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Kamov Reveals Involvement in China’s Z-10 Attack Helicopter
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collegeboy16
Werewolf
Viktor
NationalRus
Zivo
nemrod
ricky123
Sujoy
12 posters
CAIC Z-10 Attack Helicopter
TR1- Posts : 5435
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GarryB- Posts : 39149
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OK, now I am more interested in the design... 
And good on you Kamov... I thought you had enough on your plate perfecting the Ka-52, improving the Ka-50 and also the Ka-226T as well as advanced high speed models and you go and build a helo for China.
Hang on... it isn't April the first already is it?
And good on you Kamov... I thought you had enough on your plate perfecting the Ka-52, improving the Ka-50 and also the Ka-226T as well as advanced high speed models and you go and build a helo for China.
Hang on... it isn't April the first already is it?
Viktor- Posts : 5796
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This, made my day
God knows how many of such sort made it to the China army.
God knows how many of such sort made it to the China army.
Sujoy- Posts : 2313
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This is a patented Chinese practice.
Come up with a design that is an exact replica of the original product , price it way below the price of the original and in the process put the original manufacturer out of business .
This practice is not just confined to the Aerospace & Defense sector in China but is also followed in the Automobiles and Consumer Durables sector as well.
There is a high probability now that Kamov will loose market in a number of countries in Asia & Latin America as China will be able to sell cheap "Kamov look alikes" to them.
To further their cause the Chinese military has set up a cyber facility on the outskirts of Shanghai which has been entrusted with the job of hacking onto the servers of foreign Govts & businesses and stealing their design ideas .
Come up with a design that is an exact replica of the original product , price it way below the price of the original and in the process put the original manufacturer out of business .
This practice is not just confined to the Aerospace & Defense sector in China but is also followed in the Automobiles and Consumer Durables sector as well.
There is a high probability now that Kamov will loose market in a number of countries in Asia & Latin America as China will be able to sell cheap "Kamov look alikes" to them.
To further their cause the Chinese military has set up a cyber facility on the outskirts of Shanghai which has been entrusted with the job of hacking onto the servers of foreign Govts & businesses and stealing their design ideas .
ricky123- Posts : 221
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Sujoy wrote:This is a patented Chinese practice.
Come up with a design that is an exact replica of the original product , price it way below the price of the original and in the process put the original manufacturer out of business .
This practice is not just confined to the Aerospace & Defense sector in China but is also followed in the Automobiles and Consumer Durables sector as well.
There is a high probability now that Kamov will loose market in a number of countries in Asia & Latin America as China will be able to sell cheap "Kamov look alikes" to them.
To further their cause the Chinese military has set up a cyber facility on the outskirts of Shanghai which has been entrusted with the job of hacking onto the servers of foreign Govts & businesses and stealing their design ideas .
are u saying chinese stole this tech .... cuz the article says russia provided it to the chinese ...if true it is very sad
Sujoy- Posts : 2313
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ricky123 wrote:are u saying chinese stole this tech .... cuz the article says russia provided it to the chinese ...if true it is very sad
No ricky ... am not saying that China stole from Russia . They have stolen in the past but not in this case.
The point I was making is that Kamov is going to be the net looser as China will sell their helos in markets from where Kamov could have got a lot of business .
Werewolf- Posts : 5920
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i read an article a year ago on sinodefence forum about the Z-10 was a kamov design but i was very suspicious because the author made comperisions from Ka-60 and Ka-50 to the stubbed wing design,tail boom,fuselage and tail rotor that hadn't convinced anyone but a few similiarities where seen on few details but still was curious, but yes that the concept is made and provided by kamov it should be much better than i even hoped.
If they have not only provided the airframe but also FCS and like it is believed an active air-to-air mode for every weapon even the AM-23 (Type-23-1) what is also "believed" than that would be very interesting capability which most even don't have.
Would appreciate more informations on this
EDIT:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/heli-expo-chinese-wz-10-attack-helicopter-based-on-kamov-design-383147/
If they have not only provided the airframe but also FCS and like it is believed an active air-to-air mode for every weapon even the AM-23 (Type-23-1) what is also "believed" than that would be very interesting capability which most even don't have.
Would appreciate more informations on this
EDIT:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/heli-expo-chinese-wz-10-attack-helicopter-based-on-kamov-design-383147/
Mikheev said:
The Project 941 design was not based on any Soviet-era attack helicopter project and was strictly designed for China's unique requirements, Mikheev says. "They gave us the desired weight, we discussed preliminary performance parameters, then we signed a contract and we fulfilled the contract," he says.
After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.
Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.
"So I wish success to the helicopter," Mikheev says.
Mikheev would not comment on the WZ-10's performance. "That is a question for the Chinese," he says. "I know what I have done."
