Russia's 6th-generation fighters

Video of Detonation Ramjet Engine

Another project by Foundation for Advanced Study is liquid rocket engine demonstrator operating in continuous spin detonation mode

More details https://fpi.gov.ru/projects/fiziko-tekhnicheskie-issledovaniya/detonatsionnyy-dvigatel/

Video of the Engine Tested

The KLA talked about the work on the creation of the sixth generation fighter

KUBINKA (Moscow region), June 25 - RIA Novosti. Russian science and industry are working to create a backlog for sixth generation fighters, said the general director of the United Aircraft Building Corporation (UAC), Yuri Slyusar.

"Both we and science are working to create the necessary groundwork for the transition to the sixth generation," he said on the TV channel "Star" during the forum "Army-2019".

Slyusar added that the developments concern power plants and materials. According to him, a set of requirements for fighters of the sixth generation has not yet been formulated.

https://ria.ru/20190625/1555896855.html

Prospects for the creation of a new generation aviation complex

In a special issue of the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper dated July 29, 2019, an interesting article was published by the Deputy Director for Development of Sukhoi Design Bureau, Deputy Chief Designer Viktor Popik. The bmpd blog cites the text of this material.


Scientific and technical reserve for the future

In aviation, they say that there was a design situation for creating a promising next-generation complex, after the necessary scientific and technical groundwork (NTZ) was created for all the most important technologies.

Consider these areas starting with materials and technologies. Speaking about the fighter, or about the next generation aircraft in general, all world and domestic experts agree that one of the main features of the aviation complex of the future is the presence of the so-called smart design, which is a power composite or metal panel with integrated control systems. It will be equipped with appropriate sensors, which will allow in the process of flying online to measure the level of stresses of elements, calculate and predict their resource. In the event of a defeat by enemy weapons, according to the built-in control system, the affected area will be determined, and the aircraft’s onboard central computer will make the necessary changes to the aircraft’s control system to continue the flight. Thus, the combat survivability of the aircraft is seriously increased.

Regarding the internal power frame of the aircraft - its future lies in designs created according to the principle of bionic design using additive technologies and 3D printing. Designed using specialized software, the design of the aircraft resembles the skeleton of a living organism. Due to this design, it will be easier and more rigid, and thanks to the use of 3D printing, the products will become more technological.

The second direction of NTZ formation is non-traditional aerodynamic configurations. In particular, foreign specialists in their activities show interest in aircraft with gas-dynamic aircraft control systems.

Attractive layouts with adaptive mechanization, which allows you to "smoothly" change the contours of the aircraft for specific flight conditions while maintaining their smoothness. These technologies make it possible to obtain an aerodynamic design of an airplane with adaptive elements. It attracts designers from the point of view of the ability to provide a combination of high maneuverability of the aircraft with an extremely low level of radar visibility.

The third area of ​​research is related to the improvement of on-board equipment. Here, first of all, it is worth noting the development of electronic systems.

In the framework of studies of the future airplane, the possibility of creating a radio-photon radar is most actively discussed in print. It also examines no less interesting prospects for the development of distributed radio systems, in which electronic sensors are distributed over all the edges and surfaces of the aircraft complex, providing a circular electronic view.

We are studying, in particular, the simultaneous integration in the airborne radar station (BRL) of the functions of today independent systems: radar, electronic intelligence, jamming, communications and navigation. This option is not accidental.

The 6th generation aircraft should be even more inconspicuous. If we talk about ways to achieve this goal, it is necessary to take into account that one of the significant contributions to the visibility of the aircraft is its antenna compartments. The more there are, the higher the radar visibility of the aircraft, in addition, the antennas of the connected radio stations are omnidirectional. When transmitting information on air, the aircraft unmasks itself. One way to solve the problem of ensuring low visibility in this case may be the transmission of information by a narrow beam. Abroad, one of the options is the use of a phased array antenna. In this case, distributed phased array antennas are required, including those operating in the rear hemisphere of an aircraft. Such an antenna array can simultaneously solve all the previously mentioned tasks.

