Azerbaijan vs Armenia [Nagorno-Karabakh conflict]

etaepsilonk

Can you tell me what are you on about? And what latest border incident? Of course if you wish to believe propaganda so, but there was no "SFs" involved, just a border shooting, and Armenians also had casualities, just a regular incident, nothing unusual with regards to its nature and losses.

By the way, the security of glorious warrior nation of Armenia is entirely connected to its relations with Russia and CSTO. They are very well aware that they are hopeless by themselves, despite all their delusions.

As for the rambo Armenian conscripts, you tell me what they would do in a real war facing an actual army with everything.

And before you say it, no, the first Karabakh war is not a indication of what would happen in the second one. The country is not the same, resources is not the same, army is not the same, equipment is not the same. I'm not saying Armenia stuck where it was, but oviously it does not compare to Azerbaijan.

AttilaA wrote:etaepsilonk

Can you tell me what are you on about? And what latest border incident? Of course if you wish to believe propaganda so, but there was no "SFs" involved, just a border shooting, and Armenians also had casualities, just a regular incident, nothing unusual with regards to its nature and losses.

By the way, the security of glorious warrior nation of Armenia is entirely connected to its relations with Russia and CSTO. They are very well aware that they are hopeless by themselves, despite all their delusions.

As for the rambo Armenian conscripts, you tell me what they would do in a real war facing an actual army with everything.

And before you say it, no, the first Karabakh war is not a indication of what would happen in the second one. The country is not the same, resources is not the same, army is not the same, equipment is not the same. I'm not saying Armenia stuck where it was, but oviously it does not compare to Azerbaijan.

The Armenians definitely aren't pussies; Azerbaijan had advantages in men & materials during the first war (or am I wrong?); at the very least they had the support of Soviet troops for a while that Gorby sent, and then later on - assistance from Turkey, Chechen volunteers, etc... yet the Azeris ultimately lost the territory.
Hell, Basayev himself said that the only defeat he ever suffered - was at the hands of an Armenian battalion  

So how would you describe the first Chechen war, which was not even comparable to the balance which existed between Azerbaijan and Armenia during first Karabakh war? There really wasn't all that difference between Azerbaijan and Armenia, and certainly not in technological terms, but more importantly there was barely anyone to man those equipment in a professional way, mostly because of the Soviet policy with regards to military service of Muslims. Also, an actual army in real sense didn't exist, but this would be also more or less true for Armenians, however, they were indeed better organized. In the midst of war, a general rebelled and marched towards Baku with his soldiers and equipment, thats how messed up the situation was in country, and with regards to individuals at top.

And if we are supposed to talk about "warrior" definition as in traditional sense, not only is it very stupid in our modern world, but also only a really ignorant person can keep on making such claims. Largely nomadic Azerbaijanis (lets keep in mind that this was a term that Stalin gave to us, and we are better known as Tatars or Turkmens in history), whos life revolved around pillaging innhabitants of Caucasia and Iran (not something that I'm proud of, but thats how it was), meant that our traditional culture was much more based on being a "warrior" than sedentary, merchant Armenians.

AttilaA wrote:So how would you describe the first Chechen war, which was not even comparable to the balance which existed between Azerbaijan and Armenia during first Karabakh war? There really wasn't all that difference between Azerbaijan and Armenia, and certainly not in technological terms, but more importantly there was barely anyone to man those equipment in a professional way, mostly because of the Soviet policy with regards to military service of Muslims. Also, an actual army in real sense didn't exist, but this would be also more or less true for Armenians, however, they were indeed better organized. In the midst of war, a general rebelled and marched towards Baku with his soldiers and equipment, thats how messed up the situation was in country, and with regards to individuals at top.

And if we are supposed to talk about "warrior" definition as in traditional sense, not only is it very stupid in our modern world, but also only a really ignorant person can keep on making such claims. Largely nomadic Azerbaijanis (lets keep in mind that this was a term that Stalin gave to us, and we are better known as Tatars or Turkmens in history), whos life revolved around pillaging innhabitants of Caucasia and Iran (not something that I'm proud of, but thats how it was), meant that our traditional culture was much more based on being a "warrior" than sedentary, merchant Armenians.

