Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

akd wrote:I just did.  He stopped updating that site a long time ago.

Please feel free to provide an original source for the report if you don't think Fofanov's doubts raise concerns about its veracity.  Everything I can find on this report points back to Fofanov's website, except some vague references to the original source being a post in a Russian language forum.

Mike E wrote:
Figured that, and it seems like a good option both economically and militarily... Why are the T-80's going to get chopped when the T-72 is technically older?

Vympel wrote:

Mike E wrote:
Figured that, and it seems like a good option both economically and militarily... Why are the T-80's going to get chopped when the T-72 is technically older?

That depends on what T-72 and what T-80 you're talking about. The T-80B series is not newer than the T-72B series by any significant degree. T-72Bs were built right up to the end of the USSR (and beyond I believe). The Russian force is clearly being rationalised to T-72B tanks - distinct from say T-72A tanks which you never see nowadays, and which are probably being exported to fight in Syria or something.

EDIT: only a comparative handful of T-80Us exist. T-80UDs built in Ukraine have been withdrawn.

Mike E wrote:
No matter how you look at it, they are both of the same generation of MBT's. - If they retire some of the T-80's (in this case all of them) why not retire some T-72's along with it? I'm confused on why they'd retire the T-80 and not both when they are of the same age... The only explanation I can think of is that the T-72 is has more modified variants, but that's it...  The gas-guzzling problem could be fixed with a new, and/or upgraded engine and transmission etc.

TR1 wrote:

Mike E wrote:
No matter how you look at it, they are both of the same generation of MBT's. - If they retire some of the T-80's (in this case all of them) why not retire some T-72's along with it? I'm confused on why they'd retire the T-80 and not both when they are of the same age... The only explanation I can think of is that the T-72 is has more modified variants, but that's it...  The gas-guzzling problem could be fixed with a new, and/or upgraded engine and transmission etc.

What part is confusing? The logic is rationalization of the tank fleet, that is basically it.
Russia has more tanks that it needs, especially with increased emphasis on ready formations vs vast war stocks.
Taking out parts of both tank fleets is pointless. You might as well get rid of one entirely and not complicate future operations. Simplifying your technical diversity is always a good thing.  

There is no question of age- the T-80 is a fine tank (in fact you could easily argue it is better than T-72B without any upgrades). However the gas issue is there. Changing engine and transmission, well, you do not have a T-80 anymore, since it is very much designed to use a compact gas turbine. What other option is there, to buy 6TD from Ukraine ? It is costly, there is no project to do so, and at the end of the day you might as well Kapremont a T-72 from storage (or even upgrade it, would probably cost no less then switching the T-80s turbine out) and slim your tank force down to one less vehicle.

George1 wrote:I have a question. Russian tank troops wear the standard Russian ground forces green beret or black beret??

TR1 wrote:1.) There are less than 500 T-90s- and far from all of them are T-90As. Some are early T-90s from the 1990s.
2.) There won't be anywhere near 2000 T-14s by 2020, let's be realistic. That might be the eventual goal but it is more long term.
3.) They are going to continue with the T-72B3(?) modernization, but supposedly this upcoming year it will be the "Biathlon" model with the panoramic sight, new engine, transmission etc. I am mixed on this- the upgrade is fairly thorough but one wonders how expensive it is. Also they are paying for tanks that have essentially no improvement on protection from T-72s made in 1989...25 years ago.
4.) Mind you they are withdrawing the T-80 from the inventory, so the "new" T-72s are not indicative of any increase in tank strength.

By the time the Armata MBT numbers are filled out the oldest T-90s and T-72s will be ripe for withdrawal.
Potentially there will be a large stock of used, cheap T-72s with a decent fire control system....especially if they can put a decent protection package on it, might be a good export item.

Kimppis wrote:

2300 sure is an impressive number, but according to an interview that was posted here like a month ago (?) that's what they are seriously planning, by 2020. And the re-armament program is on schedule atm, so... Not that I know anything about their tank production capability. Still, it would make perfect sense to have over 2000 new thanks when they are planning to re-equip 70% of the army as a whole.

GarryB wrote:Keep in mind that the armata is not just a heavy tank, it is also an APC and command vehicle etc etc...

In a brigade structure of the hundreds of vehicles only about 30 vehicles will be MBTs and the rest will have other purposes. this means that of 2000 armatas made by 2020 perhaps 200-300 might be MBT versions.

George1 wrote:

translation of some key points of this interview :

Nothing specific was said. Since its still classified for the most part, he didn't reveal any details. He confirmed what is already known:

- will definitely be shown on May 9th Victory Day parade. There is also a chance it will be shown in September at an arms expo.
- very high crew survivability
- tons of automation
- brand new design as a whole: suspension, armor, various systems
- advanced targeting systems

Armata is expected to be given to the army in 2017. Per presidents orders the Armata MBT's production will roughly number in 2300 units, with productions running into year 2020. This is just the MBT numbers, not counting all the other new armor fighting vehicles and etc.
The rest of the interview is about the armor industry as a whole around the world. Indian partnership is going very smooth, lots of technology being licensed both ways, his corporation is helping India on their own Arjun tank upgrades and production. He talks about the homegrown operations - his corporation has come a long way, able to combine their efforts with other companies at home. They are now able to produce 10x more units than before, lots of money being put towards more R&D and future investments into the operation.

Mentions Ukraine, the interviewer asks what the Ukrainian tank factories state will be after this whole ordeal. His company is not affected, or the whole homegrown operation. Majority of the parts were being supplied from Russia to Ukraine to build some of the components. All production issues will be mitigated and produced at home.

In general the company is very active around the world, took on more orders at home and abroad than ever before and will continue to increase capacity and production numbers.

franco wrote:

George1 wrote:Can anyone give us info about how many battle tanks are in service now with Russian ground forces?

T-90:~500
T-80:~100
T-72B2/B3:~750
T-72B/BA:~1,200

The only unit that for sure still uses the T-80BV is the 18th MGA division, totals would include Coastal units under Navy control. Only a couple hundred T-80 were modernized, so rest would be in reserve. As far as I'm aware there were around 7-8,000 total T-72B's produced, so would expect that to be the cut off point for reserves.

flamming_python wrote:Don't know where those numbers come from. Last ones I heard, there are over 1000 T-90 variants in service.