Intellectualization of the aircraft

Currently, there is an active development of the complex of on-board equipment (BWC) of the aircraft, which gives very serious positive results. For example, the Su-35 is built on the basis of a modernized airframe and fourth-generation engine. However, in its combat characteristics, it significantly surpasses classmates due to its developed avionics.
Therefore, speaking of medium-term prospects for the development of the potential of the combat complex, three directions should be noted.

The first is the improvement and development of its computing systems. At this stage, each new system is several times, or even an order of magnitude superior to its predecessors in performance. With more powerful computing tools integrated into a single computer network, it is possible to program a large number of tasks and accelerate the transfer of information between all aircraft systems to solve the most complex and costly tasks using all available on-board computing tools.

If before each system had its own calculator, which solved a certain range of tasks, now the designers have come to the stage when there will be a unified computer network on board. It will begin to independently distribute its resources to solve problems, depending on their priority and the workload of aircraft systems.

The next direction is the intellectual support of the crew. Su-57 already has such a powerful system, which can be called a full-fledged second "electronic pilot." It suggests options for battle tactics, automatically distributes targets, calculates various scenarios and gives recommendations for improving the effectiveness of actions.

Further development of such systems will lead to the possibility of creating an intelligent board that can effectively operate and even fight in an automatic mode without human intervention.

The third important direction is the creation of network-centric weapons systems, when the aircraft becomes one of the elements of a single network on the battlefield and exchanges information with all its participants in real time.

The solution to all these problems realigns the design bureau.

Since the beginning of this century, Sukhoi Design Bureau has been actively working on the integration of on-board equipment and the development of on-board software. Today, there are 50 percent more specialists in units dealing with issues related to on-board equipment than in traditional aircraft departments that solve the problems of creating a glider, a power plant and general aircraft systems.

It should be noted that even now at the 5th and subsequent generation air carriers, when creating a unified aircraft network, the emphasis is on the domestic element base, in particular on Elbrus processors.

Promising next-generation aviation systems will have to unite a whole group of new promising technologies, which should bring it to a qualitatively new technological level, significantly surpassing today's military aircraft systems.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3760814.html

MiG and Sukhoi jointly develop a sixth generation fighter

MOSCOW, July 16 - RIA Novosti. The MiG and Sukhoi companies will develop the sixth generation combat aviation complex together, Ilya Tarasenko, director general of MiG and Sukhoi, said in an interview with RIA Novosti .

“Our competitors are American and European aircraft manufacturers. And to maintain strong leadership in the industry, we need to consolidate the best competencies that exist today in MiG and Sukhoi and create new sixth generation aircraft. Combining capabilities within common tasks and common goals is a tremendous opportunity to make a major breakthrough. Foreign companies no longer have such opportunities, "Tarasenko said.

Answering the question whether the sixth generation aircraft will be a joint development of MiG and Sukhoi, the agency's interlocutor answered in the affirmative. "Yes, it will be the development of the UAC military aviation division ," he explained.

Currently in Russia, mass production of fifth-generation Su-57 fighters has begun . The first aircraft should go to the Russian Aerospace Forces this year.
Ilya Tarasenko was appointed to the post of CEO of Sukhoi in February this year by decision of the board of directors. Thus, he combines three positions - in addition to Sukhoi, Tarasenko leads the MiG corporation, and is also responsible for marketing and military-technical cooperation at the United Aircraft Corporation.

https://ria.ru/20200716/1574435841.html

The UAC military aviation division would also include Yakovlev as well...

It is good to hear they are prepared to use cooperation as well as competition... if done right can save a lot of wasted time and effort...

GarryB wrote:The UAC military aviation division would also include Yakovlev as well...

It is good to hear they are prepared to use cooperation as well as competition... if done right can save a lot of wasted time and effort...

Also Ilushin, Tupolev and Irkut, but you are talking about the fighters developers right?

