Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy

Turkey has been a leery friend of the US and you don't see any new American military buildings in Turkey. What the Americans have there is what existed 50 years ago. Tin shacks.


Nothing hardened. Since Turkey wouldn't let Americans invest...or join the thieving groups to 'fluff' their economy to have more military spending....

Turkey isn't really a military force anyone would worry about. The only reason they are getting brazen against Israel is because they have backers WHO DO have military assets to protect them.

The Saudi's. They are the current shot callers. Only successful country in the middle east to throw out the US military.

GarryB wrote:
Turkey... which suggests the US and EU are not the friends they pretend to be.

True, and as of now Turkey and EU are on a dangerous course about Cyprus. Now i would like to see a Russian ship there, to follow events if nothing else.
And Cyprus would really be a better place for a naval base then Syria... Time for action?

Now would did i say, 4 years is a loong time waiting for new ships..

I think Turkey can lock the Strait of using the army artillery, cannon anti warship combat strait sides, but Russia could easily beat Army, Navy and Air Force Turkey, in other words, Russia will crush the Turkish army, for anti-ship mines and torpedo, Russia will use minesweepers and torpedo VA-111 (If Turkey timely deployment). Currently the Black Sea Fleet added 12 Su-30SM, Russia can mobilize military forces going to the south many times to support Black Sea fleet, in case of conflict with Turkey: A-50/IL-76 AWACS, MiG-29S/SMT, Su-24M/M2, Su-25BM/SM, Su-27SM/SM2, Su-30SM, Su-32 (can ASW), Su-35S, Tu-142M3, Tu-160, Tu-22M2/3, Ka-27, Ka-52K...... Even they will use as Kh-55/101 cruise missiles with a range> 1000km.

In Fact Turkey does not have the right to block any vessels of the Black Sea countries. Under international law, including the Straits Dardanelles and Bosphorus Straits belong to international waters or navigation.

With version >2000 km range the Iskander-K, comfort Russia may resort in Sochi and attacks on Ankara (The Black Sea's greatest length (east-west) is about 710 miles (1,140 km) and its greatest width about 390 miles (630 km), the system only effective defense of Turkey's HQ-9 (not currently receive) and PAC-2/3 (PAC generally less effective when not combined with THAAD, Aegis, fault  within repeat)





http://www.avrupagazete.com/gundemdekiler/16361-rus-savas-gemileri-canakkale-bogazi-nda.html

Turkey Air Force with backbone depends on F-4 and F-16C is absolutely no chance against Russia Air Force  

But I do not think that the Turkish government is crazy :Dand here is the script for ww3









Range Sochi - Ankara 700,92km

Is an old thread still is interesting..
The Main question is badly done .. your comparing the whole of  the Turkey Navy vs the 'Black fleet navy'.
The black fleet navy is something that change ,is not set in stone. If Russia knows they will have to destroy the Turkey navy
They most likely will change the black fleet configuration in order to more easily Knock Down the Turkey navy.

According to wiki Turkey have 16 frigates ,7 corvetes , 27 missile boats , and 14 submarines.. which is a not bad at all NAvy force.
Problem however with Turkey is that is close to Russia.. and they can easily fire or their stockpiles of P-700s or their latest Antiship missiles Oniks or Kalibr wiht 700km -800km range. Firing them safetiness of Land. and no single combat jet of Turkey will have a chance to get close enough of Russia. it will be very easy for Russia to knockdown Turkey navy and from safe distance and just using their Airforce. Turkey frigates defenses range is just 170km ,they use NATO weapons and have nothing in their navy to stop Supersonic missiles ,that fly very low ,very fast and from 700km away.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a5LkaU0wj714&refer=home

Most likely they will need to use their airforce to help their navy. Which also will be destroyed easily by Russian airforce with superior beyond visual range capabilities . the following report explain why..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNRMO70Hw0s


But if it was a duel.. of ONLY mediterranean navy vs Turkey navy.. without any other help.. and  Russia had the same force they have now deployed near Syria about 15 warships.. then still Russia could win ,thanks to is longer range weapons but probably not without loses. from Turkey submarines and missile boats. People need to remember that warships are not any better than its weapons. You could have the best super warship in the world but if its weapons sucks ,the warship will not handle even a fishing boat with a yakhont missile fired at them.

