Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Since the super gorshkov is a new hull it will take much longer to build than subsequent regular gorshkovs. It will be a similat situation to the  855s and 855Ms ( build time around 5 years longer)Since its also bigger than the original you can add a few more years of build time. Together with unexpected problems during building because its a new ship, delays during trials, also as garryB likes to say "because its the first of its class", I prefict  build time of 15+years and 10+ years of trials for the super gorshkov and assuming its launched in 2025-2027, we can expect it to be in service by 2052 at the earliest.

Depends what they do with it and so far we don't have a clue.

Don't take that Naval Expo scale model as some gospel. Keep in mind that it's displayed by very same company that gave us nonsense like ''Shtorm'' Super Superior Supercarrier and that idiotic anime-style nuclear destroyer.  

It's important to separate that type of horseshit from reality.

If they don't go full retard and instead just take standard Gorshkov and simply add another segment or two so they could fit extra VLS cells and additional fuel tanks then it will not affect build time in any unpredictable way.

PapaDragon wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Since the super gorshkov is a new hull it will take much longer to build than subsequent regular gorshkovs. It will be a similat situation to the  855s and 855Ms ( build time around 5 years longer)Since its also bigger than the original you can add a few more years of build time. Together with unexpected problems during building because its a new ship, delays during trials, also as garryB likes to say "because its the first of its class", I prefict  build time of 15+years and 10+ years of trials for the super gorshkov and assuming its launched in 2025-2027, we can expect it to be in service by 2052 at the earliest.

Depends what they do with it and so far we don't have a clue.

Don't take that Naval Expo scale model as some gospel. Keep in mind that it's displayed by very same company that gave us nonsense like ''Shtorm'' Super Superior Supercarrier and that idiotic anime-style nuclear destroyer.  

It's important to separate that type of horseshit from reality.

If they don't go full retard and instead just take standard Gorshkov and simply add another segment or two so they could fit extra VLS cells and additional fuel tanks then it will not affect build time in any unpredictable way.

Unless you have some official statement, they didn't start work of dev for any of these ships. Like Papadragon said it's just artwork of the companies.

The whole purpose design the modular multipurpose design of the new Russian ships is so they can be rapidly built in all shipyards.

https://www.facebook.com/289334207795128/videos/1538389506222919/

Supposed Video of a Ka-52K landing on the admiral Gorshkov....

GarryB wrote:The whole purpose design the modular multipurpose design of the new Russian ships is so they can be rapidly built in all shipyards.

They may want to start taking advantage of that feature

Some nice pics via Balancer forums

PapaDragon wrote:

GarryB wrote:The whole purpose design the modular multipurpose design of the new Russian ships is so they can be rapidly built in all shipyards.

They may want to start taking advantage of that feature

They need to start taking advantage of that feature.

PapaDragon wrote:

GarryB wrote:The whole purpose design the modular multipurpose design of the new Russian ships is so they can be rapidly built in all shipyards.

They may want to start taking advantage of that feature

Maybe they are waiting the super-gorshkov because the gorshkov is not what they want anymore. The modular design is the same for both of them so they have conclude that spending a litle more time for designing a bigger ship is better than buying lot of gorshkovs. They still have Grigorovitch, Steregouchy, Karakurt to build so who cares.

But if we see the Super Gorshkov we can say Bye-Bye to the 21956 destroyer which too bad because it has the space for S-400F while the Redut cells can't have the big missiles and is just the naval S-350.

It's all about economy and giving work to the shipyards. They don't really care about a war. Who would attack them ?

Isos wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

GarryB wrote:The whole purpose design the modular multipurpose design of the new Russian ships is so they can be rapidly built in all shipyards.

They may want to start taking advantage of that feature

Maybe they are waiting the super-gorshkov because the gorshkov is not what they want anymore. The modular design is the same for both of them so they have conclude that spending a litle more time for designing a bigger ship is better than buying lot of gorshkovs. They still have Grigorovitch, Steregouchy, Karakurt to build so who cares.

But if we see the Super Gorshkov we can say Bye-Bye to the 21956 destroyer which too bad because it has the space for S-400F while the Redut cells can't have the big missiles and is just the naval S-350.

It's all about economy and giving work to the shipyards. They don't really care about a war. Who would attack them ?

Project 21956 was never going to be built for yes you are right.

The leader aka project 23560 is going to be built regardless if they build super Gorvs or not.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Project 21956 was never going to be built for yes you are right.

The leader aka project 23560 is going to be built regardless if they build super Gorvs or not.

I know. 21956 was designed with S-300F so it is a pretty old design but it is offered to export (at least on website of rosoboronexport).

I've always though that RuN had made the mistake of not integrating S-300 on more ships. They keep it just for big ships while China succesfully put it on frigates. That's why I like the project 21956. Udaloy for exemple are 164m long and could have been designed with it.

Lider is another level, can't be compared to a frigate of 135m.

