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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    arpakola
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  arpakola Thu May 22, 2014 10:00 am

    AirCargo wrote:New York Times-Europe

    Solidarity Eludes Ukraine Separatist Groups as Presidential Election Nears


    By ANDREW ROTH and DAVID M. HERSZENHORNMAY 21, 2014

    DONETSK, Ukraine — With a critical presidential election looming on Sunday, rifts are appearing among the patchwork of separatist groups that have seized control of public buildings in numerous cities in southeastern Ukraine.

    In an interview on Wednesday, a rebel politician in Slovyansk said he did not recognize the authority of the self-proclaimed government of the Donetsk region and suggested he could use force to seize control.  Vyacheslav Ponomaryov, the self-declared mayor of the city of Slovyansk, where Ukrainian troops and anti-Kiev militias have engaged in sporadic fighting for several weeks, said that there was no contact between him and the new republic’s government and suggested he could order the city’s paramilitary groups to “restore order” in Donetsk.  “We are here fighting, and they are sitting around stuffing themselves,” Mr. Ponomaryov said by telephone from the city, which has been surrounded by Ukrainian military checkpoints and is in a region where shelling and shootouts have occurred in recent weeks. “It’s not a difference of opinion,” he said. “We have fundamentally opposing views.”

    Mr. Ponomaryov’s statements suggested open hostility between Donetsk, where the Donetsk People’s Republic declared autonomy from Kiev after organizing a referendum this month, and several heavily armed stronghold cities to the northwest.   But with armed groups in Slovyansk and elsewhere under the control of a shadowy military commander named Igor Strelkov, it was not immediately clear that Mr. Ponomaryov’s denunciation of his fellow revolutionaries carried any real weight.

    The separatist groups were knocked off balance earlier this month when President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia announced his intention to withdraw tens of thousands of Russian troops from the Ukrainian border, recommended that Ukraine solve its political problems through dialogue, and even gave tacit backing to the presidential election. Whether they can maintain their previous momentum without the implicit military and political backing of the Kremlin remains to be seen.

    Mr. Ponomaryov’s statements came as Ukraine’s provisional government has tried to cobble together support and improve the chances of a legitimate vote on Sunday. At a round-table session in the southern city of Mykolaiv, representatives of the Kiev government received a generally warm reception amid what seemed to be broad support for the talks, which are intended to help resolve the political crisis.  Mykola P. Romanchuk, the governor of the Mykolaiv region, praised the effort at dialogue. “The right way to solve any problems — economic, judicial and, today, political,” Mr. Romanchuk said, “we need to solve at the round table.”  The atmosphere was notably lighter than at the previous session in the eastern city of Kharkiv, where officials from the embattled region at times openly questioned the motives and even the legitimacy of the provisional government.

    Officials described Sunday’s presidential election as critical to Ukraine’s moving forward after the recent months of unrest. The acting prime minister, Arseniy P. Yatsenyuk, said the government was working steadily to carry out a series of structural changes, including constitutional amendments, and a decentralization plan that will give greater budget authority to local officials.  Mr. Yatsenyuk said the government was also committed to tightening ties with Europe through formal political and trade agreements. “We have no other way,” he said. Mr. Yatsenyuk also sounded optimistic about the east, collectively known as Donbass, where he said separatist groups were clearly weakened.  “In the last few days, the situation in Donbass has turned around,” Mr. Yatsenyuk said. “The self-proclaimed Donbass republics will control neither Donbass nor Ukraine. I can call it an achievement of our common efforts.”  In a visit to a military base located near the city of Slovyansk, Oleksandr V. Turchynov, Ukraine’s acting president, told local news media that Kiev’s military campaign against the rebel groups was entering its “final phase” and vowed to “cleanse the Donetsk and Lugansk regions of terrorists.”

    Denis Pushilin, the speaker for the revolutionary republic’s parliament based in Donetsk, denounced the military campaign and said that if it continued it could provoke a military response from Russia.  Speaking in his office on the 10th floor of the seized regional administration building in Donetsk, Mr. Pushilin on Wednesday denied any rift between himself and Mr. Ponomaryov.  He said that Mr. Ponomaryov had received “incorrect information” because the military blockade of the city had hampered communications, which could be monitored by the Ukrainian military.  But Mr. Pushilin said that relations remained strong with Mr. Strelkov, who he said controlled all the paramilitary groups in the region.

    Ukrainian media outlets, many of them openly hostile to anti-Kiev forces in the east, have reported that heightened tensions have led to arguments and even armed clashes among rebel commanders in several cities.  Both Mr. Pushilin and Mr. Ponomaryov denied that serious fighting had taken place.

