Infantry Mobility Vehicles

-how about the GAZ "vodnik" family, are any of them in service, and, is it still produced? i like a lot this machine

Don't know about the amount of Vodnik's i also love this beauty, but what i heared is that they found its performance unsatisfactory and stopped further production, but do not know for sure.

cracker wrote:all in the title... I was quite surprised in march 2014 to see so many tigrs in crimea, and, more and more among many units in russia.

I love these vehicles!

and about the iveco LMV (or whatever it is), how about it? in production and in service?


and, it's true that almost no UAZ-469 remain truly in service? (like, almost all replaced by 4x4 ural / gaz / kamaz trucks), i don't seem to see any of those lately.... How about the procurement of the UAZ "tigr" ? i recall some units had them with PKP and AGS-30


more questions!

-how about the GAZ "vodnik" family, are any of them in service, and, is it still produced? i like a lot this machine
-how about the BPM 97 "vystrel", also in service? will be replaced?

GAZ-2975 Tigr - have seen estimates of as high as 500 in service and as low as 120. Expect many more to be produced.
Iveco LMV - original order was for 57 vehicles for testing and a further 358 kits to be assembled in Russia. They should all be in service this year and no more are planned.
UAZ-469 - still see them around and there will be some use for them in the future but the Tigr, LMV and the new Skorpion-2M will eliminate field usage.
Skorpion-2M - replacement for the UAZ-469 and very similar to the LMV.
GAZ Vodnik - understand only ~100 produced. Believe them to be used by the Strategic Rocket Forces as patrol and escort vehicles.
VPK-3927 Volk - starts production this year and will replace need for Vodnik type.
BPM 97 Vystrel - have read that they were being tested by the Russian Army but not confirmed. They are in use with the Border Guard Service.

A few years ago, it was mentioned that the Arzamas plant would produce around 500 Tigrs per year.
That was quite a few years ago. Did they produce that many per year? Less? More?
For sure, a few thousand were produced thus far. Most went to the Army. Some went to police and other paramilitary forces. Some were exported to other countries. Some (not many) were civilian variants.

As Werewolf indicated, Vodnik production seems to have stopped. Probably a few dozens (maybe a bit more) were produced in total.

Vystrel production may still be going on a small scale. Probably a few dozens were made for the army, I believe some were exported to Kazakhstan. A few were seen in Lugansk region of Ukraine.

ok, thanks.

Vodnik was rejected because the MOD did not buy into the whole modular kuzov concept.
Vystrel is by all acounts shit.

Tigr is alright. As a utility vehicle it is pretty good, but the question is how does it fair compared to Iveco in protection.
The issue is with the whole Iveco debacle, is the domestic industry howled how they would make it all themselves, when it became apparent even the MOD was fed up with their incompetence.
After the Iveco deal was canned, the Tigr was supposed to be modernized into the 6A variant with improved and up to date mine/IED protection and higher level of ballistic protection than the basic GOST 5 Tigr.

And here we are in 2015, and the Tigr 6A still has not passed trials, rumor is (quoting Makrushin here, twower blog owner) they can't make it meet the required performance level, and it is questionable if they will be able to at all while maintaining vehicle mobility performance.


So there you have it.

Why not go with the Vol to replace the baseline Tigrs and Ivecos?

Apparently Ivecos were garbage in mobility, including muddy terrain. Tigr was supposed to be replaced by Volk which has better armor and similar mobility but heard nothing.

the problem with all these new fangled "humvee types" is that they are too wide / heavy to go into many places that the UAZ-469 could navigate effortlessly.

Iraqis were gifted 10,000+ HUMVEES by the americans... yet they went and bought hundreds of new build UAZ-469s which are operated by recon units as well as by battalion commanders!

Humvee is fundamentally an light vehicle, Tigr is basically a BTR-80 chopped in half for its suspension.

So while I agree it is not a perfect Uazik replacement (especially for simple liason duties and such), it doesn't suffer from nearly the issues HUMVEE has with suspension overloading and such.

For Uaz replacement I really like the Skorpion.

sheytanelkebir wrote:the problem with all these new fangled "humvee types" is that they are too wide / heavy to go into many places that the UAZ-469 could navigate effortlessly.

