Sukhoi LTS "Checkmate" #2

Hole wrote:Most of the stuff going into the Su-75 is already tested on the Su-57 and/or Okhotnik. The first flight maybe delayed a few month but I doubt that they will need as many test flights/flight hours as with the Su-57. It will go pretty fast from first flight to first supersonic flight to first dropping of bombs/launching missiles.

That is the issue I was referring to above, we do not exactly know how is the share between digital and real world testing that this new DI standard demands, basically because it is a completely new paradigm. So, if they do not move the production dates to the right, it may well mean that they have figured out how to perform even a bigger part of the project on digital models than previously expected, and that would paradoxically mean good news... They may simply have delays, not excluding that at all. We just don't know.

ARMY 2022 interview with UAC's Yuri Slyusar

— That year, UAC introduced the Su-75 Checkmate single-engine light fighter. What is currently being done on the program of this aircraft? Have you already created a cooperative team that will participate in the creation of the fighter?

— The Checkmate project is at the stage of pre-production of the first prototypes. The basis of the project is formed, proven over the years, joint work, cooperation. The aircraft is created on a modular basis with an optional implementation of system elements. Due to this, the Checkmate project uses the best ready-made developments of the fifth generation.

During the time that has passed since the project was presented at MAKS-2021, work has been organized to receive feedback from potential customers. In addition to additional requirements from customers, work was carried out to optimize the cost and analyze individual technical solutions, which significantly increased competitiveness, commercial attractiveness, and also reduced technical risks when creating a domestic single-engine aircraft.

Based on these works, changes were made to the project, which also adjusted the timing of the first departure. But at the same time, the principle of modularity and modern digital technologies made it possible to make these changes in the shortest possible time, and we plan to start testing in 2024.

— Earlier it was stated that in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, work is underway to create several prototypes of Checkmate. How many machines are being created?

— In the Checkmate project, we use modern supercomputing technologies, which significantly reduces the construction time of a prototype and ensures the start of flight tests as early as 2024. Preparation for the production of two prototypes has now begun. In total, it is planned to build four prototypes.

— When do you plan to create an unmanned version of Checkmate?

— The unmanned version of Checkmate is being developed from the early design stages. Even now, the basic (single-seat) aircraft includes technical solutions that reduce the development time of the unmanned version.

The unmanned modification will significantly increase the efficiency of existing aircraft, eliminating the risk of loss of flight personnel. An unmanned version can be created simultaneously with a single-seat aircraft. The groundwork for the unmanned aircraft in terms of flight tests will be formed as part of advanced work on the manned version.

— What are the results of negotiations with the Ministry of Defense regarding the new Checkmate light fighter, as well as its unmanned version? Did the agency become a customer of the aircraft?

— The Su-75 is being created primarily as an export aircraft. We predict a fairly large niche in the global market. We are planning joint work and fruitful cooperation to support the work of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

At the same time, the implemented characteristics, including in terms of range and combat load, make it possible to use the Su-75 for the tasks of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and ensure the minimum cost of operation. And with the use of an unmanned version, an additional expansion of the capabilities of existing aviation complexes of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is being implemented.

https://tass.ru/interviews/15472119

Translating Slyusar's comments from ultra-politically-correct to common language:

> 1 year delay in the project due to redesign (is this related to considering VKS' input?)
> From a corporate perspective, the plane needs to sustain itself without VKS orders, at least in principle. But it is crystal clear they created it to fulfill the needs of the MoD due to
- Substantial Range and Payload (replacement of Su-30)
- Unmanned capacity (extension of the fleet at lower cost)

The Su-30's can serve for a long time to come. The Su-75 is an ideal platform for me to replace the Mig-29's and by doing so they can increase the VVS inventory substantially.

Mir wrote:The Su-30's can serve for a long time to come. The Su-75 is an ideal platform for me to replace the Mig-29's and by doing so they can increase the VVS inventory substantially.

There is no more mig-29 to replace. Su-30 replaced them. They will have to train lot of pilots and increase numbers with the su-75.

Isos wrote:

Mir wrote:The Su-30's can serve for a long time to come. The Su-75 is an ideal platform for me to replace the Mig-29's and by doing so they can increase the VVS inventory substantially.

There is no more mig-29 to replace. Su-30 replaced them. They will have to train lot of pilots and increase numbers with the su-75.

Quite right but for a number of Mig-29UB's? With my post above I am implying that they should not replace the Su-30's but rather the Mig-29's and by doing so they will increase the inventory. If they directly replace the Su-30's the inventory will either stay stagnant or decline. Hope that explains my thinking better?

Mir wrote:Quite right but for a number of Mig-29UB's? With my post above I am implying that they should not replace the Su-30's but rather the Mig-29's and by doing so they will increase the inventory. If they directly replace the Su-30's the inventory will either stay stagnant or decline. Hope that explains my thinking better?

