India Arms Market Competition

gaurav wrote:Indian goveernement is getting tensed as their is no airfdefence mechanism except for SU-30 which capabilities are still low as compared to other Air forces in Asian region.

Gaurav , let me correct a few of these misgivings . The SU 30 MKI is by far the most capable and the most advanced 4++ fighter deployed anywhere in the world , not just in Asia . Now while British and US Air Force officers will probably be fired for accepting this , they have more than once accepted this in private . The former chief of the Royal Air Force infact went to great lengths to take a flight in the SU 30MKI .

gaurav wrote:they know that they only have Israeli Air defence(Barak and Spyder) which can only be considered

dummy or decoys nothing much in a true air warfare scenario.

No .The Barak-2 missiles are to equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class and Barak 8 is still under development . We do NOT have a three tire air defense system in place yet . Except maybe for V SHORADs which we have in plenty ( though a good percentage needs to be upgraded) . Prithvi BMD can be deployed in Delhi & Mumbai (according to DRDO) at short notice.

Akash MK1 is already operational and MK2 is currently being tested. DRDO is increasing the range of Akash by using a better composite booster with lengthened booster section

gaurav wrote:Mirage-2000 Indian air Force is a dummy resource ,it does not have air defence,it has to be escorted by Mig-21 ..

Not true dear . Mirage 2000/5 are escorted by Mig 29s not Mig 21s . That's what interceptors like Mig 29 are for . Just like the US uses the F 15 or F 22 to escort their F 16s and F 18s .

gaurav wrote:The Indian Air Force (IAF) troupe had to wind up their air defence exercise at a test facility

here as three trials of the five attempts made to engage aerial targets by a Russian surface-to-air
missile
(SAM) failed recently. The exercise was conducted at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur with

logistical support from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Wasn't his waiting to happen . The ex Army Chief had already stated that 97% of India's Air Defense has become obsolete and needs immediate upgradation . Instead of fixing the problem , GOI decided to malign the Army chief and forced him to resign .

Wee bit off topic here, but

The SU 30 MKI is by far the most capable and the most advanced 4++ fighter deployed anywhere in the world

Thats a bold claim dont you think? I mean, shouldnt that honor go to the Su-35?

ali.a.r wrote:

The SU 30 MKI is by far the most capable and the most advanced 4++ fighter deployed anywhere in the world

Thats a bold claim dont you think? I mean, shouldnt that honor go to the Su-35?

Yes, the SU 35 is indeed a great aircraft , but the current SU 30 MKI MK3 that's in operation with the IAF are encompassing most of the salient features of the SU 35 with every upgrade. The Russian Air Force too operates the SU 30 SM , which is the Russian version of the SU 30 MKI (inspite of having the SU 35).

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20120323/172357523.html

Take into account the deployment . Around 15 SU 35 are operational with the Russian Air Force compare to the over 150 with the IAF .

Then there is the obvious benefit of a tandem seat aircraft over a single seat aircraft . Also , once the SUper Sukhoi starts entering the IAF it would be fair to say that minus a few areas like engine power and overall weight the Super Sukhoi is at par with the SU 35 .

There is a lot of talk about the US taking over Russian sales to India... when in actual fact it seems more like US sales are at the expense of traditionally European sales to India.

India can and does buy from whomever they want... they get a bit niggly when Russia sells to China, but seem to ignore when the US sells to Pakistan.

Talk about delays with carriers when their own from scratch carrier is also delayed through no fault of Russia, or indeed cost over runs when they are getting a fixed wing carrier for 2.4 billion while Mistral class helicopter carriers are costing Russia over 1 billion each without the air component.

Just to put things in perspective . Not trying to score brownie points .

Apart from PAK FA the following are the projects between Russia and India :

(1 ) SSBN's - S 2 ; S 3 ; S 4

(2) IL-214 MRTA

(3) BRAHMOS 2

(4) Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) 1

I am not even including the next tranche of Frigates , SU 30MKI , T 90s or the assembly lines set up in India for MI , Ka helos and Smerch Rocket Launchers .

I don't want to sound patronizing but I need to know the name of any other country with which the scope and ambit of Russia's defense co-operation is greater than that of India .

India purchasing weapons from the West is nothing new . Since gaining Independence in 1947 India has generously purchased from the West and this in no way hampered it's purchases from USSR/Russia .

Just to put things in perspective . Not trying to score brownie points .

What I meant about my comment about Russia selling to China is not popular with India but US or western sales to Pakistan or China don't have the same effect is that there is clearly a special relationship between Russia and India and both countries know it.