    On Tuesday, several military trucks with armed men bearing a Russian flag sped into Donetsk from the north and surrounded the headquarters of the Ukrainian Security Service, which has been occupied by members of a Donetsk-based militia. Sentries dressed in military fatigues and armed with automatic rifles were posted at crossroads leading to the building, and city police officers prevented pedestrians from entering the area.  A guard, who did not give his name but identified himself as a second lieutenant in the army of the Donetsk People’s Republic, said they had come from the city of Horlivka, which is located to the north of Donetsk, in order to “instill order” among members of a local militia.  “There is no discipline” among them, he said, adding that the local militias were “unprofessional” and had not been registered. “Horlivka made the revolution.”
    Andrew Roth reported from Donetsk, and David M. Herszenhorn from Kiev, Ukraine.

    "In an interview on Wednesday, a rebel politician in Slovyansk said he.."

    well... do we need to argue any further on the issue?
    arpakola
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 Empty Боевика, расстреливавшего людей в Одессе, отправили под домашний арест

    Post  arpakola Thu May 22, 2014 10:01 am

    Боевика, расстреливавшего людей в Одессе, отправили под домашний арест
    http://www.dnrnovosti.com/2014/05/blog-post_881.html

    Под домашний арест отпустил суд Одессы активиста Евромайдана Сергея Ходиака, который подозревается в стрельбе из охотничьего ружья по милиционерам, демонстрантам и прохожим 2 мая. 2 мая в Одессе шесть человек получили смертельные ранения из огнестрельного оружия.
    Ещё пятеро были ранены дробью из охотничьего оружия, напоминает ИТАР-ТАСС. После беспорядков задержаны 12 человек, заведены уголовные дела по шести статьям Уголовного кодекса Украины.
    Беспорядки в Одессе начались с марша, устроенного приехавшими из Киева экстремистами "Правого сектора", самообороной Майдана и футбольными фанатами из Харькова. Они подожгли палаточный городок на Куликовом поле.
    Находившиеся на Куликовом поле сборщики подписей за проведение референдума о федерализации Украины и наделении русского языка статусом государственного укрылись в Доме профсоюзов. Дом профсоюзов нападавшие подожгли коктейлями Молотова.
    В беспорядках от огня, отравления хлороформом, огнестрельных ранений и бит погибли 48 человек, 247 — пострадали. Ряд украинских политиков заявлял, что киевские власти сознательно занижают число жертв. По некоторым данным, погибших может быть до 116 человек.
    По словам начальника Главного следственного управления МВД Украины Виталия Сакала, для расследования беспорядков в Одессе создана следственно-оперативная группа из 200 человек, привлечены иностранные эксперты.
    Между тем, в одесских СМИ опубликованы фото- и видеоматериалы, которые свидетельствуют о том, что в ходе беспорядков Сергей Ходиак действительно стрелял в людей, в том числе сотрудников правоохранительных органов, из обреза охотничьего ружья.
    Одесский областной совет в середине мая запретил пребывание на территории области незаконных вооруженных формирований.
    "Радикалов не должно быть на улицах — это мое отношение к "Правому сектору". Я считаю эту группу заранее полностью финансированной какими-то людьми с какими-то определенными целями. Везде, где они появлялись, были только провокации", — заявил губернатор области Игорь Палица.
    Убрать из Одессы присланных из Киева боевиков "Правого сектора" требовал и уволенный после беспорядков начальник одесской милиции Петр Луцюк.
    "В Киеве собралось большое количество людей, которые остались без присмотра, было принято решение направить эти формирования в Одессу. Мы в этом не нуждаемся. Они приехали и создают нестабильную ситуацию", — выступил 4 мая перед депутатами областного совета Петр Луцюк.
    Он также проинформировал о конфликтах, возникающих у радикалов с одесситами, а также об обнаруженном милицией складе, на который они завезли оружие и боеприпасы.
    Присутствие экстремистов в городе необходимо, "чтобы контролировать милицию", утверждает назначенный Киевом прежний губернатор области Владимир Немировский.
    Приехавший в Одессу секретарь Совбеза Украины Андрей Парубий встретился с боевиками и передал им бронежилеты и другое снаряжение.  

    ==============================

    http://lifenews.ru/news/133637
    Бойцы Коломойского атаковали военнослужащих за отказ воевать35 военнослужащих ранены в результате карательной операции боевиков, приехавших в украинское село Благодатное на машинах "Приватбанка".

    В селе Благодатном Донецкой области, что на российско-украинской границе, произошло вооруженное столкновение. На лагерь украинских военных напали боевики из Киева. Они действовали при поддержке бронетехники и боевых вертолетов. Часть из них прибыли на место на машинах "Приватбанка".

    Столкновение произошло в районе блокпоста между поселками Благодатное и Ольгинка. Как сообщил источник в РОВД Волновахского района, обстрелу подвергся блокпост украинской армии.

