Russia - USA Relations

Palestinian wrote:Satanic in the sense that these books like the jewish talmud show total hostility and malice towards non-jews. They feel themselves superior to all others.

The jewish Talmud was written by rabbis during times when it was perfectly okay to murder anyone who did not follow your religion. It is not necessarily considered a holy book because it is the word of men and not the word of God.

What about the "Holy" Quran? I am pretty sure there are parts where killing infidels is perfectly acceptable

And that's the word of God

GarryB wrote:They are not secret.

The U.S. Justice agrees with the position of Moscow, but District of Columbia Judge Royce Lamberth, who took the decision, rejected the objections of the Justice Ministry.

The litigation on the Schneerson Library continues for several years in U.S. courts. In early August 2010, Judge Lamberth said that books and manuscripts were kept in the Russian State Library and Russian military archives “illegally,” and that the Hasidim had all rights for them.

Russia’s reaction was tough. Russian Foreign Ministry officials clearly stated that there would be no return made at all.

Amusing really... and a very dangerous precedent... how many objects are there in western museums that were stolen or looted from their rightful owners and displayed... worse, how many are sitting in the basements of those museums because there is not enough space to display their entire collection.

The article clearly says the US Justice ministry agrees with the Russian government, so this is one US judge overstepping his authority.

In the Quran, it does state you are allowed to kill your enemy's who are trying to kill you. It also states God would prefer you to have mercy on them if they surrender. The talmud is more about supremecy. In the talmud it states all non-jews are like cattle and do not deserve the same rights as jews.

Here is an interesting video of a former jew, who describes his life growing up as one. This guy's videos receive millions of views.

Lets perhaps keep on topic, this is about the ownership of a large collection of very old books held by the Russian state.

The Russian government came to possess the books because the owner died with no natural heir.

The books have been kept preserved and are available to Russians to access freely, and at least 7 were lent to these American based groups who are demanding the entire collection be sent to the US so they can possess it.

The 7 books have not been returned so the Russians understandably are not allowing any more items from the library be sent to US museums for display because they fear they will not be returned either.

This court action means that any Russian exhibit sent to the US or any Russian property in the US could be seized because of this verdict, which will seriously effect the cultural exchanges between these two countries.

Russia’s insulting U.S. has set example for Hong Kong and Ecuador - former CIA head

R. James Woolsey Jr., director of central intelligence during the Clinton administration, said that the United States’ failure to deal strongly with Russia and President Putin is setting an example for other countries in the Edward Snowden leak escapade.

“Hong Kong and Ecuador are learning from Russia, which is that if you insult the United States and don’t follow international norms with respect to it, nothing happens,” Mr. Woolsey said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “And so they’re behaving appropriately. Nothing’s happening.”

“His general attitude is don’t be weak, and that’s fine, but he’s not really doing anything else except avoiding being weak, simply trying to throw his weight around with respect to the United States,” Mr. Woolsey said. “He’s not cooperating, really, on anything substantial, and there’s no risk in it for him. He doesn’t have anything negative happen when he behaves that way with us, so the kind of cooperative relationship we had from time to time in the past, say with [Mikhail] Gorbachev, is just not here … he’s almost impossible to work with.”

Mr. Snowden, a 30-year-old who had top-secret clearance and disclosed the government’s collection of phone records and a program that tracks some foreigners’ Internet activity, revealed his plans through a statement from WikiLeaks — founded by leaker Julian Assange — after reports he departed from Hong Kong bound for Moscow and then a new haven from American authorities seeking his arrest.

 Ecuadorean Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino confirmed on Twitter that his government had received an asylum request from Mr. Snowden, who landed in Moscow on Sunday and planned to travel to South America through Cuba, The Associated Press reported, citing Russian news agencies.
Read more: http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_06_24/Russia-s-insulting-U-S-has-set-example-for-Hong-Kong-and-Ecuador-2259/

lol, of course they want a carpet like Gorby, who had to work with the West.

Americans always talk about dealing "strong" with Russia, but are always lacking details.
There really isn't much the US can do anymore.

Plus, we already had a recent administration (Bush +Putin) on both sides that were unwilling to cooperate. ANd what happened? Some nasty words, bickering, nothing definitive.
Is that really the prescription this guy wants? because they won't get another Gorbachev, sorry.


The US is itself not the world leader on following international norms.

Even if Russia gives Assylum to Snowden , How is that different from the recent Aleksandr Poteyev fleeing to US and getting assylum there when he betrayed illegal program .....or previously when Russian spies defected to US and were given assylum.