I never said that the Azeris are cowards, incompetent fighters, etc... simply that the Armenians have proved themselves already in the last war - when other than some Russian/Ukrainian mercenaries and sympathetic officers; they were on their own. Even the USSR went against them after they boycotted the referendum on the USSRs continuation and the Azeri communist leader at the time convinced Gorby of the necessity of a military operation.

Now whether they prevailed against better odds due to higher morale/tenacity, better military training from Soviet times, more unity & solid organisation, because they had time to entrench themselves, etc... well, I'm simply not one to say. I know far too little about that war.
And naturally the Azeris are not the same army now just as the Russians are not the same army now which went to Chechnya in 1994.

Actually the analogy you brought up is a good one. Why did the Russians lose the first war, and take so many casualties? It had nothing to do with warrior tradition:

a. Completely wrong tactics used, underestimation of the enemy, etc... (on purpose?)
b. Corrupt officers which sold out their own men, sold information to the enemy, etc...
c. Politicians who gave up Chechnya even after it had already all been taken under control by the Russian military by 1996.
d. Huge bunch of young conscripts employed who didn't really want to be there
e. Brutal tactics used and high collateral damage which increased animosity/resistance by the local population to far higher than it should have been.

Even from the very start of the war, individual Russian motor-rifle units, etc... when sent in - fulfilled all their objectives, and drove the Chechens completely back. But unfortunately these successes weren't capitalized on or they were given completely nonsensical orders after that.

However, that's not to discount the Chechens; at the end of the day it was their own resolve and tenacity (and later - terrorist tactics) that allowed them to exploit all these problems and fight against a country with a hundred fold times its military capability; and last long enough to win.
Now make of that what you will - but it would be foolish to assume that they would suddenly become easy opponents again were a third war to break out.

To AttilaA:
"Of course if you wish to believe propaganda so, but there was no "SFs" involved, just a border shooting, and Armenians also had casualities, just a regular incident, nothing unusual with regards to its nature and losses."

What?  

Sorry dude, but bravery medals being awarded to soldiers dying of "heart failure" is not Armenian invention. Your country admitted 1 casualty, and and at least six others during the following week dying from bizarre reasons, like "driving from the road", "accidently shot by mishandled firearm", "struck by lightning", "hit by falling bricks" and so on. Here's a summary of that incident:
http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2014/01/23/shahnazaryan/

As you can see, there were two attempts to infiltrate the border (maybe they weren't SF units, I don't know that, but conscripts usually aren't used in such operations).
I understand of course, that the fact of SF units being defeated by conscripts may sound pretty painful for Azeris to admit, but it's much better to realise your mistakes and not ignore them.








"By the way, the security of glorious warrior nation of Armenia is entirely connected to its relations with Russia and CSTO. They are very well aware that they are hopeless by themselves, despite all their delusions.
As for the rambo Armenian conscripts, you tell me what they would do in a real war facing an actual army with everything."

If you want to know, how those "rambo Armenian conscripts" would do in a real war facing an actual army with everything, then why don't you see for yourself?   

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=85e_1360803455 (Warning, video is pretty graphic)

Look, no Russia or CSTO whatsoever   





"And before you say it, no, the first Karabakh war is not a indication of what would happen in the second one."

LOL, you're mixing it up. First Karabakh war was in 1918, where Azerbaijan got their a**es kicked

Second war was in 1991, where Azerbaijan got their a**es kicked again

Not sure about you, but I see a pattern here




"The country is not the same, resources is not the same, army is not the same, equipment is not the same."

Absolutely, next time Artsakh-Karabakh Armenians wouldn't have to capture supplies from Azeris to be able to wage war

In fact, Armenians were pretty under-equiped for a winning army. You can see so for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAThP4-sh-w






"I'm not saying Armenia stuck where it was, but oviously it does not compare to Azerbaijan."

Yes, Armenia's army is much better.




"but more importantly there was barely anyone to man those equipment in a professional way, mostly because of the Soviet policy with regards to military service of Muslims."

Yeah, cool story bro    Yes, in Soviet army there was discrimination of Azeris, but trust me, it got nothing to do with religion or nationality  

So I'm dealing with a troll, just so I (and other members) know...