    По словам местных жителей, ставших очевидцами нападения, неизвестные, приехавшие на инкассаторских машинах "Приватбанка" и двух джипах, открыли огонь по украинским военным, отказавшимся ранее стрелять по мирным жителям.

    – Жители Благодатного встали на защиту своих домов. Солдатам нацгвардии приказали подавить сопротивление. Те отказались стрелять в людей, и в итоге их наказали, – говорит источник в штабе командования самообороны.

    По данным собеседника, это была карательная операция по заказу олигарха Игоря Коломойского – владельца "Приватбанка", известного тем, что он финансировал протесты на Майдане и выплачивал вознаграждения бойцам "Правого сектора".

    Нацгвардия попыталась оказать сопротивление нападавшим, но тех поддержала бронетехника и военные вертолеты. Один из снарядов, выпущенный боевой машиной, попал в склад боеприпасов. В результате взрыва пострадали по меньшей мере 35 человек.

    =============================


    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 1418338

    =================================

    http://rt.com/politics/160468-russia-zyuganov-ukraine-symonenko/
    Russian leftists blasts Kiev plans to ban Ukrainian Communist Party
    Russia’s KPRF has attacked plans of the acting Ukrainian president to ban the Communist party in the country, as a threat to all leftist and patriotic forces, and says such a step is typical of fascist regimes of the past.

    “All fascist regimes in the world started their activities with a ban on Communist parties. Such threats are a threat to all leftist popular and patriotic forces,” the leader of Russian Communists, Gennady Zyuganov, said at a roundtable in the State Duma on Wednesday.

    Zyuganov said the Communist Party of the Russian Federation had prepared a draft motion against the attempts to ban the Communist Party of Ukraine, and would submit it to the Lower House in the near future.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  Vann7 Thu May 22, 2014 10:37 am

    Please don't post anything from the New York TImes.. Or any other Neocons media. They are part of the problem of what happens in Ukraine ,the disinformation war. The leadership in DOnetsk and Lugansk was NOT self imposed.. it was elected by an assembly ,so if any police disagree with the authority all he needs to do participate in the next elections that will happen later to elect a permanent ministers. The leadership in Eastern part of Ukraine is temporary and anyone can participate in the next elections.  Neither Force ,violence or terror was used to choose the leadership in the east . Force was only used to siege buildings most of them took by unarmed people. But once buildings were taken , the
    temporary leadership was elected by vote.  What is clear is the the New York Times and all the jewish mafia elite media they control are trying to divide the local forces fighting the illegitimate Kiev authorities. But even if the report is a selective fact.. with misleading information something very classic of Zionist media , The opinion of one policeman means nothing.  The referendum numbers in donetsk shows 2.3 millions support the independence and only 200,000 about 10% wanted to remain with kiev.  So no one said it was 100% support
    that never happens in any election ,anywhere but overwhelming majority in the east to not want to be ruled by NAZis that always
    siege power through coups and never legally.  The coup early in 2014 ,was not the first one.. the same people tried several coups before
    in the past.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Thu May 22, 2014 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Thu May 22, 2014 12:02 pm

    National guard column/blockpost with 3 BMP and a BTR was attacked and essentially destroyed.
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    Post  As Sa'iqa Thu May 22, 2014 12:03 pm

    ...with at least 8 killed and 20 wounded, maybe 11 killed and 30 wounded
    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola Thu May 22, 2014 12:42 pm

    Командир украинской бригады: Нападавшие были проплаченыПредставитель командующего состава военнослужащих, атакованных в селе Благодатном, уверен, что против них действовали наемники.

    http://lifenews.ru/news/133650

     По словам одного из командующих командного состава 51-й бригады украинских вооруженных сил, вооруженные люди приехали 22 мая на нескольких машинах и открыли огонь без предупреждения. В результате этого нападения погибли 15 украинских солдат. По меньшей мере 35 человек ранены.

    – Это были наемники, подготовленные, "лупили" они профессионально, – рассказывает командир атакованной 51-й бригады. - Наши открыли огонь в ответ. Одну их машину сожгли. Они в итоге расстреляли три боевых машины пехоты и две санитарных таблетки, УАЗ. Со слов очевидцев, собрали в кучу ребят, заставили тех, кто мог, поднять руки за голову.

    По словам украинского военного, солдаты были застигнуты врасплох, но сумели дать отпор:

    – Наши успели открыть огонь в ответ. Одну машину сожгли. Нападавшие стреляли из гранатометов и пулеметов. Они были хорошо подготовлены к нападению на блокпост. Сто процентов проплачены кем-то были. Кем, я не знаю.

    По словам местных жителей, ставших очевидцами нападения, неизвестные, приехавшие на инкассаторских машинах "Приватбанка" и двух джипах, открыли огонь по украинским военным, отказавшимся ранее стрелять по мирным жителям.