Sukhoi's idea with the LTS is to be able not only to replaces older airframes but to increase the VKS numbers at an affordable cost. Russian landmass has an extremely low cover of tactical aircraft that needs to be increased dramatically.

Exactly what I'm trying to say - you've just put it much better than I did!

The Su-30's can serve for a long time to come. The Su-75 is an ideal platform for me to replace the Mig-29's and by doing so they can increase the VVS inventory substantially.

We haven't seen any alternative options from the other design bureaus so it is rather hard to say which is ideal.

Sukhoi's idea with the LTS is to be able not only to replaces older airframes but to increase the VKS numbers at an affordable cost. Russian landmass has an extremely low cover of tactical aircraft that needs to be increased dramatically.

To be fair the concept of the light fighter in any heavy fighter light fighter arrangement is for the light fighter to be cheaper to buy and cheaper to use so it can be purchased in much greater numbers to fill gaps.

The MiG-35 is already in limited production and MiGs equivalent has only been shown in model form but should not be completely ignored.

Yak probably has some VSTOL fighter in the works too.

GarryB wrote:We haven't seen any alternative options from the other design bureaus so it is rather hard to say which is ideal.

I am not the expert, but from experience we see two main types of contracts with MoD:

1) Military needs a certain kit and they open a competition. This is needed in order to guarantee that they are not taken advantage of, given the supplier knows there is a demand that needs to be covered and therefore would have a too strong position, in case there was no competition at the offer level.
2) Military does not have an admitted need for a given type of weapons, but the manufacturer sees the possibility to contribute one idea, that may have more or less potential in the export market too. In that case MoD is (or pretends to be) under no urgency or need and the full burden of moving the negotiation falls on the supplier. Therefore no competition is needed, if the offer is good enough MoD may but, if not then just close the door and that's it.

The LTS seems indeed to be se second type, so no official competition is needed. Either VKS likes it or not.

To be fair the concept of the light fighter in any heavy fighter light fighter arrangement is for the light fighter to be cheaper to buy and cheaper to use so it can be purchased in much greater numbers to fill gaps.

The MiG-35 is already in limited production and MiGs equivalent has only been shown in model form but should not be completely ignored.

Yak probably has some VSTOL fighter in the works too.

MiG was insisting on their MiG-29 based approach and extremely delayed with the -35, so they opened the door to Sukhoi, that simply ran over them with a much better thought and competitive approach. Now it will be difficult for them to match that and VKS should not be held hostage to keep MiG running when they did not perform. Probably they will go to the interceptor branch and leave fighters to Sukhoi, that would be also a honorable solution for the company

LMFS wrote:

MiG was insisting on their MiG-29 based approach and extremely delayed with the -35, so they opened the door to Sukhoi, that simply ran over them with a much better thought and competitive approach. Now it will be difficult for them to match that and VKS should not be held hostage to keep MiG running when they did not perform. Probably they will go to the interceptor branch and leave fighters to Sukhoi, that would be also a honorable solution for the company

I agree. MiG should put all their strength into interceptor. I don't think that MiG-35 will be bought in any serious numbers by RuAF. If they don't order any this year, and by the way it looks they won't, chances for new orders in following years are getting less and less.

caveat emptor wrote:I agree. MiG should put all their strength into interceptor. I don't think that MiG-35 will be bought in any serious numbers by RuAF. If they don't order any this year, and by the way it looks they won't,  chances for new orders in following years are getting less and less.

Do you know if MiG completed the Zhuk-AE yet? Would an AESA radar make the difference for the VKS ordering enough of the MiG-35 or not?

Gomig-21 wrote:

caveat emptor wrote:I agree. MiG should put all their strength into interceptor. I don't think that MiG-35 will be bought in any serious numbers by RuAF. If they don't order any this year, and by the way it looks they won't,  chances for new orders in following years are getting less and less.

Do you know if MiG completed the Zhuk-AE yet?  Would an AESA radar make the difference for the VKS ordering enough of the MiG-35 or not?  

Not likely, they didn't care for an AESA radar with the Su-35. MiG-35 is late to the party and once the Su-75's are ready, I don't see the Russian MoD or any export client choosing the MiG's over the Checkmate.

Broski wrote:Not likely, they didn't care for an AESA radar with the Su-35. MiG-35 is late to the party and once the Su-75's are ready, I don't see the Russian MoD or any export client choosing the MiG's over the Checkmate.