What I think is important is to "break" the relationship between the design and the factory.
It will free the Russian air force procurement plan from the need to load some factory's. They should be more flexible.

During Soviet times design bureaus were given certain tasks but equally sometimes given tasks outside their area of speciality... a good example was Lavochkin, which ended up in making space and long range weapons.

Factories should not be tied to design bureaus per say, but having their factories meant better relationships with the design bureaus like there are with engine companies and radar and other avionics specialists...

The development of a sixth generation fighter and a promising helicopter can be included in the new state armament program for 2024-2033

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=543327&lang=RU

depressing that MIG and Sukhoi are working on a Suig. AS I feared the uniqueness of the two bureau will be blended. It will become another LocMart of NOrgrum.

Are they talking about applying 6th gen ideas to the new light fighter... the Su-75/ MiG equivalent single engined light fighter, it seems rather premature to talk about replacing the Su-57, and the MiG-41 is supposed to be an interceptor rather than multirole aircraft...

Of course the urgency for a 6th gen aircraft is more critical in the west with the abject failure of the F-22 and F-35.... and lack of other viable alternatives that are currently vapourware.

Well that is true, but they also tend to blend the generations because before the US came up with such sales points you just started developing a new replacement plane when the most recently designed model went into service and the technology and equipment developed for the next gen aircraft is often deployed on the current gen fighter for testing and also because it should improve performance and applying it to previous gen aircraft means you get the benefit of the new gen tech faster and into more widespread service.

Late model MiG-23s and MiG-25s got IRSTs at a time when they were developing the MiG-29 and Su-27 which had them from the beginning.

I would suspect the light 5th gen fighter would benefit rather more from being fully multirole, or as the French say Omnirole for Rafale...

The Su-57 should focus on dealing with enemy air power and enemy air defences for which its stealth and speed and range makes it suitable, while a light 5th gen fighter should spend most of its time dealing with ground targets and air targets it does not make sense to use a heavy fighter against... like CAS aircraft, Helicopters, and of course drones.

It is interesting that the Russian AF was not really ready for multirole aircraft and rejected MiG-29SMTs because they didn't want multirole aircraft.

The MiG-29SMT would have been ideal to replace the MiG-21 in its short range interception and light attack swing role, and also to replace the MiG-23/MiG-27 combination all wrapped into one aircraft that could perform both roles.

dont want to kill the mood for 6th gen aircraft talks but can we have a significant reduction on news information from enthusiasts and more news on articles that talk about engines, missiles, stealth material, radars, avionics, etc? I am just getting tired of expecting some good news only to be show regurgitated talks of 6th gens with nothing new that isnt known already. Same shit for the PAK DP thread as well please.

In many cases there is no real reason to replace 4++ gen aircraft anyway.

The role of the Su-35/30 and Su-57 is to be the big boy, the long range fighter bomber dominator that clears the skies of enemy fighters and enemy air power... they are more capable but that comes at a purchase and operational cost.

There is no reason to believe this domination role has to be 4++ or 5th gen so at the moment they have both.

In terms of the lighter cheaper aircraft... the MiG-35, Su-75, MiG-LFMS, questions remain.

The concept of the light fighter is lower costs so you can operate them in large numbers in a way that is affordable.

The numbers are good to help deal with surprise attacks and enemies trying to overwhelm your defences... having 8 MiG-35s is more effective than having 3 or 4 Su-35s even if the 3 or 4 Su-35s carry the same number of weapons, the extra MiGs can be in different places and can concentrate on more targets at once.

As I said however questions remain... the light fighter compliments the heavy fighter by adding numbers while keeping a level of quality, but is it actually possible to have an affordable light fighter in the 5th gen or does the stealth requirements just make it too expensive to achieve?

Another question is... is the future role of light numbers aircraft going to be a manned aircraft or moving forward could that role be taken by a drone?