I guess Snowden would have good intelligence on NSA activities in Russia so even if he is a spy and gets assylum in Russia it wont be any different to what US did in the past or recently.

It is a great way to turn everyones attention away from the fact that the US was and is breaking international law and their attempts to hunt down the whistleblower is just an attempt to hide or gloss over their guilt... what they should be doing is giving this guy a ticker tape parade, but instead he is going to prison while the people responsible for breaking international law walk free.

GarryB wrote:It is a great way to turn everyones attention away from the fact that the US was and is breaking international law and their attempts to hunt down the whistleblower is just an attempt to hide or gloss over their guilt... what they should be doing is giving this guy a ticker tape parade, but instead he is going to prison while the people responsible for breaking international law walk free.

There are some who keeps focus on important things
‘Mad invader, eavesdropper’: China slams US after Snowden accusations

Still you are right. Journalism has touched rocked bottom. No one seems to be interested in truth or common sense. 

Only thing that matters right now is where is Snowden? The thing that he revealed, the reason why US is looking for him seems to be of no ones interest. 

Just to say Moody has lowered rating of 8 Hong Kong banks. Strange coincidence:D

TR1 wrote:The US is itself not the world leader on following international norms.

That much has been obvious since the days of Fidel.

[url=http://en.rian.ru/world/20130625/181867683/US-Lawmaker-Calls-Putin-KGB-Apparatchik.html]US Lawmaker Calls Putin KGB ‘Apparatchik’[/url]

WASHINGTON, June 25 (RIA Novosti) – US lawmaker and former presidential candidate John McCain on Tuesday called Russian President Vladimir Putin a KGB “apparatchik” and suggested Moscow is deliberately impeding the United States’ attempts to detain fugitive former US intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.

“We’ve got to start dealing with Vladimir Putin in a realistic fashion for what he is,” McCain, a Republican senator from Arizona, said in an interview with CNN. “He’s an old KGB Colonel apparatchik that dreams of the days of the Russian Empire, and he continues to stick his thumb in our eye in a broad variety of ways.”

McCain dismissed an assertion by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Tuesday that Snowden, who leaked details of a US surveillance program to newspapers in the US and UK earlier this month, was not in Russia following his reported flight to Moscow’s Sheremetyevo Airport from Hong Kong on Sunday.

A consistently vocal Putin critic, McCain said Russia’s handling of the Snowden affair would negatively impact bilateral relations between the two countries.

“[Putin] has to understand, and we have to be serious, that this will affect our relations with Russia in a broad variety of ways and that does not mean a return to the Cold War, but it means a very realistic approach to our relations,” McCain said.
Snowden was being kept out of public view at the airport’s transit area, according to an airport source who spoke to RIA Novosti on Monday after he failed to get on a Cuba-bound plane that he had reportedly been checked in for.

A White House spokesman said on Monday that Washington believes that Snowden remains in Russia, and called on Moscow to assess “the options available” to expel him back to the United States to face criminal charges.

In his interview with CNN on Tuesday, McCain also accused Putin of having a “disdain for democracy and the things we stand for and believe in” and referenced allegations last week that the Russian president had stolen a Super Bowl championship ring from the owner of the New England Patriots of the US National Football League.

“If he sees a situation he'll take advantage of it. Anybody that takes somebody's Super Bowl ring has got to be not exactly like us,” McCain told CNN.

The American football team’s billionaire owner, Robert Kraft, said in 2005 that he handed Putin the 124-diamond ring as gift. But at an awards ceremony in New York City this month, Kraft said the ring was not a gift and he would like to have it back. The next day, a Patriots spokesman said Kraft’s new statement was a joke.

Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said last week that he had personally witnessed Kraft willingly give the ring to Putin, adding that the ring was being stored in the Kremlin’s library.

The Russians don't understand democracy?

The US does not understand international law... or more accurately thinks they are above the law.

I would say the Russians understand democracy better than most US politicians...

McCain being McCain.

What else did anyone expect lol?

GarryB wrote:The US does not understand international law... or more accurately thinks they are above the law.

Given that I've been paying about zero attention to this as we don't have the balls to solve either problem in Europe with finality, what exactly is being violated? That's not a sarcastic question, I honestly have not followed much of this at all, except to comment to friends that if they think this was a new concept they were idiots.

International law includes laws on privacy, which US programs of electronic surveillance are violating.

It is the electronic equivalent of entering every house to try to find evidence of illegal activity.