Iraqis were gifted 10,000+ HUMVEES by the americans... yet they went and bought hundreds of new build UAZ-469s which are operated by recon units as well as by battalion commanders!

Our Army wasnt happy with UAZ in Iraq they complained about lack of air conditioning and "adaptation to desert condition" i suspect sand and dust clogging the air filter. Can you fill us in on that?

TR1 wrote:Humvee is fundamentally an light vehicle, Tigr is basically a BTR-80 chopped in half for its suspension.

So while I agree it is not a perfect Uazik replacement (especially for simple liason duties and such), it doesn't suffer from nearly the issues HUMVEE has with suspension overloading and such.

For Uaz replacement I really like the Skorpion.

Agreed. Uazik and Tigr are in completely different weight categories.

BTW, any news on the Skorpion in the tests?

TheArmenian wrote:

TR1 wrote:Humvee is fundamentally an light vehicle, Tigr is basically a BTR-80 chopped in half for its suspension.

So while I agree it is not a perfect Uazik replacement (especially for simple liason duties and such), it doesn't suffer from nearly the issues HUMVEE has with suspension overloading and such.

For Uaz replacement I really like the Skorpion.

Agreed. Uazik and Tigr are in completely different weight categories.

BTW, any news on the Skorpion in the tests?

Tests for the Skorpion just finished. Manufacturer awaiting orders on 3 different prototypes.

It appears like there will be Skorpions for utilities, Tigrs for specialized and Volks for transport.

The issue with the Humvee was that the first models were very heavy yet they seemed to have drive trains and suspension designed for a lighter vehicle.

When they first got them they were treated like light armoured vehicles... ie BRDM-2s.

they were not even small arms proof however which led to problems and an increase in armour which made them even heavier.

The Vodnik had no chance with the Russian Army as it was not amphibious... for a Strategic Missile forces guard vehicle it is fine.

sepheronx wrote:Apparently Ivecos were garbage in mobility, including muddy terrain. Tigr was supposed to be replaced by Volk which has better armor and similar mobility but heard nothing.

Ivecos could be transfered for example to the MVD VV; where mobility is less important but mine/IED protection is more critical.

Or they could be perhaps gifted to Belarus or Armenia; they don't have any mine-protected vehicles at all AFAIK.

I really don't see the advantage of keeping them around in the army; it only complicates logistics.

GarryB wrote:The Vodnik had no chance with the Russian Army as it was not amphibious... for a Strategic Missile forces guard vehicle it is fine.

As far as I recall it technically is; albeit it has a low speed while floating (no pump-jets; only wheels) and it can only exit water at low elevations and shallow angles; which criples its amphibious capabilities for most practical purposes.

rtech wrote:

sheytanelkebir wrote:the problem with all these new fangled "humvee types" is that they are too wide / heavy to go into many places that the UAZ-469 could navigate effortlessly.

Iraqis were gifted 10,000+ HUMVEES by the americans... yet they went and bought hundreds of new build UAZ-469s which are operated by recon units as well as by battalion commanders!

Our Army wasnt happy with UAZ in Iraq they complained about lack of air conditioning and "adaptation to desert condition" i suspect sand and dust clogging the air filter. Can you fill us in on that?

They seem fine in Iraq. Certainly better than Humvee but not as good as the various commercial pickups they use as gun trucks.


The scorpion 2m seems to have the same issue as others compared to UAZ. It is 2.1 m wide. Not as bad as humvee or tigr... But still pretty wide and heavy. They need to make a truly modern day Willis jeep / uaz469 not these bloated monstrosities. I'd imagine even in Russia there will be many many places inaccessible by these vehicles that a UAZ can stroll through with ease. I remember in southern iraq some units would leave their humvee at depot and make their patrols in tuctuc (or a UAZ if they had one... But the UAZ are rare)... Simply for driving on canal levees.  Narrow village roads and alleys. In palm groves and getting up and down the small irrigation channels everywhere.