Lider destroyer is slated for 2025, it will not be affected by frigate construction

It leaves 7 years at least so they really need to get off their asses and start building frigates in the meantime

If Gorshkov class is giving them so much headache then they should just give light upgrade to Grigorevich frigates and build them instead (drop torpedoes and anti-sub rockets​, upgrade sonar and sensors, add another UKSK and streamline the upper section)

They need fresh ships ASAP

PapaDragon wrote:Lider destroyer is slated for 2025, it will not be affected by frigate construction

It leaves 7 years at least so they really need to get off their asses and start building frigates in the meantime

If Gorshkov class is giving them so much headache then they should just give light upgrade to Grigorevich frigates and build them instead (drop torpedoes and anti-sub rockets​, upgrade sonar and sensors, add another UKSK and streamline the upper section)

They need fresh ships ASAP

Completely agree. The Russian navy doesn't have the privilege of "wanting" and "not wanting". They need to start building what they can build now instead of planning new upgrades and ships that keep never getting build because they changed their minds in the last minute about them. There are still so much udaloys, slavas and sovremennys to replace, that it doesn't matter if it will be gorshkov or super gorshkov, they simply need to replace these aging ships.

the point is that the modular design will speed up production and development... the new ships will be multirole, but bigger ships will get different radars and sensors from smaller ships, but will have the same weapons in greater numbers.

They will also have different propulsion arrangements.

The point is that the software to make everything work can be standardised... the difference will be that the larger vessels will be able to scan greater distances with their larger sensors, but with the C4IR systems even a tiny vessel can have target data for targets well outside its sensor range... like a corvette targeting a ground target 2,000km away as we have seen.

The link posted above has been deleted for the bullshit that it is.... just to quote from the third paragraph:

The Russian navy is a mess, and it will probably become more of a mess in the future.

An article that originally appeared in the National Interest.

This article does not belong in this thread, which is about the Gorshkov.

It does not belong on this forum.

There are still so much udaloys, slavas and sovremennys to replace, that it doesn't matter if it will be gorshkov or super gorshkov, they simply need to replace these aging ships.

The ships they will be building now will be in service for the next 3-4 decades so it makes sense to get them right.

Pleasing fanbois on websites probably does not enter their criteria for what they should or should not do.

Gorshkov




Kasatonov


https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2049639.html

The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov

https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2050501.html

George1 wrote:The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov  

https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2050501.html

It's pretty much 2018 already. Nice they get one frigate

KiloGolf wrote:

George1 wrote:The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov  

https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2050501.html

It's pretty much 2018 already. Nice they get one frigate

FFS, yes the delays are a disappointment, but you know full well that this is a completely new design with new sensors & weapons & battle management systems, so why piss and moan about it?  Who gives a flying fuck?  The ship will be accepted when all bugs are worked out,  system integration is in full compliance to spec, and the Navy is FULLY satisfied.   This is a warship, not a shitcan F-35.  Engine supply issues mean they have plenty of time to get her correct and not repeat the installation issues with Kasatanov (eg dodgy radar cabling), so they are doing it right.  Shake her until she fails, then fix her and do it again.  Rinse & repeat until she's sorted, then apply teh lessons to her sisters.

That's the way to build a warship.  Not by pushing them out to satisfy a bureaucrats schedule and then having to go back and fix the problems on a number of units once they are eventually solved.  Just because the USAF/USN is going to have to rebuild a load of pre-serial F-35s doesn't mean the RuN wants to follow the same 'exceptional" path with the 22350s.

Big_Gazza wrote:FFS, yes the delays are a disappointment, but you know full well that this is a completely new design with new sensors & weapons & battle management systems, so why piss and moan about it?  Who gives a flying fuck?  The ship will be accepted when all bugs are worked out,  system integration is in full compliance to spec, and the Navy is FULLY satisfied.   This is a warship, not a shitcan F-35.  Engine supply issues mean they have plenty of time to get her correct and not repeat the installation issues with Kasatanov (eg dodgy radar cabling), so they are doing it right.  Shake her until she fails, then fix her and do it again.  Rinse & repeat until she's sorted, then apply teh lessons to her sisters.

That's the way to build a warship.  Not by pushing them out to satisfy a bureaucrats schedule and then having to go back and fix the problems on a number of units once they are eventually solved.  Just because the USAF/USN is going to have to rebuild a load of pre-serial F-35s doesn't mean the RuN wants to follow the same 'exceptional" path with the 22350s.

Bureaucracy and bad management caused these delays. Same as in the F-35 but on a much smaller scale.
In both cases the platforms are super capable and promising. In practice, they're very very late and expensive.

1 frigate --> 11 years to induct.
<insert slow clapping>

There are 2 ways to conduct see trials.

1st is rubber-stamping PR show that allows any barley floating junker to enter service. Case in point Zumwalt  trials.

2nd is genuine trials to verify built ship is actually complaint to contracted specifications. Case in point Gorshkov trials.

Which country practices which of those two methods is easily discernible by rejection and delay rate during trials. Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.

On  another hand fact that in US and its satellites it is practically unheard of that military ship gets delayed or rejected during trials indicates more what kind of "trials" they actually practice, then it indicates absence or presence of theatrical issues, or compliance to contractual specifications.

The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov

As someone on Balancer put it 'The final final final final phase of tests'
I'll believe it when I see a St George cross flying.

Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.

On the other hand Severodvinsk & 20380 have been in service but not fully operational.

hoom wrote:On the other hand Severodvinsk & 20380 have been in service but not fully operational.

Really? In what respect?  Don't tell me - a sandwich toaster has broke an element, and the toilet next to the engine control room doesn't flush.....

Yeah sure, compared to the LCSs being unable to travel under their own power, or the Zumwalts not having any advanced ammo for their main cannons, I'd call any issues with Severodvinsk and 20380s to be par for the course in any warship.