Russia will not sell something to China that they think might put India at a serious disadvantage... but at the end of the day they do make their money selling weapons so there will be discomfort.

To be honest I think Russia selling Su-35s to China would have less impact on India than US sales of AMRAAM to Pakistan.

GarryB wrote:What I meant about my comment about Russia selling to China

GarryB . As ever , appreciate your comments .

However , I was just reflecting on the issue of "India switching sides" that was raised earlier in this thread by another forum member & not on your answer to that same question .

The point that I was making was that the quantum & quality of defense trade between India & Russia remains the same for the last 40 years and that during this same period India has made purchases from the West , which in no way comes in between Russia India trade.

Sujoy wrote:Just to put things in perspective . Not trying to score brownie points .

Apart from PAK FA the following are the projects between Russia and India :

(1 ) SSBN's - S 2 ; S 3 ; S 4  

(2) IL-214 MRTA

(3) BRAHMOS 2

(4) Indian Aircraft Carrier (IAC) 1

I am not even including the next tranche of Frigates , SU 30MKI , T 90s or the assembly lines set up in India for MI , Ka helos and Smerch Rocket Launchers .

I don't want to sound patronizing but I need to know the name of any other country with which the scope and ambit of Russia's defense co-operation is greater than that of India .

India purchasing weapons from the West is nothing new . Since gaining Independence in 1947 India has generously purchased from the West and this in no way hampered it's purchases from USSR/Russia .

Nice summing up. Most of the people that like to discuss this particular subject are not even aware of the huge projects running up between Russia and India. 

My vote four you man.

Viktor wrote:Nice summing up. Most of the people that like to discuss this particular subject are not even aware of the huge projects running up between Russia and India. 

Thanx Viktor . I suspect it's human nature to focus more on Style than Substance .

Now replace India with Iran or China or Venezuela (or any of these states that have been labelled as international bad boys)all of a sudden these deals would have grabbed eye balls across the world.

Off the shelf purchases are used as benchmarks of commercial success and therefore JVs take a backseat .

We are neither leaving Russia nor French, both are our good friends, how ever Soviet Union once supplied us monkey models of their weapon.

Any way we need to be self-dependent.

SSDD wrote:We are neither leaving Russia nor French, both are our good friends, how ever Soviet Union once supplied us monkey models of their weapon.

you get what you pay for really, pay them hard cash and theyll treat you well.

                   i  guess  it  is  demand  of  time...  Russia  has  many  enemy Lets  India  to  collect  more  friends  ,Indirectly  Russia  will  get benifit,  russia  and russian  are  very  similar  to indian  people  and india    but  chinese  are  not comparable  to  india and indian ,  Chinese  are  from starting  greedy  and fearing  community. I  said  so  because  those  country fear  to  loose  something  he  will  like to fight and  try to  secure.  Other way  Russian  and Indian  are  so humble country  they  keep faith  on each other,,,But  for  best  Future  Russia  should  start other  way  business  with India..Like  USA is  doing...we  support  USA  ...because  we  donot  want  another  fight...we  have  many  big dreams,,,,thats why  we obey  USA monopoly, but for  few years...more, India  has  one  strict rule,  it  never tolerate lie,  untruth , and violence,first  attacking  any other country,terrorisim ,  It  has dream  to  live  peacefully , even  maldivies like  country,bhutan , nepal , srilanka ,bangladesh these  are  compare  to india  so  tiny...India give  them same  oportunity and same  rights  also and  many kinds  safety  provides.But  Russia  must  understand  India  strategy  and leadership ( true  Leader  is  he  who  always  takes  care  of every one),Always  big  Leaders  gives  same  respect  to  small  country and big country equally. Russia  afraid  taking  relationship  with  USA(  everyone  knows  what  USA  is...,,  no  need  to describe  ,  every country  hates  it -----  It  is  such  country  which  fears  everyone )  and  same  time  Russia  thinks  It  is  not  Democratic .....most  funny  thing  (Communist  or Democratic  no  difference  ...when  Ruler should  kind  for people )Russian  Govt  is  Truely  Democratic  because  it  cares  every  russian... so nothing to  worry  thinking  matter on democratic and  communist.China  and chinese  are  half Philosopher .(So  they  are  no body's  not  even for own  country...if  necessary-- they  will  kill  every chinese  people ).So My suggestion  not only  Defence in other sector  Russia  and India  get together....  you  can  feel  automatically(left hand  right hand )   ( because  left hand  right hand never  fight,,,  they  help each other  because  both  point  to  same  heart )

Russia  should  protect  India.  and  Through India  Russia  will  get  benifit from west      

We will never abandon our best friend and protector since decades.     Indian and Russia are like brothers, and will always remain so. Even though, now there is a vocal minority in India who spreads the so called Western propoganda of Russian war items as junks and Western items as gold, lol.

