the joint project has been reported since then.
https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=560445&lang=RU
Russia expects to resume joint development with the UAE of a light fighter of the 5th generation based on Checkmate - the head of the UAC
14.11.2021 16:31:31
Dubai. November 14th. INTERFAX - The presentation of the Checkmate aircraft in Dubai is aimed at reviving the project for the joint development of a fifth-generation light fighter with the UAE, said Yuri Slyusar, head of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC).
"Since 2017, we have had a certain pause (in the implementation of the agreement - IF), but now the international premiere of this aircraft here in Dubai is the development of this project for a fifth-generation aircraft, in pursuance of this agreement with the UAE," Slyusar told reporters at Dubai Airshow-2021 on Sunday.
He explained that joint development with the Arab side is envisaged, which can begin with the Checkmate project.
"It's not a joint product yet, but we really hope that the joint work will continue," Slyusar said.
"We came here just to activate our negotiation process on the implementation of the agreement on the LFMS (light front-line multifunctional aircraft - IF) from 2017. We have several days of work ahead of us together with colleagues," the head of the UAC said.
In February 2017, the head of Rostec, Sergey Chemezov, announced that Russia and the United Arab Emirates would jointly develop a light fighter of the 5th generation. According to him, the aircraft can be created on the basis of the MiG-29, work will begin in 2018 and will take about 7-8 years.
The signing of an agreement with the UAE on the subject of a light front-line multifunctional aircraft of the fifth generation was also reported in the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) of Russia.
In March 2017, Ilya Tarasenko, being the CEO of the MiG Corporation, said that an improved version of the fifth-generation fighter being developed jointly with the UAE would be offered to the Russian Aerospace Forces. "We are already at the stage of developing this aircraft, and I think that in the coming years we will present this aircraft to the public," Tarasenko said.
In June of the same year, the head of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheev, told Interfax that Russia and the UAE were consulting and agreeing on the technical parameters of the future aircraft.
No work on the joint project has been reported since then.
https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=560445&lang=RU
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GarryB- Posts : 40560
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This system exists not only for the Su-24.
Yes, I know.
A lot of the early work was supposed to have been done developing a blind bombing system for the MiG-25RB and the MiG-31 equivalent, where avionics fed all sorts of data into a ballistics computer using information from the aircrafts navigation and attack systems... ie radar, but also flight speed recorders etc etc.
The point is that this system is not expensive and can be installed in most aircraft including but not limited to the aircraft you mentioned.
In fact for Syria they might find an Su-22 with the system would be cheaper to operate than the Su-24 the Russians were using.
Moving forward a cheap and simple plane already in service would make sense... hence my suggestion of the Su-25 as being cheap to operate and able to be deployed well forward, and with a helmet mounted sights and R-73s would be able to defend itself reasonably well.
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GarryB wrote:The SU-24 is only cheap because its old and built in Soviet days. Thus tons of spares and planes in the boneyard. All you really need to pay for is fluids. Even the weapons are surplus. Heck it probably SAVES Russia money to bomb with this plane lol. If you had to build a new SU-24 type plane, it would NOT be cheap...ie SU-34.
You are missing the point.
There were obviously very good reasons why they used the Su-24 for the role of dropping dumb bombs on targets in Syria, many of its features makes it useful.
It can be fast, it has very good range, its upgrades meant it could use much cheaper weapons for the role than say a non-upgraded Su-17 might... it would need guided weapons which would still get the job done but cost much more.
An Su-34 is newer but no faster and with the upgrades to the Su-24 probably not hugely more accurate with the bombs and possibly not cheaper as it is a bigger heavier aircraft.
The lesson they are actually learning is that with the correct avionics that they don't need a supersonic super plane to fly such missions and that simple and cheap can do the job too... they had the same revelation with the Su-25 regarding engaging ground targets where super expensive super high speed fighter planes were not as effective as their old MiG-15 simple cheap single engined obsolete fighters.
So like they developed a light cheap simple CAS aircraft in the form of the armoured Su-25 for the CAS role to replace the MiG-15... but not the fighter role, they will likely also create a light fighter bomber to do what the Su-24 did that is likely not going to replace their new super fighters either.
Now whether than cheap new fighter is checkmate or something MiG is making is up for question but clearly cost effectiveness is a component for the Russian military and also for many military forces around the world.
Being a numbers plane that is cheap to buy and operate means your coverage of your airspace will be much better and much more effective.
Sometimes a good navigation bombing system and some dumb bombs is all you need to deal with a target the US would spend millions of dollars blowing up with a cruise missile.
You could string a few targets together and hit multiple targets in one flight but that is not to say you would be carrying a lot of bombs.
Of course a good question would be why not give the Gefest & T bombing system to the Su-25... its ability to operate from forward airstrips and its high subsonic speed would make it probably cheaper, but I suspect the ground mapping radar of the Su-24 probably helps improve accuracy from altitude and its flight speed allows it to get to the target area faster and with less effort... and would be the sort of thing a light fighter bomber would engage in too.
Is the SU-25SM3 not Gefest equipped? The SU-24 probably is end dated somewhere in the VKS, and fact is, due to the "lost years" the airframes probably have quite a bit of time left on them. So it makes sense to use these excellent, but sunsetting planes to fight this war. Yes the SU-34 using the same weapons and Gefest would provide no advantage. (other then some crew training which they did). BUT if it were not for the massive surplus inventory of SU-24 planes, parts, personnel etc, it would be a more expensive platform to operate. Russia apparently has 400 M2 upgraded SU-24s, that is 3200 tons of ordinance per sortie for the fleet. Crazy!!
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Just a nice plane, from every angle
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It doesn't have an inbuild gun ?
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what kind of idiot would look at this thing and say it's plywood?
Did these people not learn from seeing every piece of their informational vomit regarding the Su-57 program get torn apart ?
and what is up with assuming that the UAE is necessary for funding?
Did these people not learn from seeing every piece of their informational vomit regarding the Su-57 program get torn apart ?
and what is up with assuming that the UAE is necessary for funding?
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kvs wrote:Best plywood prop ever.
The attention to detail, including materials is amazing. Never though that plywood could be made to look like metal...
More seriously, it looks like this design was not cobbled together in a few months. There must have been a single engine
jet plan in action for a long time.
I guess there was a plan to have two fighters from the beginning, replicating Su-27/MiG-29 setup?
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pukovnik7 wrote:kvs wrote:Best plywood prop ever.
The attention to detail, including materials is amazing. Never though that plywood could be made to look like metal...
More seriously, it looks like this design was not cobbled together in a few months. There must have been a single engine
jet plan in action for a long time.
I guess there was a plan to have two fighters from the beginning, replicating Su-27/MiG-29 setup?
I think that there was some sort of hangup over the reliability of the engines with reluctance to adopt a single engine
design. But things change and Russian engine technology has advanced since the 1980s in spite of the economic
collapse of the 1990s. I am not sure what broke the final psychological barrier but this must have happened several
years ago at least.
Various "experts" were totally blindsided by this prototype because they never heard anything about it and assumed
that it would be business as usual. This is why we had all the inane plywood prop drivel when it was first shown.
Russia seems to have a good control over important information. We may see other surprises.
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