TR1- Posts : 5435
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China hasn't sold anything to anyone that Kamov might have, so I don't see any loss here, or in the near future.
In the long term, they would have developed their own designs anyways.
A lot of Russian companies made money off China during 90s, that allowed them to live.
In the long term, they would have developed their own designs anyways.
A lot of Russian companies made money off China during 90s, that allowed them to live.
nemrod- Posts : 839
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http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-built-chinese-z10-helicopter-2013-3
Zivo- Posts : 1487
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Interesting.
That was published in March, I must have missed it. Well, congrats to Kamov. I kind of like the WZ-10, it is nice to see my favorite rotary-wing aircraft manufacturer designed it.
That was published in March, I must have missed it. Well, congrats to Kamov. I kind of like the WZ-10, it is nice to see my favorite rotary-wing aircraft manufacturer designed it.
NationalRus- Posts : 610
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its not like we designed the whole thing, basicaly just the blueprints
Viktor- Posts : 5796
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Old stuff that was discussed here.
Werewolf- Posts : 5920
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A WZ-10 helicopter dropped down to the farmland in Weinan city of Shaanxi province around 2 p.m. in the afternoon of March 4th. According to the witnesses, the tail of the helicopter suddenly lost control with a loud bang and fell into the farmland. The police have arrived at the accident scene. The injured have been sent to hospital. The cause of the accident is still under investigation. wrote:
http://en.gmw.cn/2014-03/04/content_10573605.htm
http://english.sina.com/china/2014/0304/680097.html
PS: here you can see a very short video of the crashed WZ-10.
collegeboy16- Posts : 1135
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<sarcasm> I guess it inherited a lot from its russky designers</sarcasm>
GarryB- Posts : 39149
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Or it could have been the US stealth elements they stole...
Werewolf- Posts : 5920
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Not really funny.
More pictures.
More pictures.
GarryB- Posts : 39149
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There are often crashes during testing... that is why only professional test pilots fly them.
Better to thoroughly test them during the test phase than to put them in service and find a design fault because by then it is expensive to stop production and take all the already produced models out of service and fix them and then change the production to add the changes.
Better to thoroughly test them during the test phase than to put them in service and find a design fault because by then it is expensive to stop production and take all the already produced models out of service and fix them and then change the production to add the changes.
Werewolf- Posts : 5920
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GarryB wrote:There are often crashes during testing... that is why only professional test pilots fly them.
Better to thoroughly test them during the test phase than to put them in service and find a design fault because by then it is expensive to stop production and take all the already produced models out of service and fix them and then change the production to add the changes.
I assume you are not addressing that to me but speaking to the general community. I am aware of that and i opened it before any other could to make stupid sinophobic remarks like some like based on some peoples nicknaMes, no pun intented.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Mi-28 and Ka-52 have crashed as well.
It was only a matter of time with WZ-10.
Looks like low lvl fall.
It was only a matter of time with WZ-10.
Looks like low lvl fall.
Werewolf- Posts : 5920
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TR1 wrote:Mi-28 and Ka-52 have crashed as well.
It was only a matter of time with WZ-10.
Looks like low lvl fall.
There was not a single Helicopter and Attack Helicopter that never crashed during prototype phase and after that, too.
And yes either it was rather low altitude crash or pilot performed autorotation and reduced the speed in last seconds.
Werewolf- Posts : 5920
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I wanted to post some informations that the AirForce Monthly put out.
I list some of the points the article claims
- It says it has bulletproof front glass about 38mm thick capable of withstanding 12.7mm rounds
- Type-95KT composite rotor blades and X-tail rotor capable of withstanding at least 12.7mm
- Composite fuselage which is mainly aluminium alloy, RAM painted (Nothing of which would be new)
- Fishy claims of WZ-9 being copy of TV3-117 despite different configuration
- Pakistan could buy WZ-10 as first costumer which are considering T-129 or WZ-10 currently
- Author claims the current WZ-10 do not have modern FLIRs (TADS/PVNS) like seen on early prototype models (I say BS)
- According to this article China searches for testing it in peacekeeping missions somewhere in Africa.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5614/15356876158_849a0447b3_o.jpg
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15543861422_0c204529b4_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3950/15356396399_48b15f0696_o.jpg
I list some of the points the article claims
- It says it has bulletproof front glass about 38mm thick capable of withstanding 12.7mm rounds
- Type-95KT composite rotor blades and X-tail rotor capable of withstanding at least 12.7mm
- Composite fuselage which is mainly aluminium alloy, RAM painted (Nothing of which would be new)
- Fishy claims of WZ-9 being copy of TV3-117 despite different configuration
- Pakistan could buy WZ-10 as first costumer which are considering T-129 or WZ-10 currently
- Author claims the current WZ-10 do not have modern FLIRs (TADS/PVNS) like seen on early prototype models (I say BS)
- According to this article China searches for testing it in peacekeeping missions somewhere in Africa.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5614/15356876158_849a0447b3_o.jpg
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15543861422_0c204529b4_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3950/15356396399_48b15f0696_o.jpg
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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Werewolf wrote:I wanted to post some informations that the AirForce Monthly put out.