Sure in open desert or a wide road the wide vehicles are superior. But the military always to into difficult areas as part of their job and they really do need a narrow vehicle. The iranian little safeer jeep also is quite nifty for that role IMHO. Russian army needs a true replacement for UAZ IMHO a scorpion 1 or 2 which keeps the external dimensions of the UAZ but updating the mechanicals for more modern engine and transmission would fit the bill. Maybe even an electric / hybrid option that would allow the driver to use "electric drive" when going towards where he wants to reduce noise... Jeep is making such a hybrid with a 60km electric range (plus petrol engine for the remainder)

Something like this maybe...it can carry 6 passengers, goes just about anywhere and looks pretty small....there's a 6 wheelled version as well

As far as I recall it technically is; albeit it has a low speed while floating (no pump-jets; only wheels) and it can only exit water at low elevations and shallow angles; which criples its amphibious capabilities for most practical purposes.

I believe the advertising material stated that it had a water displacing hull... which basically meant it was water tight for fording but did not float in all (most) configurations.

For light vehicles there is Ansyr



and Skorpion light tactical:

GarryB wrote:I believe the advertising material stated that it had a water displacing hull... which basically meant it was water tight for fording but did not float in all (most) configurations.

That it does, but it's also amphibious




AFAIK while it ordinarily uses its wheels for water traversal, a waterjet can optionally be mounted too.

The Chechen OMON has begun 2 month trials of the Scorpion light armoured vehicle

If all goes well, the vehicle will be ordered by the Ministry of Interior. Serial production could begin in 2016

The "Scorpion" weighs 5 tons and can carry up to 1.1 tons of cargo. The car is equipped with a diesel engine producing 166 hp - max speed - 130 km / h. Cruising range - 1000 km. Wheel formula - 4x4. The car is equipped with armor protection from small arms and Grade 6 Standard mine protection

http://www.vpk-news.ru/news/25140

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Armour protection test

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Mine protection test (4kg of TNT)

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Army to order some of the new Skorpion vehicles for testing with the Spetsnaz and Reconnaissance units.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1436755.html

https://defencerussia.wordpress.com/2015/08/18/corporation-zaschita-to-supply-the-defense-ministry-with-armored-vehicles-party-skorpion-lsha-2b/

Clickbait material. You should read the article before....

These are not new purchases but apparently the remainder of the previous contract.  Apparently the last batches to be made.  Instead of cancelling the contract, they just didnt end up purchasing more.

Russia continues to buy Iveco LMV armored cars from Italy

Despite sanctions Russia continues to buy 4WD tactical Italian-made Iveco LMVs (Light Multirole Vehicle). They are currently being used in the conflict in Syria. Why is the West continuing to sell Russia vehicles that do not feature dual capabilities, but are instead exclusively used for military purposes? RBTH decided to investigate.

There are many photographs on the internet showing Russian soldiers in Syria next to an Iveco LMV. The Italian armored car can be seen on the runway at Khmeimim Air Base, among military convoys on Syria's roads and even as part of the escort for Russia's S-400 anti-aircraft weapon systems. Soldiers from the Syrian armed forces also like having their photos taken in front of it.

The adventures of Italian vehicles in Russia

The Iveco LMV, along with its adopted name Lince (Lynx, 'Rys'), have acquired a very mixed reputation in Russia and are closely associated with the unpopular former Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov. After being dismissed, Serdyukov was implicated in a corruption scheme and came to be criticized by the military for his poorly conceived and radical reforms, as well as his “Westernization” drive in military equipment procurement. As a result of his actions, the Russian armed forces possess Israeli drones and Italian armored cars; the former minister of defense is also responsible for the infamous contracts to buy Mistral helicopter carriers from France. The Italians, as has recently been shown, are seemingly more consistent in their foreign policy than the French. The Iveco supply contract, which initially appeared to be highly problematic, ultimately outlived all other procurement initiatives from Serdyukov’s tenure.

The story continues

The sale of the Iveco LMV armored cars were not hindered by Western sanctions, which prohibited the supply of not only Russian military equipment, but also dual-use technologies. This is because the contract for the sale of these vehicles was signed before the introduction of the sanctions, therefore they are not covered by them.