So what are you saying, that we should believe Armenian propaganda? Sure, go on, but don't except others to do so. Armenian side also had a casuality, and there were other casualities following it, so I assume your logic also applies to Armenian side aswell?

Just few days ago your defence ministry were saying that CSTO are supposedly obliged to assist Armenia in event of a war against Azerbaijan.

1918-1920 war included several regions, I'm not aware of any Armenian victory during the war, are you now inventing BS out of your a**?

"Yes, Armenia's army is much better."

You reached a new level of absurdity.

"Yeah, cool story bro"

What are you, twelve?

Armenians have been better prepared for the war , not in terms of equipment but in sense of duty and mission at hand.

Azeri military lost most of the ground during political turmoils in Baku , politicians in Baku behaved almost as enemies of their army , war is known to be continuation of politics with other means and if politicians care more about fighting for power instead of focusing on war at hand , defeat is assured.

I'm not an expert on Armenian or Azerbaijan armies, but Azeri army looks way better funded while Armenians have Russian support.

Regular wrote:I'm not an expert on Armenian or Azerbaijan armies, but Azeri army looks way better funded while Armenians have Russian support.

Ofc, Azerbaijan has the oil money, while Armenia does not.

Russia is on decent terms with both of them however, and rightfully so.

TR1 wrote:

Regular wrote:I'm not an expert on Armenian or Azerbaijan armies, but Azeri army looks way better funded while Armenians have Russian support.

Ofc, Azerbaijan has the oil money, while Armenia does not.

Russia is on decent terms with both of them however, and rightfully so.

Though it should be noted that recent talks between the 3 hasn't had much productivity, lets hope Russia can maintain the peace as a wise and rational mediator.

To magnum:
"Though it should be noted that recent talks between the 3 hasn't had much productivity, lets hope Russia can maintain the peace as a wise and rational mediator."

Those talks will be failing as long as Azeris won't realise, that status of Artsakh is not negotiable.
For Armenians, this territory is not a matter of prestige, but a matter of survival.








To Regular:
"I'm not an expert on Armenian or Azerbaijan armies, but Azeri army looks way better funded while Armenians have Russian support."

This is far more complex than that.
Yes, Azerbaijan's military budget is much bigger... on paper. However, much of that money is wasted on nice looking but not very suitable and very expensive military technologies. A huge part is also syphoned-off by corrupt officials (for buying dachas on the caspian coast, real estate abroad, etc.). Remember, the corruption of Azerbaijan is actually comparable to that of Afghanistan. They're only slightly richer due to huge oilfields they're sitting on.

Secondly, yes, Russian weapons amount to large part of Armenia's inventory, however, not only Russians are supplying Armenians with weapons

For example, Armenians bought about 30 Su-25s from Mid Europe (Slovakia or Hungary, don't remember exactly) for a very good price

Armenians also have a nice number of Zastava M93 AM rifles, which are Serbian

Also, a couple or so years ago, they brought a large shipment of ATGMs and RRs from Moldova. I remember having a good laugh, when I read that Aliev's junta were very upset about this deal   
And no wonder why: Those criminals and their supporters (such as this Azeri fellow here) spent so much time and effort babbling how Armenia is totally dependant on Russian arms. And those deals are ridiculing this nonsense very nicely  







To AttilaA:

"So what are you saying, that we should believe Armenian propaganda?"

Oh, Armenian propaganda, you say?
Well, let's watch Azeri "objective information" on this matter, shall we?   
http://en.apa.az/xeber_azerbaijani_defense_ministry_says_armeni_206265.html

So, brave Azeris captured an Armenian special forces guide and saboteur. And he just coincidentally happens to be a 77 year old Armenian villager with appearant mental health problems:     
http://news.am/eng/news/191429.html

Unless this old man is still better than any Azeri SF operator, how on Earth one could even think, that he could even be a fighting soldier, much less a SF member????

So, sorry pal, but I'd much rather read Armenian propaganda, than this retarded crap of your country. Because the former, even if exaggerated, is at least believable.





"Sure, go on, but don't except others to do so."

