Infantry Mobility Vehicles

I am pretty sure that Kamaz has the capacity to make over one and a half thousand Ivecos over the next 5 years as planned and also make plenty of Vystrels and other vehicles too.

The simple fact is that Kamaz realises that while it has permission to licence produce the M65 from Italy that the vehicle is made of parts from other countries including Germany and the US and so while they have Ivecos permission to make the vehicle they don't have permission to make the foreign components too.

The foreign components include the ceramic armour and the engine so without those components the vehicle is pointless, and worse still if they made them without permission the makers of the components could sue Kamaz, which would be bad for business and might effect their sales performance in certain vehicle markets where they currently make a lot of money.

The US engine alone could result in the engine maker going to congress and getting an import ban on all Kamaz products into the US. Germany could do the same with the EU.

And for what?

So that Kamaz can licence produce an Italian vehicle?

I am sure they would rather make Russian vehicles.

Personally I think the best solution would be to make the ten vehicles for the contract and then sell them to an existing user of the vehicle type cheaply to recover some of the costs and then mass produce something like the Tigr-M or a Russian equivelent where there are no licensing issues.

With the French PVP... this is in a much lighter weight range... and there are less likely to be issues with foreign components because the French tend to use French components.

If the Russian industry can make a comparable vehicle then put that in production, otherwise make buy the licence for the PVP.

from the start i wondered how would they be able to pull this off? Why would USA/NATO want to transfer their technology to Russia? now i wonder what did US promise Italy in return for the lost opportunity? They could use some money, Berluskoni a good friend with Putin he would not let him down like this unless pressured into it.

On the other hand - really, what is the point for Russia to spend money in Italy, when they can produce their own armored vehicles, even with the "old school" steel armor without any ceramics or any other lightweight materials (let it be based on large Ural/Kamaz chassis). The IVECO is not really designed for the Russian soldier and the way Russians conduct their operations, does not fit the threat and tactics used by their enemies. Russian's tiger although not so powerful or exotic as far as materials used can handle same tasks as IVECO (maybe with some modifications to Tiger)

More importantly the Tigr is able to cross rough country and deep snow better than the Iveco as shown during tests.

The Tigr-M has a better engine that is Russian and should have even better performance.

I have not seen specs for the Tigr-M anywhere but the original Tigr seems to be the same weight or lighter than the Iveco.

I do feel that this armored vehicle which is in direct competition with the IVECO LMV requires a separate thread like the IVECO. So here is it for the VPK-3927 Volk (Wolf) with an article from Autoreview.

I'm not aware of the very latest that has happened in the light armored vehicle selection. But my strong feeling is against going for the IVECO LMV. Licence manufacturing will not just sideline the Russia's own light armored vehicles, but it will also send a negative image regarding the failure of the Russian manufactures to come up with a competitive product which will affect the likely sales in the international market also. But the first likely outcome of selection of IVECO will be claims by the western fanboys as to how bad in shape the Russian industries are.

The competitor to the IVECO LMV are the GAZ Tigr and VPK-3927 Volk (Wolf), both of which have good spec compared to the IVECO LMV.


Autoreview article on the Wolf - Wolf, brother of Tiger

I did not post the translate as translation is not very accurate.

















YMZ-534 is installed longitudinally. GAZ Tiger earlier had a 3.2 litre inline-6 engine with a power of 197kW & a torque of 45kgm. After the moron Bo Anderson came as CEO of GAZ group, he probably was the sole hand behind ending the Russian R&D and powerplant development. Hs is the guy who is destroying GAZ from inside. First of his mission was to strip the "RED" from GAZ logo, he made it black, blue and now probably its plain background. The decision of licensee producing the outdated garbage from GM in the form of Sibir sedan made GAZ a laughing stock. And in all probability he was the sole hand in ousting the earlier 3.2 liter engine from the GAZ Tiger and made the way for the Cummins. That too when GAZ could have updated and improved the engine even further internally or by collaborating with AVL of Austria.





Chief Designer of Volk, Alexander Lebedev.



The beast showcases its 250mm-550mm ground clearance with fully lowered suspension & with fully raised position (below). Volk have the highest GC among the three armored vehicles.





IVECO LMV


Comparison chart for Volk, Tiger & IVECO



From the autoreview comparison chart we can see that both the Tiger & Wolf are heavier than the IVECO by 300kg, but both these Russian beasts also have a higher load carrying capacity than the IVECO's armored vehicle. The YMZ-534 engine is little heavy compared the cummins engine and it can be seen in the comparison chart. The weight difference for the Volk & Tiger is the contribution of the YMZ engine and the related transmission. But nothing to worry and within acceptable range and the higher power output of the YMZ engine probably will nullyfy it. Hope they will reduce the weight of the YMZ & its transmission in the next series.