I list some of the points the article claims
- It says it has bulletproof front glass about 38mm thick capable of withstanding 12.7mm rounds
- Type-95KT composite rotor blades and X-tail rotor capable of withstanding at least 12.7mm
- Composite fuselage which is mainly aluminium alloy, RAM painted (Nothing of which would be new)
- Fishy claims of WZ-9 being copy of TV3-117 despite different configuration
- Pakistan could buy WZ-10 as first costumer which are considering T-129 or WZ-10 currently
- Author claims the current WZ-10 do not have modern FLIRs (TADS/PVNS) like seen on early prototype models (I say BS)
- According to this article China searches for testing it in peacekeeping missions somewhere in Africa.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5614/15356876158_849a0447b3_o.jpg
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15543861422_0c204529b4_o.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3950/15356396399_48b15f0696_o.jpg
With the help of Kamov, it's shaping in to a really nice helicopter. I find it fascinating that "right out the box" the WZ-10 had BP glass capable of withstand 12.7 mm fire, but the Apache's windows still till this day cannot withstand 7.62 mm X 39 mm AKM fire!
Werewolf- Posts : 5920
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magnumcromagnon wrote:
With the help of Kamov, it's shaping in to a really nice helicopter. I find it fascinating that "right out the box" the WZ-10 had BP glass capable of withstand 12.7 mm fire, but the Apache's windows still till this day cannot withstand 7.62 mm X 39 mm AKM fire!
I also think that the WZ-10 is shaping to one of the best Attack Helicopters and also the design by Kamov helped it alot, since the plattform defines limitations and from the information publishes so far it seams like one great plattform for further modernisations.
Having bulletproof glass or not is also a big impact on weight and priorities the developer or the program sets. The Apache could actualy use BP glass for the front but so far no alteration in that direction for crew protection have been raised. How the requirements and priorities are set is visible at the LCH program that one user on a different forum posted the early requirements for the LCH program that stated it will have light protection BP glass of light weight which is already questionable how light protection bulletproof glass is defined and provides protection to which calibre.
If you take a look at the big windshields on the LCH you will immidiatley recognize that only the front flat glass can fullfil the requirement of this transparent light weight bulletproof glass, since using BP glass even if it would be indeed light weight would result in over 1 tone extra weight (if it is BP glass safe against 12.7mm) for a helicopter that was designed for High altitude flying comprimising the weight with BP glass that is still heavy even in comperision to modern BP glass is surely not their priority.
EDIT:
Before i completley forget it the article above mentions that china plans to build in near future a 4th generation Stealth Attack Helicopter in 9-10t class.
George1- Posts : 18341
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Army gets advanced, new combat helicopters
(China Daily) 10:44, September 08, 2016
Choppers designed for anti-tank missions, now also have air-to-air fighting capability
The People's Liberation Army has equipped all of its ground force aviation units with advanced WZ-10 combat helicopters, according to PLA media.
Several WZ-10s have been delivered to an aviation brigade of the PLA 13th Group Army under the Western Theater Command, the military's TV news channel reported.
This means that all of the Army's aviation units now have this advanced attack helicopter, the report said.
The deliveries also marked the 30th anniversary of the establishment of the Army's aviation force and opened a new chapter in the force's development, it added.
The Army's aviation wing was formed in October 1986 with a regiment equipped with a combination of domestically manufactured helicopters with old technologies and a few imported advanced ones.
For more than two decades, the backbone of the PLA's attack helicopter teams was formed by the WZ-9, which was developed based on the French Eurocopter Dolphin. The Army did not have a dedicated combat helicopter until 2011, when the first WZ-10s were believed to have entered service with the PLA.
Senior Colonel Xu Guolin, deputy chief of the PLA Army's Aviation Equipment Bureau, told the news channel all of the group armies will have at least one aviation brigade or regiment.
According to a military white paper released in 2013, the PLA Army had 18 group armies at the time, but it is unclear if some of these have been merged or disbanded during troop cuts introduced at the start of this year.
The WZ-10 is developed and produced by Changhe Aircraft Industries Group, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corp of China, the country's leading aircraft manufacturer. It made its public debut in November 2012 at the 9th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, also known as the Zhuhai Air Show.
Aviation industry sources said the helicopter was designed primarily for anti-tank missions, but now has a secondary air-to-air combat capability.