To make these decisions the Russian AF needs experience with MiG-35s in operational units... are they as cheap and effective as claimed.

They also need operational experience with a 5th gen light fighter, which is going to take time.

I would say by 2030 they will have enough data on their new light 5th gen fighters to work out if it is affordable and how it compares to a light 4++ gen fighter in the light role.

It might turn out that the Su-35 is good enough for many roles, while Su-57 is better in some and is affordable so they operate both.

It might turn out that MiG-35s and MiG-LMFS are complimentary too and can be produced in large numbers to fill the gaps in the Russian AF in terms of Frontal Aviation swing role fighter bombers.

It might turn out that they decide the heavy fighter needs to be 5th gen and the light fighter doesn't need stealth so the 4++ gen fighter will do... that would free up Su-35 and Su-75 for export, for which both would be popular in my opinion.

We simple just don't know how each is performing though I suspect Su-35s were considered successful and so were the Su-57s... but any experience will come with new ideas and upgrades and changes to designs which is all good too.

dont want to kill the mood for 6th gen aircraft talks but can we have a significant reduction on news information from enthusiasts

Normally I would agree, but I think the bullshit term 6th gen fighter is so vague and is essentially a marketing term that we need discussions just to work out what they even mean by 6th gen.

Right now the F-35 doesn't supercruise so it is still a 5th gen fighter?

There are lots of new technologies that might be considered necessary to make the 6th gen the 6th gen instead of 5++ gen.

You put 5th gen avionics into a 4th gen fighter... so far that seems to make it a 4++ gen rather than a -5 gen...

Putting the D-30F6 15 ton thrust engines of the MiG-31 into the MiG-25 to replace its old 11 ton thrust engines might allow the MiG-25 to supercruise... put a big arse AESA radar and modern missiles and what have you got? Was it a 3rd gen fighter to start with? Does that make it a 4++ gen fighter?

The sixth generation is a long way away.

If you look at wiki some claim the Gripen is already a 6th gen fighter...

But who decides what is which generation?

How do we define the different generations?

GarryB wrote:
But who decides what is which generation?

How do we define the different generations?

It seems to me that it is US, with the largest R&D and manufacture of aircraft, that, through their PR, defines what is what.

Once they have announced what they will regard as the next gen, this is often as much a mechanism for extracting more money from US politicians as it is a technical leap forward, then the RoW falls in and compares their products to it.

Whether the product is actually needed is seldom relevant in the US, it is all about creating the illusion of need to continue the MIC gravy train. Until they run out of money.

I think that we ought to made a distinction between the chassis, its own electronics andengines.
I mean, the new F-15EX will sport an Aea radar i.e. something that we associate with the 5th generation and new, more powerful engines BUT those things would not add anything to his own chassis design:it would not gain the capability to operate at high AoA or get supermaneuverability.
So it would still lack features that even a baseline Su-27 actually have.
IMHO in absence of something that will change quite extensively your own flight parameter, you will not get a change in generation.

So, we have the MiG-31BM, the Su-27SM3 and the Su-30Ms being still in the 4 generation, the Su-30SM and the Su-34 in the 4+ and the Su-35 in the 4++.
Only one that could possibly get a change of status would be the Su-30SM2 IF it would get not just the Irbis radar and the 117S engine but also the 2.5 or 3D TVC.
For the same reason you can understand all doubt that still surround the MiG-35 instead: despite all the improvement made it doesn't get such a relevant change in its own flight parameters compared to a MiG-29SM.

It seems to me that it is US, with the largest R&D and manufacture of aircraft, that, through their PR, defines what is what.

Certainly marketing departments use such terms but in fact such terms are really meaningless... essentially 5th gen just means designed from the ground up to be stealthy, but I am sure the French would claim the Rafale is a 5th gen in that regard... it is all so messy and therefore meaningless.

When talking about the F-22 supercruising was described as part of 5th gen design but when the F-35 turned into such a dog that requirement was removed by many... the concept of heavy and light fighters suggests supercruising really only is practically useful if you operate over a decent distance in air superiority mode which light fighter are unlikely to need to do.