That's too bad. I know Egypt loves their customized MiG-29M/M2s (I mean they are super happy with them) and they even put in a request for the MiG-35 but they insisted on it having the Zhuk-AE and the built-in target designator (instead of the T-220 pod) and they were going to put in a rather large order to up their current 50 or so MiG-29M/M2s with an order of 100 or so. But we haven't heard anything beyond the request.

Do we know what radar is going in the Checkmate?

Gomig-21 wrote:

Broski wrote:Not likely, they didn't care for an AESA radar with the Su-35. MiG-35 is late to the party and once the Su-75's are ready, I don't see the Russian MoD or any export client choosing the MiG's over the Checkmate.

That's too bad.  I know Egypt loves their customized MiG-29M/M2s (I mean they are super happy with them) and they even put in a request for the MiG-35 but they insisted on it having the Zhuk-AE and the built-in target designator (instead of the T-220 pod) and they were going to put in a rather large order to up their current 50 or so MiG-29M/M2s with an order of 100 or so.  But we haven't heard anything beyond the request.

Do we know what radar is going in the Checkmate?

N036. Probably reduced in size thus less T/R modules.

sepheronx wrote:N036. Probably reduced in size thus less T/R modules.

That was the next thing I was going to say; if the NO36 can fit in the Su-57, that radome on that aircraft isn't necessarily that big anyway, so it's likely it would fit in the Checkmate and maybe even in the MiG-35.  If it does, they should stick that bad larry in all the jets, including the newly-built Su-35s.

Gomig-21 wrote:

Do you know if MiG completed the Zhuk-AE yet?  Would an AESA radar make the difference for the VKS ordering enough of the MiG-35 or not?  

No idea. There's very little talk about that plane. I thought that there was a chance RuAF order more, if Indians and Egyptians do, as that would lower the price per unit, especially important in the case of radar. But nothing happened on that front.

Gomig-21 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:N036. Probably reduced in size thus less T/R modules.

That was the next thing I was going to say; if the NO36 can fit in the Su-57, that radome on that aircraft isn't necessarily that big anyway, so it's likely it would fit in the Checkmate and maybe even in the MiG-35.  If it does, they should stick that bad larry in all the jets, including the newly-built Su-35s.

It wont be necessarily N036 but it will be using all the same parts, just smaller.

The LTS seems indeed to be se second type, so no official competition is needed. Either VKS likes it or not.

That is not true... the best example of the second type would have to be the Su-25 to replace the Su-17 and MiG-27 in short range strike support roles in frontal aviation, but even then there was competing designs from other design bureaus.

The myth that the Soviets don't have competition for contracts is just that... a myth... Kalashnikov fought off three or four other rifle designers in the 1970s to win the contract for the AK-74 and in the 1990s the Abakan beat the AK-74M and more recently the AK-12 became the new standard rifle for Russian Army units.

Both MiG and Yak made their own CAS aircraft in competition to the Su-25 and tests were made to work out the winner... it was not just handed to anyone.

The current need is a cheap lighter numbers fighter that can essentially replace the MiG-21 and Su-17 families of light strike and light fighter aircraft for the role of Frontal Aviation swing fighter bomber... an aircraft that can be bought in useful numbers and deployed fairly widely that does not suck all the funding from the Air Force budget... so cheap to buy and cheap to operate.

Previously that was the MiG-29 and currently that is MiG-35 but obviously with issues that need to be sorted out... they have been told all this time that funding was focusing on what has become the Su-57 and that when that is entering service in serial production then funding will be shifted to a light fighter to compliment it, so all this time MiG will have been working on their own 5th gen designs not just to work with the Su-57 on land but also at sea and they will likely have two models a single engined aircraft and twin engined aircraft to choose from.

MiG was insisting on their MiG-29 based approach and extremely delayed with the -35, so they opened the door to Sukhoi, that simply ran over them with a much better thought and competitive approach.

Bullshit... there is no way MiG had the power or influence to demand the light fighter design be frozen while the heavy fighter was perfected and sorted out... that was a decision for the ministry of defence.

Now it will be difficult for them to match that and VKS should not be held hostage to keep MiG running when they did not perform.

The tests have not been run and nothing is flying yet... for all we know MiG might have been working with China on some of their products... some of which do have similarities to recent MiG designs... how far advanced are they really and how much are they revealing?

If they don't want to be held hostage by one design company branch the risk is greatest that that will be Sukhoi... they have the power and control to do so.

Probably they will go to the interceptor branch and leave fighters to Sukhoi, that would be also a honorable solution for the company

Honour has nothing to do with it... and besides if they withdraw in this who is to say Sukhoi wont start looking at interceptor designs next...

The deal was supposed to be delaying funding for the light fighter while the heavy fighter was worked out and Sukhoi screwed them over on that using the funding for Su-57 to make a smaller little brother design to screw MiG with...

Not likely, they didn't care for an AESA radar with the Su-35.