Oh, really? That's too bad, I was just about to post another piece of evidence. Well, I'll post anyway, in case at least one of 800 plus members and even more guests would be interested:
http://www.armradio.am/en/2014/01/23/armenia-ready-to-provide-the-samples-of-armament-found-at-the-site-of-subversive-attack-to-mg-co-chairs/

It appears, that Armenian side is ready to provide all items ( that it planted itself in their totally faked "prevention of border infiltration" spectacle to discredit peace loving Azeris) to the OSCE organisation


Just let me ask. If this is "just a regular border shooting", as you say, then why Armenians are so confident to send their evidence to international organisation without any fear to be caught red-handed? Or maybe OSCE is now Armenia's propaganda tool, or something?  







"Just few days ago your defence ministry were saying that CSTO are supposedly obliged to assist Armenia in event of a war against Azerbaijan."

And how this relates to your "Oh, without CSTO bailout Armenia is DOOMED"?




"1918-1920 war included several regions, I'm not aware of any Armenian victory during the war, are you now inventing BS out of your a**?"

Well, I dunno. Maybe because both countries just got their independence, engaged forces were very small, and most fighting were done on skirmish level. However, since Armenian forces managed to hold out for like two years, until your new buddy, Soviet union, came to win the war for you, I count this as Armenian victory. Especialy since many Armenian towns and villages were saved from Azeri "liberators" that way.
Others weren't so fortunate:  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku_pogrom   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shusha_massacre  






"You reached a new level of absurdity."
Is the fact of Earth being round absurd to you too?  

Can you explain, what exactly is not "suitable" in regards to Azerbaijan's arms procurement? The question is, do you have any idea about it?

"For example, Armenians bought about 30 Su-25s from Mid Europe"

You mean 10? Good for you.

"Armenians also have a nice number of Zastava M93 AM rifles"

Are we talking about small arms now? Good for you.

"Also, a couple or so years ago, they brought a large shipment of ATGMs and RRs from Moldova."

Very ironic that you talk about corruption on Azerbaijan's side, and at the same time mention this, which sounds nothing else than what it is, corruption. Maybe you can tell me if you see whats wrong with buying worn-out junk from MOLDOVA.   

More senseless trolling...Move on.

To AttilaA:

"Can you explain, what exactly is not "suitable" in regards to Azerbaijan's arms procurement? The question is, do you have any idea about it?"

Maybe   
Well, in my opinion, your purchase of T-155 Firtinas is pointless (since you already bought Msta-S with similar stats)

Also, your purchase of Matadors/Marauders is also pointless, coz they're only used in low-scale warfare. Unless of course, Azerbaijan's civil war is upcoming, then it's OK   

I'm not sure if a deal for Green pine radars from Israel has gone through, but this radar is pointless without complete Arrow system.

Here, a couple of examples. Satisfied, or you want more?   

"You mean 10? Good for you."

Armenian airforce comprises of 30 Su-25, so not sure where you got this "10" from.
And one interesting thing: it would appear, that this number is larger than Azerbaijan's. So, Armenian airforce (or to be more exact, it's CAS element) is actually more numerous    And I'm not even mentioning better pilot quality   

"Are we talking about small arms now? Good for you."

We're talking about all arms. And those prove, that your claims about complete dependence to CSTO are bo****ks

"Very ironic that you talk about corruption on Azerbaijan's side, and at the same time mention this, which sounds nothing else than what it is, corruption. Maybe you can tell me if you see whats wrong with buying worn-out junk from MOLDOVA."

Not sure, if anybody told you, but ATGMs cannot be worn-out, because they can only be used once. Jeez, talk about Azeri education       

"More senseless trolling...Move on."

Well, if you think I'm trolling, then go ahead, report me. Or are you more "loud words, no action" kinda guy?   

Everybody seems preoccupied with Ukraine – no surprise here – but there are also other things going on. What about the recent flare up between Azerbaijan and Nagorno Karabakh?

Clashes reported 2 Armenian 8 Azeri soldiers KIA, movements of armour reported & actually photographed – sorry my posting privileges are limited so no links.  

Anybody – Armenian & Azeri members especially – more on the developing situation?

I think it's about time for Azeris to receive a hard lesson.

POKL wrote:Everybody seems preoccupied with Ukraine – no surprise here – but there are also other things going on. What about the recent flare up between Azerbaijan and Nagorno Karabakh?

Clashes reported 2 Armenian 8 Azeri soldiers KIA, movements of armour reported & actually photographed – sorry my posting privileges are limited so no links.  

