How PAK-FA would counter F-22 in future aerial warfare

True performance specs of either F-22 or Su-57 should still be classified - who really believes that Su-57 radar has twice the range of F-22 radar?

Anyway, N036 Byelka radar is 20 years newer than AN/APG-77 - so you naturally expect improvements in performance (if they actually exist).

F-22 will get an MLU in the next few years so expect a few upgrades in the radar - I don't think F-22 has anything to fear from Su-57 just yet.

Hole wrote:Sure, that´s why the F-22 run away from an Su-35S in Syria.

Su-35 runs away from F-22 more like...

When did F-22 run away from F-35?

BlackArrow wrote:

Hole wrote:Sure, that´s why the F-22 run away from an Su-35S in Syria.

Su-35 runs away from F-22 more like...

When did F-22 run away from F-35?

https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-fighter-jets-intercept-u-s-f-22-raptor-flying-over-syria.html

Except that I think thats a F-35 not a F-22.

All those face to face  confrontation between Su-57 and F-22 IMHO forget a basic question.
Where such a confrontation would take place?
For what I know all Raptor bases are in US territory and the one closest to Russia is at Anchorage, Alaska 3000km from Petropavlovsk.
Forward deployment to other bases have proved to be extremely difficult, with less than a single squadron deployed each time, so not such great strategical menace.
In other words the F-22 is actually used more like a substitute for the F-106 than to the F-15 actually still in regular service, that are instead envisioned to be replaced by F-35 or even those F-15X they are a.t.m. just talking about and not by an overseas deployment of F-22.

miketheterrible wrote:

BlackArrow wrote:

Hole wrote:Sure, that´s why the F-22 run away from an Su-35S in Syria.

Su-35 runs away from F-22 more like...

When did F-22 run away from F-35?

https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-fighter-jets-intercept-u-s-f-22-raptor-flying-over-syria.html

Except that I think thats a F-35 not a F-22.

Oh, that "incident."

It doesn't look like either F-22 or F-35 to me. It looks more like a Su-47 if anything...

Why couldn't they have supplied a better picture, or a few moments of the film?

marcellogo wrote:All those face to face  confrontation between Su-57 and F-22 IMHO forget a basic question.
Where such a confrontation would take place?
For what I know all Raptor bases are in US territory and the one closest to Russia is at Anchorage, Alaska 3000km from Petropavlovsk.
Forward deployment to other bases have proved to be extremely difficult, with less than a single squadron deployed each time, so not such great strategical menace.
In other words the F-22 is actually used more like a substitute for the F-106 than to the F-15 actually still in regular service, that are instead envisioned to be replaced by F-35 or even those F-15X they are a.t.m. just talking about and not by an overseas deployment of F-22.

F-2s have been deployed to the Middle East for years now, as well being based in Kadena in Japan. In any case, they are hardly going to deploy anything bigger than a squadon - how many squadrons of Su-35 are there in Syria?

magnumcromagnon wrote:

With stage I engine, F-22 has an edge in dog fighting.[/quote]

LOL!

1.) F-22 with 2D thrust vector engines was beaten by the Rafale (no thrust vectoring) in dog-fighting exercises.




3.) The idea of which aircraft has the advantage engine power is a misleading argument. 2D vector thrust nozzles shave 15% off the thrust off a plane, so the full thrust of the F-22's Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 is 35,000lbs (with afterburner) which losses 5250lbs of thrust because of 2D nozzles, making it a 29,750lb thrust engine.[/quote]

F-22 is a smaller and lighter than Su-57.
Who said Rafale is a poor dogfighter?

BlackArrow wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

BlackArrow wrote:

Hole wrote:Sure, that´s why the F-22 run away from an Su-35S in Syria.

Su-35 runs away from F-22 more like...

When did F-22 run away from F-35?

https://defence-blog.com/news/russian-fighter-jets-intercept-u-s-f-22-raptor-flying-over-syria.html

Except that I think thats a F-35 not a F-22.

Oh, that "incident."

It doesn't look like either F-22 or F-35 to me. It looks more like a Su-47 if anything...

