MH-17 downing: Data and update

MH-17 investigation trundles on. I woner if the Malaysians are checking out all the parts that apparently Ukraine kept back in Kiev?

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko extended the stay of Malaysian experts investigating the downed MH17 passenger jet over Donbass to August 18, 2016, the Ukrainian Parliament announced on its website Wednesday.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – "[The extension] was returned with the president’s signature [on December 30, 2015]," the Verkhovna Rada’s website reads.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151230/1032488100/mh17-ukraine-poroshenko.html#ixzz3vnhFeEzh

Bellingcat at it again. From Interfax

Dutch prosecutors have said they will "seriously study" claims by citizen journalists to have identified Russian soldiers implicated in the crash of flight MH17, shot down over eastern Ukraine in July 2014, The Guardian wrote on January 4. The claims have been made by a British-based group of "citizen investigative journalists" called Bellingcat, which specializes in trawling through data on social media and other open sources, the Guardian said.

In an interview with the Dutch TV channel NOS on Sunday, January 3, Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins said his organization had now identified 20 soldiers in this brigade. This is "probably" the group that either knows who fired or has that individual among its number, Higgins said. The sources for this include photos posted on the Internet and army data about personnel deployment that was available online, NOS said. It added that a redacted version of the report should be published "shortly."

"We received the report just after Christmas," Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch prosecutor's office, reported on Sunday. "We will seriously study it and determine whether it can be used for the criminal inquiry," he added.

In 2014, Bellingcat reported that a BUK mobile launcher, spotted on July 17 in an area controlled by pro-Russian rebels, came from a military convoy from Russia's 53rd anti-aircraft brigade – a unit based in Kursk but sent on maneuvers near the Ukrainian border.

Question: Why Bellingcat's claims should be "seriously studied" in the first place ?

Werewolf wrote:JohninMK, seriously include links to that stuff. Want to read the comments.

The original news from the Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/04/mh17-dutch-investigators-to-study-citizen-journalist-claims-over-russians-involved-in-crash

From Interfax

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/315391.html

higurashihougi wrote:

Werewolf wrote:JohninMK, seriously include links to that stuff. Want to read the comments.

The original news from the Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/04/mh17-dutch-investigators-to-study-citizen-journalist-claims-over-russians-involved-in-crash

From Interfax

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/315391.html

Thanks.

higurashihougi wrote:Question: Why Bellingcat's claims should be "seriously studied" in the first place ?

He's a youngster (well, compared to me he is) who previously didn't even know the difference between an AK and an M16, yet tried to pass himself off as some sort of investigative expert. Think about that for a moment...
He operates from his (or his moms) flat and sits on his computer all day long and compiles "facts" from his various "sources" and blogs, and takes what he wants, discards what he doesn't, and assembles what he deems necessary into a story with a slant he wants to present.
Again, think about that for a moment...

It's absolutely and completely ludicrous.

wilhelm wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:Question: Why Bellingcat's claims should be "seriously studied" in the first place ?

He's a youngster (well, compared to me he is) who previously didn't even know the difference between an AK and an M16, yet tried to pass himself off as some sort of investigative expert. Think about that for a moment...
He operates from his (or his moms) flat and sits on his computer all day long and compiles "facts" from his various "sources" and blogs, and takes what he wants, discards what he doesn't, and assembles what he deems necessary into a story with a slant he wants to present.
Again, think about that for a moment...

It's absolutely and completely ludicrous.

He's got connections to intelligence services (MI6 et all), and that's enough to buy him constant references and adulations in the mass-media. Simple as that really.

wilhelm wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:Question: Why Bellingcat's claims should be "seriously studied" in the first place ?

He's a youngster (well, compared to me he is) who previously didn't even know the difference between an AK and an M16, yet tried to pass himself off as some sort of investigative expert. Think about that for a moment...
He operates from his (or his moms) flat and sits on his computer all day long and compiles "facts" from his various "sources" and blogs, and takes what he wants, discards what he doesn't, and assembles what he deems necessary into a story with a slant he wants to present.
Again, think about that for a moment...

It's absolutely and completely ludicrous.

Not at all. He is just doing what the White House said they were doing at the time of the MH-17 downing, getting their information from social media. Clearly he, or his 'team' have good search and analytical abilities so he could be a guy heading for the top in the new intelligence gathering world. Surprised he has not been absorbed into the operation in Cheltenham. But then maybe he has, he is getting a lot of 'push' behind his comments, which seems to suit what someone wants the world to believe.

