Verba MANPAD

The 3 channel guidance of Verba is http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2016-03-11/9_rocket.html

For the first time in the world to set a fundamentally new product seeker - optical tri-band (or trehspektralnaya) operates in the ultraviolet, near-infrared and mid-infrared range. This allows you to get more information about the purpose of making complex "selective" weapon.


No UV band there but near IR and Mid IR and optical

In the previous clip, forward thrusters, which are being fired, are apparently visible at least at the 38 s mark.

Austin wrote:The 3 channel guidance of Verba is  http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2016-03-11/9_rocket.html

For the first time in the world to set a fundamentally new product seeker - optical tri-band (or trehspektralnaya) operates in the ultraviolet, near-infrared and mid-infrared range. This allows you to get more information about the purpose of making complex "selective" weapon.


No UV band there but near IR and Mid IR and optical

They say that it uses UltraViolet (UV)....And UV is a staple of ManPads.

Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:In the previous clip, forward thrusters, which are being fired, are apparently visible at least at the 38 s mark.

Seems like a traditional russian way to stabilize and initial inclining towards target of "SAM's".

They say that it uses UltraViolet (UV)....And UV is a staple of ManPads.

Many manpads use UV filters because a Flare will generate lots of IR signal and UV signal as it burns, but a hot engine does not emit UV rays, so with a UV filter if it spots a hotspot that emits UV rays it can dismiss it as being a flare or the sun...

Interesting! Indian media is reporting that India is trying to purchase 9K333 Verba (and not Igla) from Russia.


https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1284472608574992384?s=20

That probably makes sense... if they are just buying missiles to boost stocks then buying a large batch of Verba makes sense.

The Igla deal was separate and was going to include local production I think which means it will take much longer to impliment.

Buy a batch of Verbas that can be ready to use in a couple of months, and also buy Igla and the rights to produce it and then make it in enormous numbers...

GarryB wrote:That probably makes sense... if they are just buying missiles to boost stocks then buying a large batch of Verba makes sense.

The Igla deal was separate and was going to include local production I think which means it will take much longer to impliment.

Buy a batch of Verbas that can be ready to use in a couple of months, and also buy Igla and the rights to produce it and then make it in enormous numbers...

For some reason several politicians, analysts here in India are suggesting that they can get Sprut SDM1 and Verba from Russian Army inventory.

Verba will probably be used to target Chinese UAVs like Wing Loong with which China plans to attacks Indian SAM systems.

Some military analysts are also suggesting that Verba can intercept Chinese cruise missiles.

India ordered Igla-S, not Verba.

Sprut-SDM1 is in state trials now and not in production. India will have to wait for some years for Sprut-SDM1.

For some reason several politicians, analysts here in India are suggesting that they can get Sprut SDM1 and Verba from Russian Army inventory.

Verba is relatively new in Russian service... not so sure they would be happy giving them away except if offered top dollar for them...

MANPADS are a restricted export item so lots of hoops for exports...

Verba will probably be used to target Chinese UAVs like Wing Loong with which China plans to attacks Indian SAM systems.

Some military analysts are also suggesting that Verba can intercept Chinese cruise missiles.

They tested the original Igla against Malyutka missiles (AT-3 Sagger) and of 9 targets they intercepted 5.

The other four were near misses but Igla has a contact fuse so it needs a direct hit to set off the warhead so four targets were missed.

The Igla was not intended for use against ATGMs or cruise missiles or drones so this wasn't a huge revelation... the fact that it got 5 hits against such a small target is impressive.

The result was the Igla-S which had several improvements... one of which is a proximity fuse to allow it to be used against very small targets like drones and small missiles.

What I am saying is that yes, Verba has a proximity fuse so it can engage small targets too but so can the older and likely cheaper Igla-S, which you are already planning to make for yourself.

I would say if speed is important then ordering a large batch of Igla-S missiles will get them into soldiers hands quicker from existing stocks and current mass production, and will allow you troops to get familiar with them...

And this might sound crazy, but instead of looking at Sprut, I would be looking at Hosta... upgraded 2S1 122mm artillery vehicles fitted with 120mm gun/mortars... what is it... something like 2S34 or something...

The reason I am suggesting this is because the Sprut is a tank and there is not going to be heavy armour up in the mountains that will require a 125mm main gun... many of the targets will be caves and rock walls and infantry positions and the occasional light armoured vehicle.

What I am trying to say is the gun elevation limits of Sprut is minus 5 degrees and plus 15 degrees which is a gun elevation range of 20 degrees... in the mountains that is going to be a pain in the ass to find lumps of terrain to drive up to be able to elevate the barrel to shoot at targets across the way... if the terrain is steep then you might have no chance of pointing your gun barrel at the enemy position let alone lifting it a little higher to shoot at targets in the next valley (using info from drones).