Why couldn't they have supplied a better picture, or a few moments of the film?

Su-47? You have no idea what you are even talking about. May I suggest you get off the internet and go join boy scouts or something? You may end up growing up and maybe developing some critical thinking skills.

With stage I engine, F-22 has an edge in dog fighting.

What is your problem with the stage one engine for the Su-57?

Are you such a fan boy that not the best = the worst ever...

True performance specs of either F-22 or Su-57 should still be classified - who really believes that Su-57 radar has twice the range of F-22 radar?

Anyway, N036 Byelka radar is 20 years newer than AN/APG-77 - so you naturally expect improvements in performance (if they actually exist).

Hahahahahaha... so in first sentence the implication of what you are suggesting is... no body knows but the Russians exaggerate so it can't be as good as they say, and then in the second sentence you say if there is a difference in performance the Russian radar is much newer using technology 20 years newer... hahahahahaha... do you understand what you are saying... 20 years difference is enormous...

F-22 will get an MLU in the next few years so expect a few upgrades in the radar - I don't think F-22 has anything to fear from Su-57 just yet.

So what are they going to update it with they haven't already tried to put in the F-35 that wont even fly in Syrian airspace...

In other words the F-22 is actually used more like a substitute for the F-106 than to the F-15 actually still in regular service, that are instead envisioned to be replaced by F-35 or even those F-15X they are a.t.m. just talking about and not by an overseas deployment of F-22.

Exactly... any hint at a war with Russia or China and those F-22s go back to the US to defend US airspace from Blackjack and Bear launched cruise missiles...

It doesn't look like either F-22 or F-35 to me. It looks more like a Su-47 if anything...

You do know the Su-47 has a forward swept wing and is not in operation over Syria at the moment...

Why couldn't they have supplied a better picture, or a few moments of the film?

Yeah, America is much better at doctoring images than the Russians are... I will give you that.

They had to film those Israeli... oops Iranian special forces putting charges on oil tankers about 10 times before they got the footage they were happy with...

F-2s have been deployed to the Middle East for years now, as well being based in Kadena in Japan. In any case, they are hardly going to deploy anything bigger than a squadon - how many squadrons of Su-35 are there in Syria?

Are F-22s in Japan there to fight ISIS or China?

Which has the bigger air force and will therefore require more aircraft to deal with?

F-22 is a smaller and lighter than Su-57.
Who said Rafale is a poor dogfighter?

The F-22 is not designed for dogfighting... it doesn't even have a helmet mounted sight and its sidewinders need to be projected out of their weapons bay to get a lock on targets before launch.... very unstealthy.

And here we see why NATO is going to fail in its effort to take down Russia. Too many idiots who project fantasy onto Russia and too few sober, intelligent
individuals who can make a difference.

I suggest to NATO fanbois:

1) get an education and become aerospace engineers

2) get a good 10 years of on the job training

Then they will make a contribution to NATO's power but only if they have competent managers who started out on the shop floor and worked they way up
instead of parachuting in from the burger flipper side of the economy.

GarryB wrote:

Hahahahahaha... so in first sentence the implication of what you are suggesting is... no body knows but the Russians exaggerate so it can't be as good as they say, and then in the second sentence you say if there is a difference in performance the Russian radar is much newer using technology 20 years newer... hahahahahaha... do you understand what you are saying... 20 years difference is enormous...

I suspect somebody is exaggerating, they may not even be Russian. And yes, 20 years could well be enormous - don't you think the Russian radar should be an improvement upon the American radar - being 20 years more advanced?

So what are they going to update it with they haven't already tried to put in the F-35 that wont even fly in Syrian airspace... wrote:So what are they going to update it with they haven't already tried to put in the F-35 that wont even fly in Syrian airspace...

Well yeah, F-22 modernisation might be derived from F-35 tech - you mean Israeli F-35s don't fly over Syria - how do you know this, pretty sure you don't. Israeli AF had an air raid on Syria 2 days ago - who knows what type of aircraft were used?