NAvy vs navy it will be subsonic Harpoons with 120km range vs super sonic P-700s ,Oniks and Kalibers wiht 700km range.
If the war is 100% conventional and in the black sea.. not even US and ALL NATO navies will have a chance. Russia can use their Huge airforce from land and easily crush NATO navies without risking any warship,just launching anti-ship missiles from combat jets like there is no tomorrow and from safe distance. it will an epic battle however.. worth of watching in holywood.

If the war is in Syria..and Russia needs to defend them , in a conventional war ,its much more complicated and RUssia will be in major disadvantage ,since will have Turkey behind their lines and Israel in the front line.. and NATO navies  in the mediterranean. Totally encircle which is not really good. Without the help of IRAN and IRAQ ,they will be at serious disadvantage in a conventional war.

If the War is in IRAN.. it will be much more easy for Russia to defend IRAN.. since they will be in the last line of combat , IRAN takes the hits and Russia just keep supplying them with weapons and supplying logistics. Similar to another Korea war.. where China pushed Nato out of North Korea without much problem.

If Russia get the support of China huge navy, things change ,Since China Navy already is very close in size to the US navy.
47 frigates ,25 destroyers , and 68 submarines.. those can make a big difference in any major war that Russia needs help.

you can compare top 10 armed forces in this site.. very general Not scientific but still interesting. .

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=China

The Russians haven’t bothered to develop a tube-launched version of the Kh-35/3M-25.

Turkey has the technological advantage . The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.

While heavyweight torpedoes have 40km/48km-range, a tube-launched ASCM like SM-39 or RGM-84A Harpoon can be used for attacking targets up to the horizon.

The SM 39 & RGM 84 is far more superior to the Novator 3M-54E Klub-S supersonic ASCM .

NickM wrote:The SM 39 & RGM 84 is far more superior to the Novator 3M-54E Klub-S supersonic ASCM .

Not only are you comparing a couple of 70s subsonic anti-ship missiles to the late 80s/early 90s Klub series; but you even had the gall to explicitly admit that it's supersonic.

You've set up your own rise and fall, right in the same sentence.

You know, I think you're deliberately trolling here

Lol, that was bad Nick. Even by your standards.

GarryB wrote:

The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.

Even their tiniest Corvette will have a 30mm gatling gun answer to a subsonic Harpoon or Exocet. If Turkey could procure B-2s in sufficient number... say 1,000 of them then the Russian military will not have enough AAMs to shoot them all down and therefore some will make it to Moscow!

Every Black Sea Fleet ship in the Russian Navy carries a better anti ship missile than the Exocet or Harpoon.

Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.

dionis wrote:

GarryB wrote:

The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.

Even their tiniest Corvette will have a 30mm gatling gun answer to a subsonic Harpoon or Exocet. If Turkey could procure B-2s in sufficient number... say 1,000 of them then the Russian military will not have enough AAMs to shoot them all down and therefore some will make it to Moscow!

Every Black Sea Fleet ship in the Russian Navy carries a better anti ship missile than the Exocet or Harpoon.

Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.

Uran has 260km range, does Harpoon?

The BSF also has small rocket ships with Moskit.

Metel is no worse tactically than Exocet, and obviously is dual role.

dionis wrote:

GarryB wrote:

The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.

Even their tiniest Corvette will have a 30mm gatling gun answer to a subsonic Harpoon or Exocet. If Turkey could procure B-2s in sufficient number... say 1,000 of them then the Russian military will not have enough AAMs to shoot them all down and therefore some will make it to Moscow!

Every Black Sea Fleet ship in the Russian Navy carries a better anti ship missile than the Exocet or Harpoon.

Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.