Especially when the claimed goals of the system is supposed to be for use against terrorists, drug dealers and child molestors, yet the programs seem to be geared for industrial espionage.

BTW I guess the US is in real trouble now because they don't negotiate with terrorists yet they are holding talks with the Taleban...

Hypocrite says what...

GarryB wrote:International law includes laws on privacy, which US programs of electronic surveillance are violating.

I don't know. I guess part of the reason I just can't bring myself to really care about the whole thing is that, like I said, if someone thinks that this is some sort of brand new idea, they're clearly deluded. I'd also go so far asto say that if anyone thinks we're the only ones doing it, that is equally deluded. We just don't have the right amount of deterrence built into the system I guess.

GarryB wrote:the programs seem to be geared for industrial espionage.

How do you figure that?

GarryB wrote:BTW I guess the US is in real trouble now because they don't negotiate with terrorists yet they are holding talks with the Taleban...  

Hypocrite says what...

Don't even get me started!

How do you figure that?

I did a computer security paper at university and did a study on Echelon.

The NSA had regular (Monthly) meetings with the heads of major US companies... can you guess why?

I'd also go so far asto say that if anyone thinks we're the only ones doing it, that is equally deluded.

Correction everyone else wants to do this, but only the US has the option.

For instance with listening stations here in NZ... AFAIK there are only American stations... the data is sent to the US... we don't even get to look at it. They tell us what they think we should know.

Lets just say when France decided to destroy a boat in a NZ harbour we got no warning from Echelon, and when the French threatened to cut us out of the EU for dairy exports the US was nowhere to be seen but we kept on sending data to the US.

Our coverage is Asia and the south pacific.

GarryB wrote:The NSA had regular (Monthly) meetings with the heads of major US companies... can you guess why?

Depends on the companies. I could think of quite a few reasons that aren't profit-related...

The information I managed to get hold of mentioned that the NSA passed on to Boeing intercepted information from officials of a foreign country that were deciding on the choice between Boeing and Airbus for a major contract... the intercepts revealing several of the officials had an interest in female French companionship and as part of the deal Airbus was happy to oblige.

Now that doesn't effect profits... but having such information gives you several choices including offering a better quality of the product in demand... and I don't mean aircraft, or simply outing the officials and hoping you will win fair and square, or obviously talking to said official and threatening to tell their spouse about their arrangements with Airbus... and probably several other options I have not even considered.

Another use was to determine the final offer of a competitor so that you can make your offer more appealing without offering more than you need to get the contract.

(BTW I got an A+ for the paper and my lecturer asked to keep it as an example to other students for the future. My Lecturer was in the CIA for several decades and was disappearing to the US to places like West Point to give lectures to the US military)

Industrial Intelligence and Espionage very common , considering the rivalry that Boeing and Airbus has I wont be surprised that NSA would try to get as much information and secrets from Airbus and pass it on to Boeing.

Molesting young boys is sadly very common, and when discovered should it be ignored or dealt with properly?

Or should governments be above the law?

Sorry, but if Snowden was releasing info about a Chinese electronic network of spy systems he would be held up as a hero in the west and most certainly have been given all sorts of honours like medals, a pay raise and perhaps promotion... likely even some sort of peace prize.

He broke rules to reveal a much more serious breaking of rules and it seems the guilty party is going to try its best to get revenge and sweep everything back under the carpet.

It makes US criticism of the terrible abuses of other states towards their citizens seem hollow and empty, but all they seem to be worried about at the moment is closing the leak rather than seriously asking itself about its real values... not the crap that it spouts through every movie and TV show, but its real values.

I am sure in a movie a real US hero would say if we have to cheat and lie to stay perfectly safe then it is not worth it... indeed those that argue such things are necessary to remain "safe" have a different understanding of the word safe than the rest of us anyway it seems.

The irony is that the US would be a much better country if it actually stood behind its high morals, but it doesn't... it is not Superman as it likes to see itself, it is more like the arch villains that Superman fights... sad pathetic beings whose focus is taking over the world and controlling it.

Perhaps the best leadership role the US could adopt would be leading by example, but it has clearly lost its way.