The F-22 is not designed for dogfighting... it doesn't even have a helmet mounted sight and its sidewinders need to be projected out of their weapons bay to get a lock on targets before launch.... very unstealthy. Back to top wrote:

Most of the Russian AF is still armed with R-27 and R-73 from the 1980s, so I doubt if the F-22 is at such a disadvantage.

william.boutros wrote:

Austin wrote:There is no direct sight to fan , There is a Radar Blocker a dynamic one.

In order for the PAK-FA design to fulfill its role as an air superiority fighter defending against F-22:

1- Stage II Engine
2- Better radars that can see F-22 from 40-50 Km ~ or the distance at which an F-22 can spot Pak-FA-
3- Serial production and additional testing

It is not realistic to assume that PAK-FA will operate with the luxury of continual ground radar coverage.

We know nothing about the radar of Su-57, only that is an AESA and has similar characteristics more to AN/APG-81 than to AN/APG-77. The AESA-N050 of Su-57 has around 1500 modules, compared with 1600 of AN/APG-81, so maybe it lacks a few percent, but additional the Su-57 has in both wings a radar in L-Band. And don't forget that the main processing units in the Su-57 are newer and more powerful.

The Su-57 in a confrontation with F-35 or F-22 will see the enemy aircraft first and will have the advantage!

And by the way, the F-22 has no IRST!

Su-35 and Su-57 have both nearly the same weight, so if the first stage engines are good enough for Su-35 they will be good enough for Su-57 too. With second stage engines the Su-57 will become only more efficient and faster.

So the conclusion...
Maybe the AN/APG-81 is a few percent better and the IRST of the F-35 will see a few km further (we still don't know!), but the combination of ALL together makes the Su-57 the clear better aircraft. The Su-57 is not a "Wunderwaffe" it's only a really smart mix of technology now available. No one said it's a "Wunderwaffe", but the concept is clear better and mature compared with F-35 and F-22.

Nobody has shown any evidence that the US is using GaN amp elements in its radars. Russia is clearly moving in this direction. So the sensitivity of any
fielded AESA on the Su-57 will blow away any currently deployed US radar system.

kvs wrote:Nobody has shown any evidence that the US is using GaN amp elements in its radars.

Not on airborne systems sure, but on ground based systems certainly.

BALTIMORE – July 26, 2018 –  Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE: NOC) has delivered the first AN/TPS-80 Ground/Air Task-Oriented Radar (G/ATOR) that incorporates advanced high power and high efficiency gallium nitride (GaN) antenna technology, further improving the system’s operational capabilities. This system was delivered ahead of schedule and is the seventh G/ATOR system delivered in the low rate initial production (LRIP) phase of the program.

https://news.northropgrumman.com/news/releases/northrop-grumman-delivers-first-gallium-nitride-gan-gator-system-to-us-marine-corps

Russia is clearly moving in this direction. So the sensitivity of any
fielded AESA on the Su-57 will blow away any currently deployed US radar system.

Funny...
You do realise that there are no AESA radars fitted to any Russian built fighter aircraft in service at all - never mind GaN radar.

I suspect somebody is exaggerating, they may not even be Russian. And yes, 20 years could well be enormous - don't you think the Russian radar should be an improvement upon the American radar - being 20 years more advanced?

He made several claims and assumptions... I learned nothing from anything he said... none of us did... except that he believes the US propaganda but not Russian propaganda... what a surprise.

Well yeah, F-22 modernisation might be derived from F-35 tech - you mean Israeli F-35s don't fly over Syria - how do you know this, pretty sure you don't. Israeli AF had an air raid on Syria 2 days ago - who knows what type of aircraft were used?

Well if they could fly over Syrian airspace with impunity would it not be rather important to Israel and the US to mention this to other potential F-35 customers?

Indeed why is the US denying Turkey access to the F-35s they paid for and are helping to build to prevent Turkey from operating F-35s in the same airspace as Turkeys new S-400s are operating?