A Hosta with a 120mm gun/mortar on the other hand has excellent gun elevation and can fire shells and mortar bombs and also the Kitilov 122mm guided artillery round and the Gran 120mm guided artillery round... so it could also engage enemy armour if needed.

It is a light mobile vehicle that is also fully amphibious too I believe.

GarryB wrote:Verba is relatively new in Russian service... not so sure they would be happy giving them away except if offered top dollar for them...

Russia had initially offered Igla-S but then offered the Verba
https://theprint.in/defence/two-european-firms-fume-as-laggard-russia-wins-rs-27000-crore-air-defence-system-deal/151979/

GarryB wrote:And this might sound crazy, but instead of looking at Sprut, I would be looking at Hosta... upgraded 2S1 122mm artillery vehicles fitted with 120mm gun/mortars... what is it... something like 2S34 or something...

Indian Army had more than a 100 Hosta. But I understand no more upgrades are available. Hence, the Hosta is no longer being used. A similar role will be carried out by the K-9 howitzer.

In one famous account, Zbigniew Brzezinski, the then US national security adviser, stood at the Khyber Pass, the Quran in one hand and a Stinger in another, and told the mujahideen in 1979 that the two together were the formula to drive the Soviets out.

That is amazing considering the Stinger had only just been developed and wasn't even in US Army service till 1981... and the Soviets didn't invade Afghanistan till 24th December 1979, but this guy was there and with a brand new Stinger missile a full five years before the Americans decided to supply the Muj with these missiles. I guess all the stories about supplying Red Eye missiles and SA-7 missiles from captured ME stocks and the Chinese copy of the missiles before the introduction of the Stinger were made up...

Russia had initially offered Igla-S but then offered the Verba

If you read that article again you will see the original offering for the contract was the Igla-S and that while the Verba was offered during the process because they realised it was still cheaper than the missiles the other companies offered and would therefore still win the competition the contract seems to have been won by the Igla-S.

Indian Army had more than a 100 Hosta. But I understand no more upgrades are available. Hence, the Hosta is no longer being used. A similar role will be carried out by the K-9 howitzer.

No, the Hosta is a 2S1 with the 122mm gun replaced by the 120mm gun/mortar of the 2S31 Vena artillery system... both relatively light and mobile with the performance to fire guided rounds for anti armour use but also able to fire conventional 120mm mortar bombs and 120mm shells to much greater ranges than any tank gun can fire.

India had 2S1 vehicles but not the upgrades to make it effective in mountains.

GarryB wrote:India had 2S1 vehicles but not the upgrades to make it effective in mountains.

Is the Russian domestic version effective in the mountains? What are the upgrades they brought about to make them more effective?

I suspect several new sensors as well were added and the Hosta was also included in the overall Russian C4ISR architecture.

The main purpose I believe was an attempt to remove a calibre from their inventory. Before the conflict in Syria they seemed to be in the process of removing the D-30 towed guns and also withdrawing the 2S1Ms from service... but they had so many parts and chassis I think they decided to replace the 122mm guns with the 120mm rifled gun/mortar of the Vena.

The 120mm gun mortar can fire shells with variable charge propellent loads to a max range of 13km... which is not really that much short of the 15km or so the D-30 and 2S1 122mm guns can manage, and the 21.8kg HE shells are not that much more effective than the 120mm shells that are 19.8kgs that the 120mm gun the Vena carries.

The 120mm gun /mortar can fire the Gran 120mm laser guided mortar bomb and also the 122mm Kitilov round fired by the 122mm gun, but it can also fire the entire range of 120mm mortar bombs too.

The reduced recoil and higher rate of fire of the 120mm weapon means it is a good solution for replacing the older system with a light and mobile vehicle they have available in numbers that can be used to support armoured forces.

(Keep in mind they have 120mm mortars, 122mm artillery pieces, and 125mm smoothbore tank guns in service... they are taking out the 100mm rifled tank guns of the T-54/55, and the 115mm smoothbore anti tank guns, though they are keeping the 100mm rifled medium pressure artillery guns of the BMP_3, and the 100mm smoothbore guns of the MT-12 towed AT guns...)

Syrian experience has shown that towed guns are also rather useful too however... the D-30 being a particularly good gun. Slower to set up than foreign equivalents, but able to fire in any direction without having to dig it out and move it... it can fire in 360 degrees without moving it.

In mountain combat with guided shells it probably could take out any enemy vehicle simply because a diving top attack missile bypasses the heaviest armour on any tank and goes for the thin upper armour and naturally evades most APS systems...