A lot of people who have disagreed with me over the years (and there have been quite a few) actually think I am anti American... the fact is that the fundamental ideals of the US are actually very good... they pinched them from all sorts of cultures and civilisations through the years but basically they hold up. The problem is the selfish double standard in implimenting these morals based on US interests. For instance spreading democracy does not apply to Saudi Arabia because the people there are generally anti west and it is not in Americas interests to have a hostile Saudi Arabia. The monarchy that rules there isn't thousands of years old as you might think... they were created by the British and French in the 1920s when Arabia became countries based on known oil deposits... the British and French took over the former colonies of the losing states of WWI like Germany. Equally in Kosovo the Albanians deserve independence from Serbia because the US does not like Serbia, yet Serbians living in Kosovo don't get the option of an independent state separate from Kosovo and neither do Bosnian Serbs. South Ossetians and Abkhazians must live under Georgian rule according to US foreign policy... amusingly that would suit Stalin personally as he was a Georgian but his mother was South Ossetian and he wanted the two countries joined so he could be all Georgian. In my Opinion if you are going to join two states in the region it would be North Ossetia and South Ossetia, which would mean SO joining the Russian Federation and not Georgia.

US foreign policy never makes sense on the face of it using their morals and values... it is only when you cross reference their financial interests that you come up with some sense... it is not their morals or sense of fairness or justice that drives them... it is generally money and revenge.

...not looking so high and mighty anymore. Huge disappointment really.

GarryB wrote:The information I managed to get hold of mentioned that the NSA passed on to Boeing intercepted information from officials of a foreign country that were deciding on the choice between Boeing and Airbus for a major contract... the intercepts revealing several of the officials had an interest in female French companionship and as part of the deal Airbus was happy to oblige.

Now that doesn't effect profits... but having such information gives you several choices including offering a better quality of the product in demand... and I don't mean aircraft, or simply outing the officials and hoping you will win fair and square, or obviously talking to said official and threatening to tell their spouse about their arrangements with Airbus... and probably several other options I have not even considered.

Another use was to determine the final offer of a competitor so that you can make your offer more appealing without offering more than you need to get the contract.

All good points. My thoughts are a bit skewed. If it's fine under US law, but not under international law, what takes precedent? I'd lean towards the former but an argument for the latter is basically just as valid.

GarryB wrote:(BTW I got an A+ for the paper and my lecturer asked to keep it as an example to other students for the future. My Lecturer was in the CIA for several decades and was disappearing to the US to places like West Point to give lectures to the US military)

Well hell, now I wanna read it  

GarryB wrote:if Snowden was releasing info about a Chinese electronic network of spy systems he would be held up as a hero in the west

Not by this guy.

GarryB wrote:It makes US criticism of the terrible abuses of other states towards their citizens seem hollow and empty

Not quite the same thing, given that, according to the available info, this isn't being used to spy on US citizens (bridge for sale, $1000). In that case the US isn't abusing its own citizens, is it?

GarryB wrote:US foreign policy never makes sense

...is all you really needed to say there!

Austin wrote:Industrial Intelligence and Espionage very common , considering the rivalry that Boeing and Airbus has I wont be surprised that NSA would try to get as much information and secrets from Airbus and pass it on to Boeing.

Reminds me of the KGB sending agents to France to take rubber scrapings from runways to figure out how to make whatever Concorde's tires were made of.

All good points. My thoughts are a bit skewed. If it's fine under US law, but not under international law, what takes precedent? I'd lean towards the former but an argument for the latter is basically just as valid.

Echelon didn't cover the US because it would have violated US law.

Not quite the same thing, given that, according to the available info, this isn't being used to spy on US citizens (bridge for sale, $1000). In that case the US isn't abusing its own citizens, is it?

Echelon didn't cover the US but it does cover US citizens in other countries and does not distinguish/check citizenship.

The new systems do cover the US.

The US does not have the right to abuse anyones citizens... self appointed world policeman or not.  

...is all you really needed to say there!

It makes perfect sense only if you follow US interests rather than US morals and standards...

Reminds me of the KGB sending agents to France to take rubber scrapings from runways to figure out how to make whatever Concorde's tires were made of.

Before the British Labour government sold state of the art Derwent and Nene Rolls Royce engines to the Soviets and production rights they showed the Russians around the factories that made them. Special soft sole shoes allowed the Russian delegates collect samples of metal shavings so the metals could be analysed so they knew the metal alloys they needed before the British told them and had material on hand ready for production much faster.

In wake of Snowden scandal , How safe are Russian systems , I mean these guys have penetrated every thing possible and since Internet is USA how can one keep it same from prying eyes of NSA.

What if NSA hacks into says SRF control or into defence establishment and how do we know they havent yet.

Today I read Ecquodor President stating his personal email is already hacked and they have Assang email published.

How about similar penetration of says email account of Putin or other top heads.

So bottom line is how safe are Russian Network from NSA attacks.