Wu Ximing, chief designer of the helicopter at Changhe Aircraft Industries, said the WZ-10 has superior maneuverability and combat compatibility compared with the WZ-9, although it is a little bit weaker in terms of engine capacity, ammunition-carrying ability and firepower.
Wu Peixin, an aviation analyst in Beijing, said the PLA Army now has a strong force of dedicated combat helicopters thanks to the service of the WZ-10 and WZ-19, another attack helicopter that is less powerful than the WZ-10.
"The Army now needs more medium-lift, multipurpose helicopters such as the US Army's Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk," he said. "This helicopter is capable of performing both combat operations and transport tasks."
Gao Zhuo, a military observer in Shanghai, said the PLA Army needs at least 3,000 helicopters, especially heavy-lift transport types and multipurpose models.
Western defense publications speculate that the PLA Army's aviation force has nearly 1,000 helicopters.
(China Daily) 10:44, September 08, 2016
Choppers designed for anti-tank missions, now also have air-to-air fighting capability
The People's Liberation Army has equipped all of its ground force aviation units with advanced WZ-10 combat helicopters, according to PLA media.
Several WZ-10s have been delivered to an aviation brigade of the PLA 13th Group Army under the Western Theater Command, the military's TV news channel reported.
This means that all of the Army's aviation units now have this advanced attack helicopter, the report said.
The deliveries also marked the 30th anniversary of the establishment of the Army's aviation force and opened a new chapter in the force's development, it added.
The Army's aviation wing was formed in October 1986 with a regiment equipped with a combination of domestically manufactured helicopters with old technologies and a few imported advanced ones.
For more than two decades, the backbone of the PLA's attack helicopter teams was formed by the WZ-9, which was developed based on the French Eurocopter Dolphin. The Army did not have a dedicated combat helicopter until 2011, when the first WZ-10s were believed to have entered service with the PLA.
Senior Colonel Xu Guolin, deputy chief of the PLA Army's Aviation Equipment Bureau, told the news channel all of the group armies will have at least one aviation brigade or regiment.
According to a military white paper released in 2013, the PLA Army had 18 group armies at the time, but it is unclear if some of these have been merged or disbanded during troop cuts introduced at the start of this year.
The WZ-10 is developed and produced by Changhe Aircraft Industries Group, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corp of China, the country's leading aircraft manufacturer. It made its public debut in November 2012 at the 9th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, also known as the Zhuhai Air Show.
Aviation industry sources said the helicopter was designed primarily for anti-tank missions, but now has a secondary air-to-air combat capability.
Wu Ximing, chief designer of the helicopter at Changhe Aircraft Industries, said the WZ-10 has superior maneuverability and combat compatibility compared with the WZ-9, although it is a little bit weaker in terms of engine capacity, ammunition-carrying ability and firepower.
Wu Peixin, an aviation analyst in Beijing, said the PLA Army now has a strong force of dedicated combat helicopters thanks to the service of the WZ-10 and WZ-19, another attack helicopter that is less powerful than the WZ-10.
"The Army now needs more medium-lift, multipurpose helicopters such as the US Army's Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk," he said. "This helicopter is capable of performing both combat operations and transport tasks."
Gao Zhuo, a military observer in Shanghai, said the PLA Army needs at least 3,000 helicopters, especially heavy-lift transport types and multipurpose models.
Western defense publications speculate that the PLA Army's aviation force has nearly 1,000 helicopters.
George1- Posts : 18341
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US media: Over 100 WZ-10 gunships in service in China
BEIJING, October 14 (ChinaMil) -- China has put over a hundred of its new WZ-10 helicopter gunships into service so that all army aviation brigades have a few of them, according to a report published on the website of Strategy Page on October 4, 2016, a military news hub in the US.
The report said that this is a move to get more field experience for the WZ-10 and to show the entire army that the WZ-10 is finally on the way. China plans to eventually have over 500 of them as part of a program to equip the army with over 3,000 modern combat and transport helicopters.
According to the report, Chinese troops operate in a wide variety of climates and terrain, from the dusty deserts in the north to tropical forests in the south and the high and dry conditions of Tibet.
By having army aviation units operating in all these diverse environments able to use the WZ-10, it will take less time to find all the major changes and improvements the aircraft requires, especially for export sales, according to the report.
The WZ-10 is armed with an autocannon (23mm to 30mm) and has four hard points that can carry 16 HJ10 laser guided missiles (similar to US AGM-114 Hellfire) or even more unguided rockets, said the report.
Like most Chinese weapons, the WZ-10 also competes on price and can usually be obtained by export customers for under $20 million, according to the report.
http://english.chinamil.com.cn/view/2016-10/14/content_7301815.htm
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