I suspect several new sensors as well were added and the Hosta was also included in the overall Russian C4ISR architecture.

Indeed... they have become rather potent vehicles that don't have to be lined up in a row to fire on a target... and their high gun elevation and variable propellent charge capacity makes them much more flexible than a tank gun.

For those not familiar a mortar is often very effective because it comes down nearly vertically so the walls of the shell with all the fragments create a nice even radial pattern of death, whereas a higher velocity guns round would come in at a shallow angle so a quarter of the fragments will go into the ground and another quarter go up into the air while the two side quarters go sideways so if you are in front or behind the shell you might get to live.

The other problem is that in the mountains targets over the hill can't be hit with a gun because to shoot them the high velocity of the round means once it goes over the hill it keeps going for a very long distance... tank guns don't have the elevation to fire up high to lob rounds over hills or rocks and even if they did a full power propellent charge means they would go up to enormous heights and spend a long time in the air all the while being pushed off trajectory by the wind at the various altitudes.

A mortar or gun mortar in this case has propellent bags like a howitzer so a reduced propellent charge makes the trajectory steeper so it will drop over the hill and land on the reverse slope... you can angle the barrel up steeply and reduce the charge to hit close targets with a short time of flight of the round making it much more accurate... and if you run out of shells local 120mm mortars can supply ammo too.

I would say get a blimp too that you can tether in position to provide radar coverage and observation in the area 24/7, and can be used as a radio repeater so your troops can use it to provide excellent radio communications (add a cell net too for cell phone comms).

Cheaper than flying drones or AWACS type aircraft over the area all the time.

Operate it out of small arms range of course... it will be targeted....

Is the radar connected with the eye sight they carry when using verba ? What is its purpose anyway ? I'm talking about the one that is a glass like the HUD on fighters jets.

Also I want to add that they should develop a bigger missile for vehicle mounted MANPAD with the same sensors.

And just another question, english wiki says it has a "multispectral optical seeker, using three sensors - ultraviolet, near infrared, and mid-infrared - as opposed to the Igla-S' two. Cross-checking sensors against one another better discriminates between relevant targets and decoys, and decreases the chance of disruption from countermeasures, including lasers that attempt to blind missiles."

So it's not a IIR seaker but at least its protected against DIRCM jammers/blinders. Can we expect an IIR since r-74 has it ? IIR makes flares totally useless because it see the plane instead of seeing its IR signature and follow the geometrical forms of the plane instead of its hot spots.

Is the radar connected with the eye sight they carry when using verba ? What is its purpose anyway ? I'm talking about the one that is a glass like the HUD on fighters jets.

Basically the radar detects targets of interest and then cues the Verba operators towards their own individual targets. The radar can detect targets well beyond visual range so they can detect the size and strength of the attacking force.

Those bits of glass protect the shooters eyes from material coming out the back of the missile as it launches but could also display information for the operator... like the compass heading they are facing for instance.

When the radar detects incoming threats and based on where each Verba operator is standing the system would allocate a launcher to a target and send information to each operator individually with information about the approaching target and where it should become visible to the missile... so for instance a bearing of 232 degrees and an altitude of 20m... you would swing your missile around to that direction and elevation and look for the target to appear. The system will tell you when the target is in range so you would activate the missile which might detect the target before you can see it...

Also I want to add that they should develop a bigger missile for vehicle mounted MANPAD with the same sensors.

They have several systems including Digit and Gibka land and sea based launcher, and the Komar naval system too, and the strelets twin or quad launcher for helicopters and aircraft...

So it's not a IIR seaker but at least its protected against DIRCM jammers/blinders.

No, AFAIK it is an IR seeker...

Can we expect an IIR since r-74 has it ? IIR makes flares totally useless because it see the plane instead of seeing its IR signature and follow the geometrical forms of the plane instead of its hot spots.

Three band IR seekers also makes flares useless and is cheaper.... which is important for such an missile that will be produced on a massive scale.

This radar was spotted in Syria (last photo) .

Looks like the ACRV version of the MTLBu, which is a widely used vehicle in the Soviet and Russian military.

It is rather bigger than the smaller sets they sometimes mount on individual weapons like HMGs and grenade launchers and is perhaps related to the Fara range of radar for detecting incoming ballistic fire and tracing the source of fire for automated return fire...

Would be handy connected to an artillery battery as any idiots trying to use mortars or longer ranged artillery against them will be detected targeted and fired upon seconds after their first rounds hit the ground.

Should also detect drones at short range too.

Better pics

That's the 1L122-1. They have the 1L122-2 which is 2 times better and carried on the same vehicle. 40 and 80km range respectively.

It's a L band radar. It was on the website of rosoboronexport but was removed.