VPK-3927 have load capacity of 1.5 tons


VPK-39273 & VPK-39272 (below) have a load capacity of 2.5 tons





Other links to the Wolf
http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/316
http://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_uk/wolf_military-industrial_company_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_data_sheet_specifications_information_inte.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VPK-3927_Volk

I think the fundamental problem is that in the west the demand for light armoured SUVs was created some time ago when vehicles like the Hummer were used in combat situations and found to not perform well in the unarmoured versions. I think some looked at the original Hummer and thought because of its weight that it was armoured, but it wasn't.
The solution of the armoured hummers was not great because that made them even heavier which made them even more unpopular.

Hense the west has been working on what is basically an armoured SUV for most of the last decade.

The Russian military saw the final product and asked where the Russian equivalent was... and all they had was BRDM like vehicles. It has taken a few years but the Russian MIC has come up with several options and they are getting better all the time.

The Tigr with the new Russian engines is the Tigr-M and looks to be very good even in comparison with the western vehicles.

The Iveco was singled out as being wonderful because its light ceramic armour gave it similar protection but made the vehicle much lighter.

Well now it is not the case and also it was found that that the Iveco has a structure with ceramic armour added and it has some gaps apparently, whereas the Tigrs armour is structural and gives full coverage of the crew compartment and the engine.

There is a video floating around of a race through deep snow with a Tigr and an Iveco and the Italian vehicle gets stuck pretty quickly due to poor ground clearance.

The only foreign vehicle I think they should be looking at is the French PVP in the very light class, otherwise I think the Russian MIC can manage on their own.

BTW the comparison chart shows max weight differences of 400kgs between the Wolf and Iveco, but the payload difference is much greater at 1.5 ton to 770kgs.

That means with the same payload of 770kgs the Wolf has 730kgs remaining payload and if its max weight is 400kgs heavier then it is actually 330kgs lighter... with the same payload.

Russia produce some good armored vehicles like Tigr-M, Volk and Vystrel-M. I don't know if Vodnik is still in the game or it is abandoned, but those vehicles are good enough to do their job, that Russian MoD, MVD and FSB don't need to buy foreign vehicles.

About payload, I think 770 kg for Iveco LMV means 5 fully equipped soldiers (150 kg per person), on the other hand 1500 kg for Tigr-M and Volk mean 10 fully equipped soldiers (150 kg per person).

Any news about Panhard vehicles for Border guard? I hope we will soon see at least trial vehicles in russian colors.

Domestic competitor for the Tiger

Scorpion LTA
http://www.zashchita.ru/production/openarmored/Skorpion_LTV/photo/


And the Scorpion 2M which is currently undergoing trials as replacement for the general purpose UAZ jeep

pics + video
http://www.zashchita.ru/production/notarmored/Skorpion-2M/

and a few more links

http://www.russia-autonews.com/auto-news/2011/09/16/the-new-assault-vehicle-scorpion-which-then-change-the-russian-army-is-being-tested-video.html

http://warsonline.info/bronetechnika/novie-rossiyskie-broneavtomobili-skorpion-lta-i-skorpion-lsha.html

http://www.spbvoditel.ru/2011/09/16/041/

Thanks.

On a related note I have read that the new Russian engine in the Tigr-M will get "inservice" testing... in other words they will use it and any problems will be resolved in the line, with any major changes or updates made to the basic design and added to inservice vehicles.

Certainly the most realistic testing you can get, but has the potential for problems if the engine is not as good as they seem to think it is.

In real terms this Scorpion vehicle seems to be in the PVP class rather than Tigr-M so its future is probably quite bright if it can match the PVP in performance.

The Scorpion is more like an UAZ replacement than a TIGR competitor.
By the way, the Russian Defense Ministry annouced recently that they won't be buying the good old UAZ 4x4 anymore. Seems to indicate they are switching over to this Scorpion.

Edit: Just found this video made by Vitaly Kuzmin about the SCORPION:

Looks good... seems to be a range of vehicles from light SUV up to moderately armoured SUV that should be an interesting vehicle.

GarryB wrote:Thanks.

On a related note I have read that the new Russian engine in the Tigr-M will get "inservice" testing...

Yes I saw that recently. I think they're in a hurry to introduce it in service.

In real terms this Scorpion vehicle seems to be in the PVP class rather than Tigr-M so its future is probably quite bright if it can match the PVP in performance.

The armoured Scorpion LTA seems to be in the same class as the heavy armoured Tiger-6A


Here's an english language version of the Ria Novosti report on the Scorpion-2M test




______________________________________________________________________________


25 kits for armoured Tigers have been supplied to China in 2011. A further order (unspecified number) has been placed with delivery expected in 2012

http://www.itar-tass.com/c134/257029.html

It looks Scorpion-2M will be UAZ replacement. Armored Scorpion-LTA is heavier and more near to Tiger, but I don't think they will be competitors. Scorpion-LTA could be good scout vehicle.

It is pretty tricky keeping them all sorted in your head... going from none to half a dozen new vehicles is a little mind blowing.