Anybody – Armenian & Azeri members especially – more on the developing situation?

Well it's a world war and every country would be directly impacted; no surprises here.

Here is a write up on the Nagornyj Karabakh and Azerbajdzhan situation by Colonel Cassad on his web site.

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/#post-colonelcassad-1589684

Moscow concerned about deteriorating situation in Karabakh region

MOSCOW, August 02 /ITAR-TASS/. Moscow on Saturday voiced concern about the latest flare-ups in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict area and urged the parties involved to refrain from using force and take steps towards stabilising the situation in the region.

“We express serious concern about the dramatic deterioration of the situation in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict area, which has resulted in considerable casualties,” Foreign Ministry Deputy Spokesperson Maria Zakharova said.

“We regard the latest events as a serious violation of the ceasefire and the declared intentions to achieve a political settlement,” she said, adding that further escalation would be unacceptable.

Four Azerbaijani army servicemen were killed in overnight clashes, the Azerbaijani Defence Ministry said, adding that Armenians had also sustained casualties but did not elaborate.

Defence Ministry spokesperson Vagif Dargyakhly denied media reports alleging that the Azerbaijani army was using guided missile systems against Armenian troops.

“Units of the country’s Armed Forces are taking adequate measures in response to ceasefire violations by the Armenian side. But they are using only large caliber firearms,” he said.

He confirmed that 12 Azerbaijani troops had been killed in the conflict area over the past four days and several had been wounded, but did not specify.

The spokesperson said the current situation in the region was relatively calm.

Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev said in July that his country was using political and economic factors to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict peacefully.

He stressed that Azerbaijan could solve the problem by force, but “we think the potential of negotiations has not been used up yet”.

“Using political, economic and military pressure we will try to get the issue solved peacefully. Our economic, political and military potential is quite strong and this factor will play a positive role at the talks,” the president said, adding that the conflict could not remain frozen.

Aliyev regretted the absence of progress in the resolution of the conflict despite the international mediators’ efforts. “We are of the opinion that the mediators dealing with this [Karabakh] issue are more interested in keeping the situation in its present state. Their main interest is in preserving stability and preventing a war in the region. We also want peace. But at the same time we want to see truth and justice restored and international law triumphing,” he said.

The president also believes that the conflict should be settled “cardinally”. “Half-solutions can only be an interim step. We should not forget the main goal. The people of Azerbaijan should return to the occupied territories,” he said.

He stressed that Nagorno-Karabakh’s Armenians could get a high status of autonomy within Azerbaijan. “We proposed this and this approach is based on the most positive experience the world and Europe have,” he added.

The Armenian president’s spokesperson Arman Sagatelyan said on Saturday that the conflict could not be resolved by force.

“Armenia is convinced that there can be no military solution to the Karabakh conflict,” he said. “The truce agreement signed in 1994 clearly states the parties’ legal obligations that must be respected. The Nagorno-Karabakh problem can only be resolved through peace negotiation,” Sagatelyan said.

The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict began on February 22, 1988. On November 29, 1989 direct rule in Nagorno-Karabakh was ended and Azerbaijan regained control of the region. However later a joint session of the Armenian parliament and the top legislative body of Nagorno-Karabakh proclaimed the unification of Nagorno-Karabakh with Armenia.

On December 10, 1991, Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh held a referendum, boycotted by local Azeris, which approved the creation of an independent state.

The struggle over Nagorno-Karabakh escalated after both Armenia and Azerbaijan obtained independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. By the end of 1993, the conflict had caused thousands of casualties and created hundreds of thousands of refugees on both sides. An unofficial ceasefire was reached on May 12, 1994.

As of August, 2008, the co-chairmen of the OSCE Minsk Group were attempting to negotiate a full settlement of the conflict. On August 2, 2008, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan travelled to Moscow for talks with Dmitry Medvedev, who was Russian president at the time. As a result, the three presidents signed an agreement that calls for talks on a political settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

Five soldiers killed in Nagorny-Karabakh clash

At least five soldiers have been killed in fresh clashes between Azerbaijan and Armenia over the disputed Nagorny-Karabakh region.