    – Жители Благодатного встали на защиту своих домов. Украинским солдатам приказали подавить сопротивление. Те отказались стрелять в людей, и в итоге их наказали, – говорит источник в штабе командования самообороны.

    По данным собеседника, это была карательная операция по заказу олигарха Игоря Коломойского – владельца "Приватбанка", известного тем, что он финансировал протесты на майдане и выплачивал вознаграждения бойцам "Правого сектора".

     

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 BSdm-aLPTYM
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 WzcHyHXIeqY

    medo
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    Post  medo Thu May 22, 2014 2:17 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFGbaKKfzf4

    What is more interesting is, that this army unit was also attacked by Ukrainian helicopters and you could see them launching flares. There were no destroyed Privat bank vehicles, but BMPs. It seems, they were first attacked by helicopters to destroy BMPs and than by nazi groups, that soldiers could net defend themselves with BMPs. I wonder if now similar Ukrainian army units will now fire on any helicopter flying around, just to be sure and for any case, if...
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    Post  macedonian Thu May 22, 2014 4:19 pm

    medo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFGbaKKfzf4

    What is more interesting is, that this army unit was also attacked by Ukrainian helicopters and you could see them launching flares. There were no destroyed Privat bank vehicles, but BMPs. It seems, they were first attacked by helicopters to destroy BMPs and than by nazi groups, that soldiers could net defend themselves with BMPs. I wonder if now similar Ukrainian army units will now fire on any helicopter flying around, just to be sure and for any case, if...

    From the beginning of this tragicomedy that the US cooked up in Ukraine, I feel sorry for the regular Ukrainian soldiers.
    They seem to know who the real enemy is, and it ain't the people which are quite similar to them, that's why they cannot bring themselves to kill the locals when ordered to...not that Russia is blameless in this whole mess, far from it!

    But picture yourself in their (the regular Ukr soldiers') position: Poorly fed, poorly trained, conscripted to fight a war against the people they feel they are same with. Refuse to obey orders, and the very best thing you can hope for is a Court Marshal...getting shot on the spot for being 'not-patriotic-enough' is more likely.
    So what the fcuk do you do?! Well, some obviously prefer dying to killing innocents. I really respect and admire them for that. Truly brave men.
    arpakola
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    Post  arpakola Thu May 22, 2014 4:28 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    medo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFGbaKKfzf4

    What is more interesting is, that this army unit was also attacked by Ukrainian helicopters and you could see them launching flares. There were no destroyed Privat bank vehicles, but BMPs. It seems, they were first attacked by helicopters to destroy BMPs and than by nazi groups, that soldiers could net defend themselves with BMPs. I wonder if now similar Ukrainian army units will now fire on any helicopter flying around, just to be sure and for any case, if...

    From the beginning of this tragicomedy that the US cooked up in Ukraine, I feel sorry for the regular Ukrainian soldiers.
    They seem to know who the real enemy is, and it ain't the people which are quite similar to them, that's why they cannot bring themselves to kill the locals when ordered to...not that Russia is blameless in this whole mess, far from it!

    But picture yourself in their (the regular Ukr soldiers') position: Poorly fed, poorly trained, conscripted to fight a war against the people they feel they are same with. Refuse to obey orders, and the very best thing you can hope for is a Court Marshal...getting shot on the spot for being 'not-patriotic-enough' is more likely.
    So what the fcuk do you do?! Well, some obviously prefer dying to killing innocents. I really respect and admire them for that. Truly brave men.

    Ιn cases like those .. just not obey orders is a disaster.
    There is no nutrality in civil wars. So called nutrals suffer most cusalties.
    Taking the right side would save them..
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu May 22, 2014 4:32 pm

    As cruel as it sounds, but those soldiers had it coming.

    Just from the first days' laws, embracing NAZI ideology, everyone could've easily figure out what kind of people junta is.

    So, what prevented the army from marching to Kiev, and overthrowing the junta? Conformity, wish to come out dry out of this, I really struggle to find any other answer.

    That's also the case for soldiers, who didn't want to obey orders, but also didn't want to mutiny as well. And died soldiers of this outpost really have to blame nothing but themselves for such a wishful thinking.


    --------------------------
    Lukashenko : I will fight , even if it is Putin

    President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko criticized the separatists organized a referendum in Ukraine and Russia is no longer warns over former Soviet territory after the annexation of the Crimea , Russian media reported .

    " Ukraine must be united and indivisible state. And east and west of Ukraine ", - said Lukashenko interview , which was published on Wednesday evening television channel " dosage " ( " Rain " ) .

    According to Lukashenko , he is fighting any invaders , including Russian President Vladimir Putin . "No matter what beateitų Belarusian lands, I will fight , even if it will be Putin ," said the Belarusian authoritarian leader .

    Since 1994, when Lukashenko was elected president of Belarus constantly claims to be the closest neighboring Russian ally .