He has initiative and ability, what he is doing makes a lot of sense to him and, whilst I disagree totally with what he says, to me.

auslander wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Militarov wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:Question: Why Bellingcat's claims should be "seriously studied" in the first place ?

"He" (you know who) was even invited to official statements regarding MH17 by Duch side. He was in first row even. Guy that 2 years ago did not know difference between AK and AR15 platform went long way. His readers and supporters on Twitter are making him "legit".

If Twitter following makes you legit then Kim Kardashian is the second coming of Jesus....

I wouldn't think Jesus had a butt that size. In fact not many women have a butt that size. In another ten years her walking away from you will look like the front end of a '58 Edsel disappearing in the primordial slime.

Not many on here will know the significance of your Edsel comment without looking it up. Something to do with us being old methinks.

MH-17 rumbles on

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — According to a letter sent by Oleg Storchevoy, deputy head of Rosaviatsia, to Dutch Safety Board Chairman Tjibbe Joustra, the Russian experts “continued their research based on the additional data specified in the final report and as a result obtained some new important facts that had been not examined in the course of the investigation."

The new facts of the Dutch report called into question include the presence of heavy air defense systems in eastern Ukraine that were not controlled by Ukrainian government forces, the fact that the aircraft was hit by a 9N314M high-explosive fragmentation warhead, that the warhead that hit the aircraft was carried by a 9M38-series missile launched by a Buk surface-to-air missile system, and the position of the missile in relation to the aircraft at the moment of detonation, as well as the area it was launched from.

The final report by the Dutch Safety Board on the MH17 crash in Ukraine ignores the fact that Kiev deliberately concealed or distorted information on real threats to the safety of civil flights arising from the military activities of Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense, Rosaviatsia said. “The conclusion made in the report…that Ukraine, having sovereign control of its airspace, was responsible for ensuring the safety of flights…appears to be incomplete and does not reflect the objective fact that Ukraine ignored safety risks for civil aircraft after unleashing hostilities in the east of the country.”

The full text of the letter has been posted on Rosaviatsia's official website.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160114/1033107563/mh17-report-ukraine-russia.html#ixzz3xJ5ayKW7

Full report, including the 12 page letter, in English is at http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/storchevoys-letter-to-dutch-safety.html

JohninMK wrote:MH-17 rumbles on

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — According to a letter sent by Oleg Storchevoy, deputy head of Rosaviatsia, to Dutch Safety Board Chairman Tjibbe Joustra, the Russian experts “continued their research based on the additional data specified in the final report and as a result obtained some new important facts that had been not examined in the course of the investigation."

The new facts of the Dutch report called into question include the presence of heavy air defense systems in eastern Ukraine that were not controlled by Ukrainian government forces, the fact that the aircraft was hit by a 9N314M high-explosive fragmentation warhead, that the warhead that hit the aircraft was carried by a 9M38-series missile launched by a Buk surface-to-air missile system, and the position of the missile in relation to the aircraft at the moment of detonation, as well as the area it was launched from.

The final report by the Dutch Safety Board on the MH17 crash in Ukraine ignores the fact that Kiev deliberately concealed or distorted information on real threats to the safety of civil flights arising from the military activities of Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense, Rosaviatsia said. “The conclusion made in the report…that Ukraine, having sovereign control of its airspace, was responsible for ensuring the safety of flights…appears to be incomplete and does not reflect the objective fact that Ukraine ignored safety risks for civil aircraft after unleashing hostilities in the east of the country.”

The full text of the letter has been posted on Rosaviatsia's official website.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160114/1033107563/mh17-report-ukraine-russia.html#ixzz3xJ5ayKW7

Full report, including the 12 page letter, in English is at http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/storchevoys-letter-to-dutch-safety.html

Well, I finally read the letter. They come up with several 'new important facts' (clearly a legal phrase) that severely question the Dutch Final Report. Either the Dutch try to ignore the Russian letter or they have a bit of a problem. Anyone who thinks that this might go to any court, other than of the kangaroo kind, with any chance of a conviction is deluding themselves.