But, we are smart, we know Russia's worth. It is just that, the Indo- Russian is now evolving towards a different level. I think joint-ventures are the way to go, and both countries are exactly doing that.


So, no worries at all, even thogh US has now become India's largest arms exporter. But Indo-Rus. relationship has now even evolved further  


  

That's Janes being inaccurate. Russia sold far more to India last year than the US did.

India however did become the biggest destination for US arms, in 2013. Big difference between the two.

When US medium transport planes cost half a billion each of course in monetary terms they will be the top exporter.

Of course most of the time it is US taxpayers money that is loaned to the country in question and they use that loan money to buy over priced US weapons... or the old weapons they want to get rid of.

TR1 wrote:That's Janes being inaccurate. Russia sold far more to India last year than the US did.

India however did become the biggest destination for US arms, in 2013. Big difference between the two.

Oh, thanks for correction. Even I was surprised with the news. Anyway, India and Russia should collaborate more and more.


What if Mig joins our AMCA programme?

A very nice article from IDRW

Though it is not Indo-Russian relationship centric, yet it has few important paragraphs which tell us about the bond of trust:

A common uninformed allegation is that decades of defence ties with the Soviet Union have not helped “kick-start” our defence industry and that they have the character of a “patron-client” relationship. The contributions of such ties in building our defence industry have been so wide ranging and deep that they need a separate article to deal with them. Here, however, are some major examples: laying the foundation for the industrial capabilities and capacity for in-depth manufacture of fighter aircraft with the MiG-21 models FL, M and Bis from as far back as 1964 and the MiG-27 fighter-bomber from 1974. Taken together, these projects did, indeed, kick-start our defence aircraft industry by: (i) training a huge number of specialist engineers, technicians and skilled workers; (ii) building a large vendor population; and (iii) supplying highly specialised equipment and facilities to HAL to manufacture, test and prove the aircraft. The Soviet ties built our domestic technological and industrial capabilities so wel
l that our own engineers and technicians were able to upgrade the MiG-27 without any Russian assistance.

Further, the experience and expertise developed as a result of these defence ties played a major role in enabling HAL, DRDO, IAF and the Aeronautical Development Agency to D&D, engineer, flight test, and manufacture the Tejas LCA.

The ties also contributed to numerous other major weapon systems, such as the stealth frigates of the Navy and two generations of main battle tanks for the Army – the T-72 of the 1970s and the T-90 of the early 2000s.

Then there is the major case of the nuclear weapon-tipped ballistic missile firing nuclear submarine,Arihant, and the futuristic Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft now in progress. These are weapon systems no other country was, or is, willing to even discuss with us, let alone undertaking joint technology development as the Russians have.

The Russians have also provided us enormous technical assistance to overcome our design and engineering problems in successfully launching and targeting the critically important 3,500 km Agni-3 intermediate range, nuclear-tipped, strategic ballistic missile developed by DRDO. These few examples put paid to the allegation that Indo-Soviet/Russian defence ties were, and even now are, those of a “patron” vis-à-vis a “client”. Would a “patron” help a so-called “client” overcome problems in a strategic missile developed by the “client”? Would the US be willing to even consider providing us such help?

What if Mig joins our AMCA programme?

Would love to see a joint light 5th gen fighter programme between MiG and HAL, but I suspect both have designs that are likely not compatible and have evolved too far for their side to drop and start from scratch.

GarryB wrote:

What if Mig joins our AMCA programme?

Would love to see a joint light 5th gen fighter programme between MiG and HAL, but I suspect both have designs that are likely not compatible and have evolved too far for their side to drop and start from scratch.

Don't know about Mig, but our programme is still in its infancy. I think this way or that way, we would once again need the Russian help to complete this project.

On the hindsight, we have made cryogenic engines of our own, emarked on a moon mission, but still can't design and develop a proper jet engine of our own. Kaveri was a huge disappointment for us. Result is that our Tejas is still underpowered:(

Good modern engines are the hardest technology to master in a modern fighter.

China can't make RD93s either and they are just RD-33s with the gearbox moved...

The thing with aircraft however is that over their life cycles they tend to gain weight so more powerful engines added later on can revive an otherwise rather average aircraft and make it much more capable... The F-14D is probably the best example of this with the new engines much more reliable and powerful enabling the aircraft to take off without AB. (ie the new engines had the same power in dry thrust as the old ones had in full afterburner.)