Azerbaijan’s Defense Ministry said on Saturday that its troopers tried to repel an overnight attack by ethnic Armenian forces, adding that four soldiers were killed in the clash.

One Armenian soldier was also killed, authorities in Nagorny-Karabakh said.

Baku had said on Friday that eight Azeri soldiers had been killed in three days of fighting in the area.

Armenia and Azerbaijan have been locked in a conflict over the disputed territory with occasional clashes along the ceasefire line. Nagorno-Karabakh is largely populated by Armenians but located in Azerbaijan.

Ethnic Armenian forces took control of the enclave, which accounts for 16 percent of Azerbaijan, in the early 1990s during a six-year war that lasted from February 1988 to May 1994.

The conflict left an estimated 30,000 people dead and one million others displaced before the two sides agreed to a ceasefire in 1994. However, a peace accord has never been signed and the dispute still remains unsettled.

Later on Saturday, Armenia said President Serzh Sarkisian will discuss the crisis with his Azeri counterpart Ilham Aliyev in a meeting in the Russian city of Sochi next week.

Russia’s Foreign Ministry expressed concern over the recent fighting, which it called a “serious violation of a ceasefire agreement.”

On Friday, the US called on the leaders of the two countries to hold talks. “Retaliation and further violence will only make it more difficult to bring about a peaceful settlement,” deputy State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf said.

Armenia accuses Azerbaijan of violation of ceasefire pact

YEREVAN, August 05. /ITAR-TASS/. Armenia has accused Azerbaijan of violation of a ceasefire regime, the Armenian defense ministry said Tuesday.

"On Monday night and Tuesday morning the Azeri side has once again violated a ceasefire regime in different sections of the state border with Armenia," the Armenian defense ministry said, adding that large-scale caliber guns alongside with the ordinary guns had been used in the incident. No casualties on the Armenian side have been reported.

"The Armenian armed forces have ensured reliable control of the situation all along the state border with Azerbaijan and strictly observe the terms of the ceasefire agreement", the Armenian defense ministry said.

"But, the Armenian side has to use measure adequate to the situation only if the adversary opens targeted fire," it said.

Azerbaijan is a US puppet which means that if uncle Sam order them to create a second front they must obey to the David's star.
Armenia is a free country and if needed I am sure that Vladimir the Great and the East will be here for them!

Hannibal Barca wrote:Azerbaijan is a US puppet which means that if uncle Sam order them to create a second front they must obey to the David's star.
Armenia is a free country and if needed I am sure that Vladimir the Great and the East will be here for them!

LMAO. The Funny Squad Team at it again. You do realize that Russia is the one selling weapons on a large scale to the Azeri dictator in Baku?

Everything from S-300PMU2 and new Buk SAMs to T-90 MBTs, BMP-3 and BTR-80 vehicles, in addition to BM-30 Smerch and TOS-1 MRLS systems.

Yes, Russia is in another words arming an enemy of Armenia and NK Republic. Isn't that nice ?   

And with one flick of a switch in Moscow those toys suddenly self destruct...   

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer...

CSTO Chief Visits Armenia-Azerbaijan Front Line, Gets Earful From Sargsyan

The head of Russia's post-Soviet military bloc has made his first-ever visit to the Armenia-Azerbaijan border, checking on the readiness of Armenian troops there. The show of support was made just before Armenia was scheduled to sign an agreement to become a member of Russia's other big Eurasian integration project, the Eurasian Union.

But Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan took the occasion of the visit to criticize the bloc, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, for failing to consistently support Armenia's interests in its conflict with Azerbaijan over the territory of Nagorno Karabakh, which Armenian forces control but which de jure belongs to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan's government has repeatedly threatened to take back the territory by force, and Armenia's alliance with Russia and the CSTO is its strongest security guarantee.

"The president underscored that the positions of a number of CSTO partners on issues being of paramount importance to allies, particularly on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, expressed in different international platforms, do not correspond to the common spirit of the negotiation process, contradict the statements and proposals of the OSCE Minsk Group, as well as to the documents endorsed within the framework of the CSTO," Sargsyan's office said in a statement. "[Azerbaijan President] Ilham Aliyev’s bellicose and Armenophobic statements do not rouse a keen response among our CSTO partners which could have suppressed the adventurous desires of the Azeri leadership."