In outline the conclusions are:

- Bow tie fragments are not from 9N314M warhead, too thin (my comment is that very very few were recovered from the hundreds created)
- Holes in fuselage don't match 9N314M bow tie fragments
- Fragment of 9M38 missile body found at crash site doesn't match expected shape after detonation
- Assumed detonation point doesn't match warhead's fuse algorithm, too close to nose of 777
- Assumed detonation point doesn't match 9N314M spray area with evidence on fuselage
- Concluded launch area doesn't match specification and operating principles of 9M38, Russian calculations show launch in area of Zaroshchenskoye.

Also that there is no evidence to confirm claim in report that the An-24 and Su-25 were downed by a 'heavy' SAM like the Buk.

Under the terms of the Chicago Convention and protocols of ICAO, Ukrainian airspace should have been closed in April 2014. So Ukraine has a liability.

Chapter and verse analysis of the MH-17 saga, basically homing in on Kerry's comment shortly after the incident, that the US knew exactly where it was launched from, that turned into silence on that issue. A long but interesting read covering all the key points.

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/15/mh-17s-unnecessary-mystery

More on MH-17. This time in the ECHR where Ukraine is being pursued for not shutting its airspace. Another John Helmer investigation where he is teasing out the behind the scenes shenanigans. These are the first couple of paras

The European Court of Human Rights is refusing to act on a year-old case from the daughter of a Dutch passenger killed when Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down on July 14, 2014. Denise Kenke, daughter of Willem Grootscholten, accuses the Ukraine Government of failing its legal duty to prevent civilian aircraft from flying into the airspace Ukrainian officials knew to be dangerous. Her court papers say the claim is also founded on the conclusion of the Dutch Safety Board, reported last October, that the government in Kiev had been negligent in failing to act on “sufficient reason for closing the airspace above the eastern part of Ukraine”.

Although the 11-page application was filed on November 17, 2014, the Court has imposed a secrecy blackout on all details of the case, preventing website access. After Kenke’s lawyer, Elmar Giemulla of Berlin, a leading German aviation law specialist, filed additional argument, legal precedents, and evidence from the Dutch Safety Board (DSB), the Court refused to acknowledge receipt or to reply. Tracey Turner-Tretz, spokesman for the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) and its registrar, Roderick Liddell, a British national, said this week: “the application in question was granted confidentiality.”

The whole stinking evasive mess is at http://johnhelmer.net/?p=14997#more-14997

Neutrality wrote:I think people on this website will find this recent piece of news VERY interesting. It's about flight MH17 and failure on Ukraine's part to notify EUROCONTROL about 3 non-operational radars in Eastern Ukraine at the time of the disaster:

http://politiek.tpo.nl/2016/02/02/mh17-oekraine-mellde-uitstaan-radars-niet-aan-eurocontrol/

Translation by Google: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpolitiek.tpo.nl%2F2016%2F02%2F02%2Fmh17-oekraine-mellde-uitstaan-radars-niet-aan-eurocontrol%2F

The Dutch are slowly getting there.

Joe Sultana promised to come with more information this week. It will be very interesting to hear what this man has to say.

Good find. Its not new news but its good that the Dutch are clearly pursuing the Ukrainian duty of care aspect i e that MH-17 should not have been there in the first place.

Bet the Dutch are interested in the dates those radars were out of service, not that the records won't have been tampered to suit Kiev.

https://www.rt.com/news/331833-mh17-dutch-probe-ignore/

Desperate for answers that would shed the light on who fired the BUK missile that allegedly hit the passenger plane on July 17, 2014, and dissatisfied with the slow-moving Dutch probe, the relatives have turned to the heads of several states, including Russia’s. On January 22, they sent a letter to Putin, asking about the primary data from radars and satellites, which they think is crucial.

"We did not impose any conditions or restrictions regarding further use and disclosure of radar data, records of phone conversations and other data we submitted to the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) at its request. Moreover, Russia has stored all that data to this day, and is willing to provide it once again to the relevant authorities," said Storchevoy.

Moscow provided the Netherlands with radar and other data on the MH17 crash but it has all been ignored, a Russian aviation official said, responding to the relatives of Dutch victims who recently wrote to President Vladimir Putin.

Oleg Storchevoy, the deputy head of Rosaviatsia, the agency representing Russia in the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash investigation, has personally addressed the relatives of the victims in a lengthy letter.

"I would like to emphasize that Russia is strongly committed to establishing the actual cause of the crash, and has consistently done everything in its power to help find out the truth, both throughout the course of the technical investigation and following its official completion," he said.