I mean if Israeli F35s are operating over Syria with Russian S-400 and S-300V4 as well as Syrian S-300PMU2 systems, then why would they care about Turkish F-35s operating near Turkish S-400s... unless they are afraid that Turkey might realise how stealthy their F-35s actually are and that they might not be worth 120 million each...

I notice the Russians are not demanding that China and India and Turkey don't operate their S-400 systems where F-35s might be operating... in case the F-35s collect all of those S-400 secrets...

Most of the Russian AF is still armed with R-27 and R-73 from the 1980s, so I doubt if the F-22 is at such a disadvantage.

And that is the kicker... because the R-27 and R-73 are fully off boresight capable, and all Russian MiG-29s and MiG-35s and Flanker family aircraft have helmet mounted cueing systems to use them... I believe the US got such capabilities for some of their aircraft earlier this century... 20 years after it was standard on Soviet fighters.

Nobody has shown any evidence that the US is using GaN amp elements in its radars. Russia is clearly moving in this direction. So the sensitivity of any
fielded AESA on the Su-57 will blow away any currently deployed US radar system.

The problem of being at the leading edge is that you spend all the money developing new technology, but sooner or later newer technology that is better becomes available.

Needless to say there are two main consequences... the US certainly has more mature AESA technology and it is in service because they love to spend money, so it was never going to be a problem, but the Russians can start with better technology, which also gives them advantages too, and their technology base should see them right for all sorts of improvements and ways to use these new systems to the best of their ability...

You do realise that there are no AESA radars fitted to any Russian built fighter aircraft in service at all - never mind GaN radar.

They have had PESA and newer hybrids in service for over 40 years... AESA has a lot of good features, but probably the most useful is the electronic scanning, which the PESA radars also have, but without the cost.

look look we got AESA on aircrafts before the Russians...….And the mig-31 was the 1st to field a phased array radar.

look look we got radar exchanging capabilities with this advanced network to share information definitely better than the SU-57...… And the mig-31 was the 1st to operationally use radar data exchanging capabilities in the 1980s until the US acquired the same capabilities in the late 1990s.

look look we have this HAWC missile sticking out the F-35..... And the Mig-31 received the same hypersonic capabilities but the difference being the F-35 compromises the purpose it was built for.

So what is the most important lessons we have learned from these examples? Some have their moments to shine, while others don't. For example SAAB, the US and Russia are introducing GaN AESA MMICs for their airborne EW systems. The Russians although have introduced those EW based systems 5 years ago  are now interested in trying to use FICs for their ROFAR EW capabilities. The US and Europe is serious about using photonics for their military but have shown poor results, while Russians have received higher than normal performance results. And next thing you know they might have a photonic based radar before the west can field them to their airborne systems. They have shined before with the mig-31, the soviet union collapsed, now they are back working hard to still succeed. So lets all stop this childish shit of ooh ooh I got this 1st as a proposed argument to think you have an edge on a rival based aircraft, this isn't f-16.net.

miketheterrible wrote:

Looks great

Looks like it has RAM applied to it...I guess that's what the serial ones will look like

BlackArrow wrote:
Funny...
You do realise that there are no AESA radars fitted to any Russian built fighter aircraft in service at all - never mind GaN radar.

You do realize that Electronics is yesterday technology , and there are much more interesting
and much more advanced things in the planet?

Photonics Radars > Electronic radars..

If Russia military is to be believed ,they are already working with photonics radars..
this are radars that don't operate in the Radio waves spectrum.. like AESA radars..
but instead in the Light spectrum.. And light base communications can't be intercepted as radio waves can..
is very complicated new form of communications.. Imagine a wireless communication that use lasers instead of a radio wave.. then you get an idea , the circuits are no longer in copper wires,using resistors and transistors and capacitors....the Big Next thing after advanced electronics.. is Photonic communications..