    But in Belarus , which is dependent on Moscow cheap energy resources and serves as a buffer zone between Russia and NATO , the manager often says nesilankstysiąs its citizens than Russia or the West .

    The two eastern regions of Ukraine on 11 May pro-Russian separatist organize referendums " legally irrelevant " - said Lukashenko .

    Russia annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in March , following a referendum which Kiev and the West as illegal .

    Lukashenka's statements could increase pressure on Putin to distance themselves from the pro-Russian separatist militants who threaten to disrupt Sunday upcoming Ukrainian presidential election.

    While being economically dependent on Russia Lukashenko affect Moscow as Putin is an important partner to create a Eurasian economic union , consisting of a number of former Soviet republics .

    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/a-lukasenka-kovosiu-net-jei-tai-bus-putinas.d?id=64855545#ixzz32SJNSc7R


    Good cop-bad cop, you say?  Wink


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 5:10 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  macedonian Thu May 22, 2014 4:35 pm

    arpakola wrote:
    macedonian wrote:From the beginning of this tragicomedy that the US cooked up in Ukraine, I feel sorry for the regular Ukrainian soldiers.
    They seem to know who the real enemy is, and it ain't the people which are quite similar to them, that's why they cannot bring themselves to kill the locals when ordered to...not that Russia is blameless in this whole mess, far from it!

    But picture yourself in their (the regular Ukr soldiers') position: Poorly fed, poorly trained, conscripted to fight a war against the people they feel they are same with. Refuse to obey orders, and the very best thing you can hope for is a Court Marshal...getting shot on the spot for being 'not-patriotic-enough' is more likely.
    So what the fcuk do you do?! Well, some obviously prefer dying to killing innocents. I really respect and admire them for that. Truly brave men.

    Ιn cases like those .. just not obey orders is a disaster.
    There is no nutrality in civil wars. So called nutrals suffer most cusalties.
    Taking the right side would save them..

    I agree in full !
    That's why many of them 'defected' to the side of the people. Most of the rest would've too, I think, but they were too afraid to do it.
    Stuck between a rock and a hard place these guys. Can't say I envy them.

    etaepsilonk wrote:As cruel as it sounds, but those soldiers had it coming.
    Just from the first days' laws, embracing NAZI ideology, everyone could've easily figure out what kind of people junta is.
    Really?!
    And where the fcuk do YOU live?!
    Know how a civil war looks like? Seen it first hand?!
    No, you're wrong, it doesn't sound cruel - IT REEKS OF UTTER STUPIDITY!
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu May 22, 2014 4:45 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    Really?!
    And where the fcuk do YOU live?!
    Know how a civil war looks like? Seen it first hand?!
    No, you're wrong, it doesn't sound cruel - IT REEKS OF UTTER STUPIDITY!


    I really have no interest in encouraging your PMS posts.
    My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 4:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  macedonian Thu May 22, 2014 4:52 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    macedonian wrote:
    Really?!
    And where the fcuk do YOU live?!
    Know how a civil war looks like? Seen it first hand?!
    No, you're wrong, it doesn't sound cruel - IT REEKS OF UTTER STUPIDITY!


    I really have no interest in encouraging your PMS posts.
    Congratulations!
    You are the VERY FIRST person I've ever downvoted on this forum!
    Now, if you don't have any more of that dubious intelligence to spread around, I suggest we keep commenting on the situation in Ukraine here.
    Sounds fair to you?! Or is it too much of a PMS?!
    You kids are in for a surprise when you marry, I'll tell you that much.
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    Post  Vann7 Thu May 22, 2014 4:52 pm

    There are reports of about 250 armored cars lining up for an invasion with National guard and right sector near Slaviansk..
    For a massive invasion on the city. and others in Lugansk... to. Their estimate is more than 6,000 soldiers in Lugansk alone.
    This looks like a really bad thing.. They better blockade the entrance to the cities with heavy old trucks.  Its quite possible
    that the Kiev nazi junta is planning to risk everything now before the elections.. Because after the elections ,if there is bloodshed
    and many civilians killed , then the new government will be blamed for it.  