And all the Tu-22M3s equipped with Kh-22 that impact at near hypersonic speeds and will have the range to target any ship in the Black Sea even if launched from the airspace over Krasnodar?
The Kh-15 will pose a similar problem for the Turkish fleet albeit the Tu-22M3s will have to get in within 300km range of a ship before launching.

Decrease the range further and you'll find such weapons as the Kh-31, possibly even Kh-29 being employed against Turkish ships by tactical aviation such as Su-34s, Su-27s and MiG-29s

And of course some of these models can be armed with nuclear warheads instead of conventional payloads.

Not a good time to be a Turk on the Black Sea.

Kh-15 is gone gone gone.

TR1 wrote:Kh-15 is gone gone gone.

Really? What lead to its demise?

flamming_python wrote:

TR1 wrote:Kh-15 is gone gone gone.

Really? What lead to its demise?

Missiles got old, and it was nuke only. They only made sub 300 of them in any case, and prolonging the missile life was not seen as worthwhile.

TR1 wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

TR1 wrote:Kh-15 is gone gone gone.

Really? What lead to its demise?

Missiles got old, and it was nuke only. They only made sub 300 of them in any case, and prolonging the missile life was not seen as worthwhile.

so it's meet the same fate as the AGM-131 SRAM.  

TR1 wrote:

dionis wrote:

GarryB wrote:

The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.

Even their tiniest Corvette will have a 30mm gatling gun answer to a subsonic Harpoon or Exocet. If Turkey could procure B-2s in sufficient number... say 1,000 of them then the Russian military will not have enough AAMs to shoot them all down and therefore some will make it to Moscow!

Every Black Sea Fleet ship in the Russian Navy carries a better anti ship missile than the Exocet or Harpoon.

Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.

Uran has 260km range, does Harpoon?

The BSF also has small rocket ships with Moskit.

Metel is no worse tactically than Exocet, and obviously is dual role.

260km range for the Uran is for some new version no doubt - any evidence these are deployed in the BSF? Can the ships even use them to their max range?

And yes, Harpoon does have a quoted 278km range in the RGM-84F version. I suppose the question is, are these deployed in the Turkish fleet?

Not some exotic new version- just the Russian produced one with the newer (post-Soviet) Russian engine. The old ones had Ukrainian engines, and will or already have run out of service life.

TR1 wrote:Not some exotic new version- just the Russian produced one with the newer (post-Soviet) Russian engine. The old ones had Ukrainian engines, and will or already have run out of service life.

The Kh-35U? That's a new development as far as I know.

And TMC still shows the 130KM version on their website.

Russia did a major strategic overhaul of its tactical missile engines, to prevent outside sources (Ukraine) from becoming an issue.
Any new missiles it buys, made by the Tactical Missile Corps use Russian engines, and hence would have improved range.

Range of course matters on launch platform, I haven't seen specifics as to Harpoon or Kh-35 range when launched from land vs say air.
But it is very unlikely they get 200 + KM when launched from ships.

Kh-35 is a newer design though, would not surprise me that it outranges Harpoon if we compare similar (vintage wise) versions.
Kh-35 used turbofan from the start, unlike Haproons solid fuel engine + turbojet.

GarryB wrote:

And TMC still shows the 130KM version on their website.

Export model?

It's all export models there.

MTCR does not apply to the Kh-35.

Kh-35E = 130KM

Kh-35UE = 260KM

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that there's any of the 260KM versions in service with the BSF.

The BSF has received coastal BAL complexes recently, and they are with the Russian engines Kh-35.

Chances are we won't get any "evidence" any time soon, but given how many times the BSF fires its Urans, you can bet within a few years any older stock missiles be expended.

TR1 wrote:The BSF has received coastal BAL complexes recently, and they are with the Russian engines Kh-35.

Chances are we won't get any "evidence" any time soon, but given how many times the BSF fires its Urans, you can bet within a few years any older stock missiles be expended.

Which ships even carry Uran? I'm counting more of the Metel than anything, not counting the Tarantul boats.