It will take time and money to develop your own powerful and efficient engines, but when you do your aircraft will be transformed....   

GarryB wrote:Good modern engines are the hardest technology to master in a modern fighter.

China can't make RD93s either and they are just RD-33s with the gearbox moved...

The thing with aircraft however is that over their life cycles they tend to gain weight so more powerful engines added later on can revive an otherwise rather average aircraft and make it much more capable... The F-14D is probably the best example of this with the new engines much more reliable and powerful enabling the aircraft to take off without AB. (ie the new engines had the same power in dry thrust as the old ones had in full afterburner.)

It will take time and money to develop your own powerful and efficient engines, but when you do your aircraft will be transformed....   

On that note, hope India-Russia develop the Type-30 engine in time. The PAK-FA/FGFA project won't be complete in the real sense without this engine.

On that note, hope India-Russia develop the Type-30 engine in time. The PAK-FA/FGFA project won't be complete in the real sense without this engine.

Wont be its last engine replacement...

GarryB wrote:Wont be its last engine replacement...

So it means they have plans for even more powerful engine in future?

Of course.

New engines and upgrades for engines that have not even entered service yet...

WE HAVE NO OTHER FRIEND CLOSER THAN INDIA

This is 2 years old interview, but still very relevant to this thread:

Russia’s Ambassador to India, Alexander Kadakin, talks to RIR about bilateral relations, dwells on Russia’s support to India’s global power aspirations and on mutual efforts to scale up bilateral trade.

Russia has suffered many setbacks in military and technical cooperation. In particular, India chose Boeing in a helicopter tender. Are you concerned that India is increasingly opting for American and other technology?

First of all, our military and technical cooperation with India, which accounts for 30% of Russia’s total arms exports, is unique. We have been working together for 50 years. India is the only country with which Russia has a long-time programme for military and technical cooperation, and it has recently been extended to 2020. In monetary terms, the amount of contracts signed as part of the previous ten-year programme has reached $30 billion. We expect to supply more than $7 billion of weapons and military equipment to India this year. Furthermore, we not only sell “hardware”, but also technology that no other country is prepared to provide to India at present. Many have promised, but then backpedal once it comes to real action.

It is clear that with New Delhi’s new course towards diversification of arms suppliers, competition in the Indian market has been rising. Russia is ready for this. We have done a good deal of groundwork in a number of areas, all of which we can offer to our partners. In particular, we are planning to expand our participation in air defence with the Igla-S portable SAM, the Tor-M2E SAM, the Pantsir-S SAM and anti-aircraft artillery system, and other Russian-developed weapons. We are also planning to take part in a tender for the supply of six diesel-electric submarines with the Amur-1650.

At the present time, some new trends are gaining momentum: the emphasis on bilateral military and technical cooperation has been steadily shifting towards transferring licences for manufacturing Russian armaments in India, conducting research and development locally and setting up joint ventures. A number of very important projects are underway in this sphere, including the development of a fifth-generation jet fighter and a multi-purpose cargo plane; the production of the world’s best BrahMos super-sonic cruise missiles, T-90S tanks and Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets. Military engineers and designers from both countries are conducting joint research and development projects in more than 40 areas.

Bilateral military and technical cooperation will no doubt be discussed at the Russo-Indian summit. A number of important military contracts are expected to be signed.

Russia has been entertaining the idea of “returning” to Asia in recent years. Does the Russian leadership have a clear understanding of where India stands among Russia’s foreign policy priorities? What is the plan for India in the context of Russia’s developing relations with China, Pakistan and Asia-Pacific countries?

Building up multi-faceted cooperation with India has always been and remains a key priority in Russia’s foreign policy. We have no other friend closer than India. This is especially important in this particular period in time, when the centre of global economic growth is rapidly shifting to the Asia-Pacific region. India’s emergence as a nascent global power and a regional power broker with its own foreign policy is becoming increasingly apparent.

link:here

These are not mere words, but that's how things are, IMO(from both sides/people's perspective). So, we are not going to abandon Russia at any cost.

Trust me, majority of Indians, we still hate America and CIA. And the way they have treated Indian Embassy employ, things have become more negative than it always was for US.

The reason we bought Apache etc, was just that the current prime-minister is pro-US, and hates communists. And our airforce always wanted Rafale right from the earlier decade, especially after M2K's stellar performance in the Kargil War. But anyway, things look good for future. Russia need not to worry.

Infact in future, if needs arrive, this modern India will fight alongside Russia tactically and strategically in an open manner. We realise the importance of a powerful Russia for us, and vice-versa.