    IT looks like NATO will push for a major war provocation against Russia..since Biden is in Romania ,not for tourism but probably to lure them to provoke Russia. so Russia better start looking which targets to hit in case a war start.. and they attacked.. and threaten NATO with a full scale war against them if they dare to attack Russia ,that they forced to invade because Ukraine start a genocide against Civilians.
    we will see.. But im confident that sometimes war is the only way to achieve peace.. Imagine if Russia do not declare war to Georgia
    when they attacked. Will have been not only bad for their own security ,because will teach others countries that they can attack Russia..and get away with it.  So i still think will have been better to see the war to start with Syria.. Syria have enough Yakhonts missiles to defeat US navy at their shores. AFter US navy wiped and humiliated the American Public Tolerance for more interferences will end ,and will not accepted US interference in Ukraine.. neither NATO  will have supported the coup knowing the major potential for a another war between US and Russia.

    on Another note..
    I can't believe Lukanshenko used those words of fighting Putin.. is that true?
    I do not understand his position on Ukraine ,US finance a coup in Ukraine ,help a minority of Nazi radicals to siege power and later finance them ,promote them to kill Assasinate Russians and Ukrainians who reject their authority and protest.. as they did in Odessa. I cannot believe he still believe territory of a nation is more important than millions of lives. When two factions hate each other to death ,is pointless to try to keep them together..while they have ZERO opportunity for future under a Government that call them terrorist and send nazis to burn their houses or kill them.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Thu May 22, 2014 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  etaepsilonk Thu May 22, 2014 5:02 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    macedonian wrote:
    Really?!
    And where the fcuk do YOU live?!
    Know how a civil war looks like? Seen it first hand?!
    No, you're wrong, it doesn't sound cruel - IT REEKS OF UTTER STUPIDITY!


    I really have no interest in encouraging your PMS posts.
    Congratulations!
    You are the VERY FIRST person I've ever downvoted on this forum!
    Now, if you don't have any more of that dubious intelligence to spread around, I suggest we keep commenting on the situation in Ukraine here.
    Sounds fair to you?! Or is it too much of a PMS?!
    You kids are in for a surprise when you marry, I'll tell you that much.

    Congratulations to you too, buy yourself a medal  Smile 


    ---------------------------------------

    Rasmusen in a tone of change announces that Russian forces may be withdrawing somewhat  Smile 

    NATO: Russian forces may be withdrawing, Russia: Kiev expanding military operation

    The small types of troops movement near the border with Ukraine suggests that the preparations for disengagement , said Thursday , NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen.

    " Yesterday ( Wednesday) late in the evening we saw a small Russian military activity near the border with Ukraine , which suggests that some of these forces are preparing to retreat " - NATO chief said during a visit to the capital city of Montenegro .

    " It is too early to speak of what it means , but I hope that it is a complete and full retreat beginning ," - said Rasmussen .

    "Currently, the bulk of Russian forces stationed near the Ukrainian border continues and we see continued Russian exercises in the same area ," - he said.


    NATO chief added: "If we see a significant , comprehensive and evidenced by withdrawal , first congratulate it .

    "It would be the first step in the right direction of Russia in their international commitments , in particular in view of the fact that Ukraine is preparing for presidential elections on Sunday important ," - said Rasmussen .

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Monday pavasarinėse exercises in three regions near the border of Ukraine took part in the military to return to their places of permanent deployment .

    NATO estimates that the Ukrainian border was centered about 40 thousand . Russian troops.

    Russia says that Kiev expanding military operation in eastern Ukraine

    Moscow said on Thursday that Ukraine's pro-Western government of interim consistently expanding its military operation in the eastern part of the country , and accused Kiev, that he was not ready to implement the agreements needed to end the crisis.

    "Kiev ... consistently expanding criminal operation against its own people on a regular basis apšaudydamas towns and villages in the east of the country , as well as the heavy weapons," - said Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Lukaševičius .

    http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/world/nato-rusijos-pajegos-galbut-traukiasi.d?id=64854687#ixzz32SPb01NS


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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  arpakola Thu May 22, 2014 5:10 pm

    Kiev denies OSCE mission access to LifeNews detained journalists
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 Bn7tng7cqaekfdj.si.si.si
    Ukrainian authorities are not letting the OSCE special monitoring mission visit the detained journalists from Russia’s LifeNews channel, Andrey Kelin, Russia's permanent representative to the organization, said.

    Ukrainian authorities are not letting the OSCE special monitoring mission visit the detained journalists from Russia’s LifeNews channel, Andrey Kelin, Russia's permanent representative to the organization, said.

    “At our request, the OSCE mission is demanding a meeting with the journalists, but the Kiev authorities forbid them from doing,” Kelin told ITAR-TASS news agency.

    Russia will continue pushing for action on the part of the OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) aimed at releasing the LifeNews crew, he added.

    According to the representative, the situation around journalists, Oleg Sidyakin and Marat Saichenko, “continues to deteriorate.”

    “We know that they’re accused of terrorism, with other far-fetched charges being pressed against them,” he explained.

    Russia intends to raise the issue of “grave violation of the rights of journalists in Ukraine” at a meeting of the OSCE Permanent Council on Thursday, he stressed, adding that the “same question will be asked by delegations from other countries as well.”

    Russia’s permanent mission has passed the address from the country’s National Broadcasting Association to the OSCE leadership, in which the violation against Russian journalists by Kiev’s coup-imposed government are described, Kelin said.