Sargsyan appeared to be referring to statements made by other CSTO members like Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan in Turkic and Islamic fora supporting Azerbaijan's position on Karabakh. This is not the first time he has complained about this, but tying the complaints to Bordyuzha's visit was unusual and suggested that Yerevan was trying to elevate the issue.

Sargsyan's complaints may have been intended for a domestic audience as well, said Emil Sanamyan, editor of the newspaper Armenian Reporter. "My sense of this is that Russia is delaying certain weapons transfers to Armenia until the Eurasian Union is finalized," Sanamyan said in an email interview with The Bug Pit. "Since there is no real guarantee that delays wont continue post-membership, Sargsyan has become more vocal in his criticisms of arms sales to Azerbaijan and lack of CSTO reaction to violations on Armenia-Azerbaijan border." Public criticism during Bordyuzha's visit "keeps the issue on the agenda and protects Sargsyan domestically," he added.

Bordyuzha said the goal of his visit to the Azerbaijan border was to "prepare a report about the operational environment" there. Bordyuzha's visit was connected to "the growing tensions at the borders of the CSTO member states in the recent period, including the drastic aggravation of the situation along the Armenian-Azeri and the Nagorno-Karabakh-Azeri line of contact in August this year," Sargsyan's office's statement said. "Unfortunately, Azeri provocative actions in every possible way pose a threat to the fragile security system of the area under the CSTO responsibility."

Does all this portend a more active CSTO involvement in Karabakh? Is that connected with Yerevan's signing of the Eurasian Union agreement? Stay tuned.

Karabakh Military Helicopter Shot Down by Azerbaijan Forces

MOSCOW, November 12 (RIA Novosti) — The press service of Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Defense stated that it was “a Mi-24 helicopter belonging to the Republic of Armenia’s armed forces,” and that it “made an attempt to attack Azerbaijani positions.” According to a statement issued by the ministry, the helicopter was shot down in the vicinity of the village of Chemengly in the Agdam district of Azerbaijan, and crashed in territory controlled by Azerbaijani forces. Azerbaijani forces were deployed to secure the crash site.

Lt. Col. Senor Asratyan, press secretary of the self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (NKR), told RIA Novosti that it was an NKR military helicopter that was conducting a training flight. “At about 13.45 local time Wednesday, in an act that violated a standing ceasefire, a NKR Air Forces Mi-24 that was conducting a training flight was shot down by the Azerbaijani side in the airspace over the eastern direction of the Karabakh-Azerbaijani contact line,” Asratyan said.

According to Asratyan, the crash site is located close to the demarcation line, and Azerbaijani troops are continuing to subject the area to “intensive small arms fire.”

The Karabakh conflict started in February 1988, when the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Region, populated mostly by ethnic Armenians, declared its secession from the Azerbaijan SSR. In September 1991, the creation of the NKR was proclaimed in the city of Stepanakert. The government of Azerbaijan declared this move illegal and abolished the autonomous status of Nagorno-Karabakh. The armed conflict that followed was stopped by a ceasefire agreement on May 12, 1994. As a result, Azerbaijan lost control of Nagorno-Karabakh and – either fully or partially – of the seven districts adjacent to it.

Negotiations under the auspices of the OSCE Minsk Group, co-chaired by the US, Russia and France, are being conducted to achieve a peaceful resolution of the conflict. Azerbaijan insists on maintaining its territorial integrity and NKR’s interests are being represented by Armenia, as the self-proclaimed republic is not recognized as a state.

The bias of RIA novosti, as usual. The real title should be "Armenian military helicopter shot down". There is no such thing as "Karabakh Mi-24". The helicoptesr belonged to the Armenian air force (there is no Mi-24s stationed in Karabakh), the crew were all pilots of the Armenian air force, born in Armenia, lived in Armenia, worked in Armenian air force. Their presence there was connected to a exercise, otherwise they are stationed in Erebuni in Armenia.

The Mi-24 was hit by Igla-S (SA-24) MANPAD. The other helicopter was let go, although soldiers had the possibility to engage that as well (in the video one can hear "no, don't hit the other one", I can't hear it clearly but I believe someone asks if they SHOULD hit the other one).



The Igla-S that was used against the helicopter.