The vehicles are being purchased by a company called Garnizon, which was previously known as Oboronservis, but changed its name following the corruption scandal associated with the dismissal of Serdyukov. According to the company's annual report for last year, 81 Lynx assembly kits were imported into Russia in 2014 and another 94 were due to be delivered in 2015.

In 2015, according to tender documents published on electronic platforms, Russia's defense forces should receive 356 LMVs between mid-2015 and mid-2016.

All of the assembled vehicles go to one of the Ministry of Defense's reserve pools, from where some of the vehicles apparently have ended up in Syria. Their unsuitability there for washed-out or snow-covered roads is less of a factor, but their advantages – such as offering good protection for crews against roadside land mines – are very much in demand.

http://rbth.com/defence/2016/01/25/russia-continues-to-buy-iveco-lmv-armored-cars-from-italy_562027

George1 wrote:Russia continues to buy Iveco LMV armored cars from Italy

Despite sanctions Russia continues to buy 4WD tactical Italian-made Iveco LMVs (Light Multirole Vehicle). They are currently being used in the conflict in Syria. Why is the West continuing to sell Russia vehicles that do not feature dual capabilities, but are instead exclusively used for military purposes? RBTH decided to investigate.

There are many photographs on the internet showing Russian soldiers in Syria next to an Iveco LMV. The Italian armored car can be seen on the runway at Khmeimim Air Base, among military convoys on Syria's roads and even as part of the escort for Russia's S-400 anti-aircraft weapon systems. Soldiers from the Syrian armed forces also like having their photos taken in front of it.

The adventures of Italian vehicles in Russia

The Iveco LMV, along with its adopted name Lince (Lynx, 'Rys'), have acquired a very mixed reputation in Russia and are closely associated with the unpopular former Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov. After being dismissed, Serdyukov was implicated in a corruption scheme and came to be criticized by the military for his poorly conceived and radical reforms, as well as his “Westernization” drive in military equipment procurement. As a result of his actions, the Russian armed forces possess Israeli drones and Italian armored cars; the former minister of defense is also responsible for the infamous contracts to buy Mistral helicopter carriers from France. The Italians, as has recently been shown, are seemingly more consistent in their foreign policy than the French. The Iveco supply contract, which initially appeared to be highly problematic, ultimately outlived all other procurement initiatives from Serdyukov’s tenure.

The story continues

The sale of the Iveco LMV armored cars were not hindered by Western sanctions, which prohibited the supply of not only Russian military equipment, but also dual-use technologies. This is because the contract for the sale of these vehicles was signed before the introduction of the sanctions, therefore they are not covered by them.

The vehicles are being purchased by a company called Garnizon, which was previously known as Oboronservis, but changed its name following the corruption scandal associated with the dismissal of Serdyukov. According to the company's annual report for last year, 81 Lynx assembly kits were imported into Russia in 2014 and another 94 were due to be delivered in 2015.

In 2015, according to tender documents published on electronic platforms, Russia's defense forces should receive 356 LMVs between mid-2015 and mid-2016.

All of the assembled vehicles go to one of the Ministry of Defense's reserve pools, from where some of the vehicles apparently have ended up in Syria. Their unsuitability there for washed-out or snow-covered roads is less of a factor, but their advantages – such as offering good protection for crews against roadside land mines – are very much in demand.

http://rbth.com/defence/2016/01/25/russia-continues-to-buy-iveco-lmv-armored-cars-from-italy_562027

Wait... havent these deliveries being halted when Tigr entered mass production and original contract for 350+ Ivecos was completed in mid 2014. Russians even gave away some of them to Syrians which looks like they are trying to get rid of them. This article does not make much sense to me to be honest.

"Oleg Bochkarev, deputy chairman of the Russian Military-Industrial Commission, told the news agency that Moscow does not plan more output of the Italian-licensed light multipurpose vehicles for the Ministry of Defence. "We have declined further production of these vehicles, and under current conditions this would generally be, I think, impossible," he said." - 12 November 2014

"In 2015, according to tender documents published on electronic platforms, Russia's defense forces should receive 356 LMVs between mid-2015 and mid-2016." - id like to see this document if someone spots it share with us.