    There are more and more concerns about the obstruction of the media in Ukraine in anticipation of the presidential election in the country on May 25, he concluded.
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #4 - Page 21 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

    Post  macedonian Thu May 22, 2014 5:17 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.
    Now that you've edited your post, it merits a more serious reply:

    Many (if not MOST, or even ALL) of these soldiers are NOT the Nazi type RightSektor or Svoboda guys. They are your average 'Joe' or 'Jack' (or Митре as we say here). Many are young kids just entering adolescence. Now, I don't know about YOU, but when I was in my late teens, I was very much dumber than what I consider myself today. Didn't know how to behave in every situation, and can't start to think how I'd behave if war was going around me back then. So, before you judge these guys as harshly as you do, try to paint yourself in their spot...walk a mile in their shoes. It's rather easy for us random guys sitting in our homes, commenting on an internet forum, debating what's right and wrong...moral or immoral. When faced with a situation like these people do right now, there's no telling how anyone would react. Especially not these guys that only started shaving a few months ago...

    So let's keep it real, and be as considerate as we can.

    --------------------------
    Edit:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Congratulations to you too, buy yourself a medal  Smile

    No need, I got loads of them from my Grandfather and my Grandmother.
    A dozen of Russian ones too. "For bravery" they say. Which is more than I can say about some people who are bravest when typing things on their computer, but lack the same determination when faced with a REAL situation. THEN they show their true faces...nevermind...


    Last edited by macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Regular Thu May 22, 2014 5:17 pm

    Cocky ukrainian soldiers before



    And after


    A very welcomed outcome. I hope we will see more and more of this.  Locals are doing great thing and helping self defence forces I see. Informing or luring them in ambushes.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu May 22, 2014 5:26 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.
    Now that you've edited your post, it merits a more serious reply:

    Many (if not MOST, or even ALL) of these soldiers are NOT the Nazi type RightSektor or Svoboda guys. They are your average 'Joe' or 'Jack' (or Митре as we say here). Many are young kids just entering adolescence. Now, I don't know about YOU, but when I was in my late teens, I was very much dumber than what I consider myself today. Didn't know how to behave in every situation, and can't start to think how I'd behave if war was going around me back then. So, before you judge these guys as harshly as you do, try to paint yourself in their spot...walk a mile in their shoes. It's rather easy for us random guys sitting in our homes, commenting on an internet forum, debating what's right and wrong...moral or immoral. When faced with a situation like these people do right now, there's no telling how anyone would react. Especially not these guys that only started shaving a few months ago...

    So let's keep it real, and be as considerate as we can.


    For the first bolded part, I agree, but that's how pretty much every civil war rolls.



    For the second, my belief is that a number of personal experience events can make every person react adequately, regardless of intellect and regardless of age. There is a proverb : "desperate times make kids grow faster".
    Well, I'm not some genius to be always correct or something, but in my view, witnessing such events, like installing morale officers in army units, indiscriminate shelling of cities and firing civilians, sending a punitive expedition against a police station (mind you, same event as this recent one), and being too dumb to realize the situation is NOT POSSIBLE.
    And even if they somehow fail to hear gossips, and collect information, their parents definitely don't.


    For the third part, I think I already did that. And I came to conclusion that in situations like this soldiers tend to think that if they stand in the sidelines, they'll come out dry. Unfortunately that's not the case.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 5:40 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  Vann7 Thu May 22, 2014 5:32 pm

    There are reports on forums that the Ukrainian Soldiers killed today ,was killed by Kiev radical loyal forces for refusing to Fight.
    And they blaming it to the Pro Russian Forces.. Probably the helicopters we saw the video flying low did it?
    If this happens to be confirmed by the survivors of the incident and backed by videos it will be more than enough to divide the
    Ukrainian Army in Half at least.. and massive defections to the Pro Russian Side.

    And when it comes to Lukashenko, i lost all respect for that bastard.. he is more concerned with losing territory than to Saving
    millions of Russians lives under a Nazi occupation. Putin Should remove all economical help to him.. and allow Neo Nazis to take control
    of Belarus.. you will see how quick he change his views if he is on the other side of the conflict and the victim of a coup..and his people assassinated by NATO mercenaries.
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    Post  macedonian Thu May 22, 2014 5:34 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:For the first bolded part, I agree, but that's how pretty much every civil war rolls.
    For the second, my belief is that a number of personal experience events can make every person react adequately, regardless of intellect and regardless of age.

    That's exactly the point that I was trying to get across.
    Your beliefs might change, when faced with a REAL situation. And it's been empirically proven that age and intellect ARE indeed great factors.


    ---------------------
    edit:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Well, I'm not some genius to be always correct or something, but in my view, witnessing such events, like installing morale officers in army units, indiscriminate shelling of cities and firing civilians, sending a punitive expedition against a police station (mind you, same event as this recent one), and being too dumb to realize the situation is NOT POSSIBLE.