They cared enough to make the radar a hybrid...

A pure AESA will be a lot more expensive... for only a few advantages over the set they use now.

MiG-35 is late to the party and once the Su-75's are ready, I don't see the Russian MoD or any export client choosing the MiG's over the Checkmate.

Which means they have at least 5 years to sort their shit out and prove their worth and show their next step and tell us why it is better than the Su-75.

That's too bad. I know Egypt loves their customized MiG-29M/M2s (I mean they are super happy with them) and they even put in a request for the MiG-35 but they insisted on it having the Zhuk-AE and the built-in target designator (instead of the T-220 pod) and they were going to put in a rather large order to up their current 50 or so MiG-29M/M2s with an order of 100 or so. But we haven't heard anything beyond the request.

MiG gets a lot of shit, mostly by people who don't understand them and recognise why they made them the way they made them, but they make very good aircraft... the Russian military love the MiG-31, and the MiG-21 was popular around the world.

That was the next thing I was going to say; if the NO36 can fit in the Su-57, that radome on that aircraft isn't necessarily that big anyway, so it's likely it would fit in the Checkmate and maybe even in the MiG-35. If it does, they should stick that bad larry in all the jets, including the newly-built Su-35s.

One of the interesting things I am looking forward to is seeing the Checkmate in the air is comparing its size to Flankers and Su-57s... I don't think it is going to be very small at all.

During combat training with the US one comment the US pilots made was how small the MiG-21 looked and how hard it was to keep track of visually...

GarryB wrote:That is not true... the best example of the second type would have to be the Su-25 to replace the Su-17 and MiG-27

WTF!!!

GarryB wrote:
Previously that was the MiG-29 and currently that is MiG-35 but obviously with issues that need to be sorted out... they have been told all this time that funding was focusing on what has become the  Su-57 and that when that is entering service in serial production then funding will be shifted to a light fighter to compliment it, so all this time MiG will have been working on their own 5th gen designs not just to work with the Su-57 on land but also at sea and they will likely have two models a single engined aircraft and twin engined aircraft to choose from.

Do you have any source to corroborate that story or is it entirely your imagination?
It is a shame to see MiG in such shape as it is now, but it is, mostly, by their own doing.
Their last presentation with toy models of their "projects" was nothing but shameful.

Russia is ready to jointly produce the Su-75 with other countries

FSMTC Head Shugaev said that Russia is ready to produce the Su-75 together with other countries.

Russia is ready to produce Checkmate (Su-75) single-engine fighters in cooperation. This was announced on August 16 by Dmitry Shugaev, Director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation of Russia.

"I can confirm that consultations are currently underway with some foreign customers on cooperation within the Checkmate project, "he told RIA Novosti.

Shugaev specified that the parameters of such cooperation include not only the supply of final products, but also technological cooperation.

He noted that the declared characteristics of the fighter are already at the level of existing offers from foreign competitors and even surpass them, but Checkmate will go a certain way before exporting. Shugaev believes that the Su-75 will be in demand in its segment.

Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov at a meeting with Russian President Vladimir PutinPutin said on May 18 that serial production of the Su-75 Checkmate will begin in 2027.

On March 24, it became known that such a fighter model was tested in a wind tunnel. The text of the patent for a light tactical aircraft specified that its design provides it with angles of attack and aerodynamic characteristics that significantly improve cruising, maneuverability and take-off and landing parameters in comparison with other single-engine aircraft.

https://iz.ru/1380448/2022-08-16/v-rossii-gotovy-sovmestno-s-drugimi-stranami-proizvodit-su-75

Any Air Force still flying Mig-21/23/29 and even Su-22's should be potential customers - that in itself is a huge market.
For countries on the US "Evil Axis" list it is a must buy. Maybe Iran was looking for some the other day?

Mir wrote:Any Air Force still flying Mig-21/23/29 and even Su-22's should be potential customers - that in itself is a huge market.
For countries on the US "Evil Axis" list it is a must buy. Maybe Iran was looking for some the other day?

Iran must be indeed salivating at the prospect of getting a 5G plane with the practical capacities of a Su-30 for that kind of money... it is a bargain

GarryB wrote:One of the interesting things I am looking forward to is seeing the Checkmate in the air is comparing its size to Flankers and Su-57s... I don't think it is going to be very small at all.

Thinking the same exact thing. This thing is actually pretty big.

GarryB wrote:During combat training with the US one comment the US pilots made was how small the MiG-21 looked and how hard it was to keep track of visually...

You know my infamous love affair with the MiG-21. Saddened me like heck when I saw this pic of this event. Only info with it was that it was an East German MiG-21 that crashed into an apartment building back in 1975! Crazy to see this classic embedded into the side of a building like that.