This is very super advanced things.. because for example , with the new photonic scanners ,, Russia will have
the capabilities to see and detect not only the plane flying in airspace.. but also see the people inside and see their faces in a 3d form.. the best way to understand it ..is an X-ray radar.. that doctors use to scan inside
people bodies from the outside and can detect any detail inside of it.. if it have guns hidden or not.. or if the man suffer from any fracture of its bones ,or if it is women or man.. But photonics communications is even more advanced. and this is what russia is working.. Russia claims that their photonic radars they working
will have the capability to detect any stealth plane in total secrecy ,passively without them knowing they have been detected. So is a form of Passive radar ,that nothing escape ,and that you can't jam ,or hack or interfere.

So think about the possibilities of such technology for military purposes or to counter terrorism..
The Russia military will have superman "x-ray like" view of terrorist inside a civilian plane or a building..
and will be able to shoot at them a direct hit on their head ,with precision with high caliber weapons without wounding civilians. and without the terrorist knowing they have been spotted.. Another interesting thing
Russia claims can already do.. is using this advance energy transmission weapons ,to kill pilots inside their planes ,without firing a bullet.. or disable /damage their bombs.. So imagine that for a second.. that
Russia military aims an energy cannon and literary fry/burn the electronics..inside a Combat plane in the air.. without firing a missile ,or using a laser weapon, so this is very huge changing technology what Russia is working.. According to KRET.. the company behind Russia electronic warfare , they working in an radiomagnetic energy weapon that can disable satellites in space.. and supposedly they will have the first prototypes for 2020.
they also working in disabling planes in flight and killing their pilots from distance.. So he can jam all he wants..
the energy attack will not miss.. and the pilot will not know what happened to him.. other that suddenly will feel extremely ill ,and even kill him.. This is why Russia 6th generation plane after Su-57 , will be without a pilot,
Russia energy weapons are so dangerous ,that cant be operated near humans, ,it can kill you too ,if you
are close to it..

So forget about F-22 Aesa radars.. Russia is working in far superior technology than that.. 3d photonic radars
that provides a Visual image of the zone being scanned..and it can even shown people faces ,flying inside
a combat or civilian plane ,and reveal if the plane have dangerous weapons inside.. or hidden nukes..
Same things with autos , Terrorist will no longer will be able to hide their bombs inside cars.. they will be detected their bombs from miles away ..and even neutralize terrorist before they get close to them..

article from 2018...

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/stealth-killer-russias-sixth-generation-fighter-might-have-radio-photonic-radar-25361

Vann7 wrote:

BlackArrow wrote:
Funny...
You do realise that there are no AESA radars fitted to any Russian built fighter aircraft in service at all - never mind GaN radar.

You do realize that Electronics is yesterday technology , and  there are much more interesting
and much more advanced things in the planet?

Photonics Radars > Electronic radars..

If Russia military is to be believed ,they are already working with photonics radars..
...

Do you realize that photonic radar ist still an electronic component of the aircraft? Only one part of signal processing is using photonics!

Photonic Radar ist not Quantum Radar!!! Photonic radar is still jammable...has a lower range in some case, due to use of a wider bandwidth...processing needs real calculation power...etc.

Quantum radar is using concept of quantum entanglement which is Photonics.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

miketheterrible wrote:Quantum radar is using concept of quantum entanglement which is Photonics.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

Yeah...

Both rely on the same technology, but quantum entanglement is a little bit more complicated, than only photonic radar. It will take 20-30 years to make quantum radar mature for normal use (from my point of view). Quantum radar are not jammable and the range will increase dramatic. This kind of radar will change modern warfare complete, leaving stealth complete useless. But know one knows than it will be ready...5 years or 100 years!?

Quantum entanglement is really phantastic, because you can "break" physical law. Nothing can be faster than light! If something is faster than light it travels back in past, this is true for materia and information in general. If you create a pair of particel or a beam and send them far far far away from each other, the entanglement works instantly...meaning it works faster than light. Scientist said in past that it is not possible to send a information via entanglement, thus not violating known physical law. And now we are at the point sending "information" via entanglement, nothing else is quantum radar technology. We observe what happens to radar photon not by observing the photon, we observe his entangled brother....really fascinating. Most don't realize what quantum radar really means.

From my view it's possible to sent instantly information without sending it back to the past!