    AFAIK the regular conscripts never had part in those events. Neither did they fire on civilians. But if you can share a link, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that I was proven wrong.


    Last edited by macedonian on Thu May 22, 2014 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Regular Thu May 22, 2014 5:37 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.
    Now that you've edited your post, it merits a more serious reply:

    Many (if not MOST, or even ALL) of these soldiers are NOT the Nazi type RightSektor or Svoboda guys. They are your average 'Joe' or 'Jack' (or Митре as we say here). Many are young kids just entering adolescence. Now, I don't know about YOU, but when I was in my late teens, I was very much dumber than what I consider myself today. Didn't know how to behave in every situation, and can't start to think how I'd behave if war was going around me back then. So, before you judge these guys as harshly as you do, try to paint yourself in their spot...walk a mile in their shoes. It's rather easy for us random guys sitting in our homes, commenting on an internet forum, debating what's right and wrong...moral or immoral. When faced with a situation like these people do right now, there's no telling how anyone would react. Especially not these guys that only started shaving a few months ago...

    So let's keep it real, and be as considerate as we can.
    Who cares if they are soldiers or clerks. They represent Junta.
    They represent hostile faction. You think they have never attacked any checkpoints? 
    Think about it, military is an institution and yes kids are the ones that die there. Been like this for ages. 
    It's not a tragedy for us, separatist supporters, not even drop of sympathy here, not even from my wife.
    Sorry, but I would have no bodily fluids if I would cry for every unfair victim in Ukraine. This place is a bloody mess and the more decisive actions are taken the less people will die in a long run. Or else it will drag like this for years.
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    Post  macedonian Thu May 22, 2014 5:42 pm

    Regular wrote:
    macedonian wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:My point is that those Ukrainian soldiers HAD to pick one side and not stand in the sidelines, but they failed to realize it.
    Now that you've edited your post, it merits a more serious reply:

    Many (if not MOST, or even ALL) of these soldiers are NOT the Nazi type RightSektor or Svoboda guys. They are your average 'Joe' or 'Jack' (or Митре as we say here). Many are young kids just entering adolescence. Now, I don't know about YOU, but when I was in my late teens, I was very much dumber than what I consider myself today. Didn't know how to behave in every situation, and can't start to think how I'd behave if war was going around me back then. So, before you judge these guys as harshly as you do, try to paint yourself in their spot...walk a mile in their shoes. It's rather easy for us random guys sitting in our homes, commenting on an internet forum, debating what's right and wrong...moral or immoral. When faced with a situation like these people do right now, there's no telling how anyone would react. Especially not these guys that only started shaving a few months ago...

    So let's keep it real, and be as considerate as we can.
    Who cares if they are soldiers or clerks. They represent Junta.
    They represent hostile faction. You think they have never attacked any checkpoints? 
    Think about it, military is an institution and yes kids are the ones that die there. Been like this for ages. 
    It's not a tragedy for us, separatist supporters, not even drop of sympathy here, not even from my wife.

    Many of them JOINED the separatist forces. Not right away, but gradually, when they started realizing how things stand...AND nearly 80% of the soldiers in Crimea chose to serve in the Russian forces. If people in charge at the Kremlin thought the same way many of you here do, there'd be far more problems for Russia than there are now. So I'm glad that it's heads wiser than yours in charge of the situation.
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    Post  etaepsilonk Thu May 22, 2014 5:43 pm

    to macedonian:

    Dude, wait until I finish my comment  Smile 



    "That's exactly the point that I was trying to get across.
    Your beliefs might change, when faced with a REAL situation. And it's been empirically proven that age and intellect ARE indeed great factors."

    They may change, or they may not change. You can't know that, and neither do I, frankly.
    For second part, again, personal experience makes people learn quickly.




    "AFAIK the regular conscripts never had part in those events. Neither did they fire on civilians. But if you can share a link, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that I was proven wrong."

    I meant Kiev forces as a whole, not particular units.
    In my opinion, if you see your side committing atrocities, and by heart don't want to do them yourself, then you should defect or desert, because probability of you being ordered to do the same is pretty high.

    So, I still stand by my point. Those soldiers failed to realize that standing in the sidelines is not an option, and paid the price. You may call it a natural selection. Hopefully, other grunts will be smarter in this regard.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Thu May 22, 2014 6:02 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    Post  macedonian Thu May 22, 2014 5:46 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:to macedonian:

    Dude, wait until I finish my comment  Smile 



    "That's exactly the point that I was trying to get across.
    Your beliefs might change, when faced with a REAL situation. And it's been empirically proven that age and intellect ARE indeed great factors."

    They may change, or they may not change. You can't know that, and neither do I, frankly.
    For second part, again, personal experience makes people learn quickly.

    True. I'm glad we agree on that.

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