We have the Tigr-M with the offshoot of the Volk or Wolf.

We now have the Scorpion-2M with the heavier Scorpion LTA.

There is the Medved or Bear SPM-3.

There is the BPM-97 Vystrel.

Plus there are the foreign vehicles being considered like the Iveco M65 and the French PVP.

They are all at the light end of the vehicle range and as such, once or if they are put into production they could probably make 500+ a year almost straight away and if there is foreign interest they could certainly ramp that up to rather more.

I remember that the origin of the Tigr was not Russian military interest... from memory it was a Middle Eastern country that was finding the American Humvees to be too heavy and to expensive to buy and to operate, yet they were not even the armoured models. After the Tigr was developed the US upped their aid to that country so in the end it didn't even order any Tigrs, but the development was paid for.

I remember that was why the cummins engine was included in the design for commonality with the other Humvees in service.

Nice to see, that Vodniks are in use. Maybe they could replace the turret with more modern one, like from BTR-82 with 14,5 mm machine gun.

They probably have thousands of the old turrets from older vehicles... it is probably just cheaper to use them.

For escorting Space forces vehicles it is probably actually an FSB vehicle I guess.

Vodnik has been in service for a few years with at least one unit in the Caucasus. But I don't think new ones have been ordered for a while.

How did Vodnik perform in Chechnya? There must be some reasons why army is no more interested in Vodnik.

Russian Military to Buy 60 Italian Tactical Vehicles

RIA Novosti

16:36 24/01/2012 MOSCOW, January 24 (RIA Novosti) - Russia signed a deal with Italy in December on the semi-knocked down assembly of 60 Lynx light multirole armored vehicles (LMV) from Iveco, Deputy Defense Minister Alexander Sukhorukov said on Tuesday.

“The deal was signed in December. Italy will supply kits that will be assembled at a joint enterprise in [central] Russian city of Voronezh,” Sukhorukov said.

Four vehicles were earlier acquired and brought to Russia for comparative tests with Russian analogues, he said.

“They displayed better characteristics than the vehicles we are currently using,” Sukhorukov said.

The LMV M65 is a light multirole armored vehicle developed in 2001 by Iveco Defense Vehicles. It is designed primarily for strategic and tactical mobility with a high level of protection against anti-tank and anti-personnel mines.

Russian military currently exploits Tigr (Gaz-2330) light armored vehicles manufactured at Russia's Gorkovsky automobile plant (GAZ) and Arzamas machinery plant (AMZ).

http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120124/170926228.html

What will be the fate of Volk vehicles?

A purchase of only 60 vehicles assembled from kits supplied by Italy suggests they haven't sorted out proper licence production.

This bodes well for the Volk, as it means delays, which can be exploited by the Russian vehicle makers to work out what feature makes the foreign vehicles desirable to the Russian military and to try to shoehorn that feature into their vehicles ASAP.

Great news. If there are problems with the Tigr or Volk, they can always be improved.

Problem with the Volk as I heard - is just that it's not ready or it's manufacturers don't have the capacity for mass-production in the quantities needed by the Russian military, right now. The Iveco and whathaveyou can on the other hand be procured immediately

That would make sense... it is one thing to make a few prototypes for testing, but full production requires proper investment.

The Iveco is unlikely to be mass produced for Russia for the reasons outlined in the first post of this thread... basically there are a lot of components that Iveco don't have the production rights to sell to Kamaz, so it is never going to be able to offer full licence production... it can only offer kits for Russian Assembly.

Which is good in my biased opinion... good for Volk and Tigr-M.

Russia to Get First 57 Italian Armored Vehicles in 2012

I think this article gives us the clues...

The Russian Armed Forces will take delivery of the first 57 Italian Lince (Lynx) light multirole armored vehicles (LMV) before the end of the current year, Defense Ministry press secretary Irina Kovalchuk said on Wednesday.

“These machines will go primarily to the Southern Military District,” she said.

The district incorporates Russia’s troubled North Caucasus republics.

Russia signed a deal with Italy’s Iveco company in December on the semi-knocked down assembly of Lynx vehicles in the central Russia city of Voronezh.



Localization of production at the Voronezh plant is currently 10 percent, Kovalchuk said, adding that by 2014 it is to reach 50 percent.



Lynx is a light multirole armored vehicle developed in 2001 by Iveco Defense Vehicles. It ensures high mobility and protection against anti-tank and anti-personnel mines.

They will be located in the Southern District... I suspect this order is largely for Paramilitary units (MVD and FSB) for Sochi in 2014. I rather suspect that the price was right as Italy would like to sell products and perhaps the Tigr-M is not fully tested and ready for large scale production.

Based on experience with Tigr-M and now Lynx the Russian armour companies will have more insight and experience with the Typhoon family of light vehicles... we really don't know whether they cover the full range of very light to light (ie 3-4 tons to 12-13 tons), though we do know there are 4 and 6 wheeled versions....