Which raises the factor that if you leave it to the Americans to define then such a system would work for American types but not so well for foreign types.

Other factors are things like AESA radar, well MiG-31s have a PESA and the most important part of an AESA is the electronic scanning part... the ESA.... and I would suggest the MiG-31 can probably also supercruise too.

Once they have announced what they will regard as the next gen, this is often as much a mechanism for extracting more money from US politicians as it is a technical leap forward, then the RoW falls in and compares their products to it.

Well exactly... it is not a measure of progress or development, it is a criteria for cost... it costs 10 times more because it is stealthy from this direction at certain times of the day...

Whether the product is actually needed is seldom relevant in the US, it is all about creating the illusion of need to continue the MIC gravy train. Until they run out of money.

Exactly... features are important when their aircraft can do them, and are air show gimmicks when they can't... things like tail slides or operating from grass strips and ignored as circus tricks in the west, but in the Ukraine operating away from airfields is what keeps Ukrainian aircraft alive... till they take off or a drone spots them.

It is very important because technology advances continuously. You cannot stop developing yours, or you will wake up with outdated equipment in 10-20 years. Fortunately, Russians don't stop. They keep developing their technology.

That is not what I am talking about... all the 4.5 or 4+ or 4++ just shows further development and upgrades, but by definition you shouldn't be able to make an aircraft change generation with upgrades, but as with the .5s and + and ++ it is clear that upgrades do change the generations.

The first gen seem to be subsonic aircraft with no radar or air to air missiles, but that does not mean you can't put radar and air to air missiles and with new engines improve performance beyond that generation. Second gen seem to be transsonic and add missiles, while third gen seem to be supersonic and with missiles and radar, while fourth generation are the more modern wing aircraft (ie not swept wings), and the 5th gen are designed from the outset to be stealthy.

So you would put MiG-15 in the first gen. MiG-17 and MiG-19 would be second gen and MiG-21 and MiG-23 would be third gen. Fourth gen would be MiG-25, MiG-29, Su-27, MiG-31, or would MiG-25 be third gen? Fifth gen is Su-57 and MiG-41 and Su-75.

You can add stealth to 4th gen but not enough to make them 5th gen.

The light 5th gen fighter appears to be going to be a single jet engined aircraft, though that is not certain.

true wrt lighter fighters/ or drone fighters yet MiG-35 is out. It's almost 50 year's old design and restarting fully blown production doesn't seem to be cheaper then Su-75. following this example why MiG-29 derivative not 23 or 21 with constant upgrades?

Because a base level MiG-29 is already much better in every way than even the best MIG-23 or MiG-21 except acceleration for the MiG-23 of course.

The T-55 was the most produced tank in history but the Russians don't continue to use it in large numbers, they use the T-72 as their numbers tank because it has better armour and a standard gun and a more powerful engine etc.

Upgrade options for the T-55 actually include replacing its turret with the turret of a T-72 as an upgrade... making the hull longer to add extra armour, to enlarge the engine... what you end up with after upgrading a T-55 is a tank quite like a T-72 but you have to spend a lot of money for that upgrade, while taking a T-72 from storage you don't have to make a lot of changes to it to upgrade it to T-72BM3 level... which is better than any upgrade for the T-55 because it is cheaper.

Same problem with the MiG-21 and MiG-23, there are limits to what and how much you can upgrade everything... the MiG-29 has rather more growth potential and is still in production... low rate production, but still production.

They appear to want to get their new 5th gen light fighter into production and testing so they can work out how expensive they will be to operate... if they work out to be as expensive to operate as an Su-35 then they need to decide if their stealth is critical or if MiG-35s will do.

The F-35 is horribly expensive, but the real kicker is its operational costs which means most countries that operate it wont be operating many or very often because it just costs too much to fly them. This means your crews and pilots wont get lots of practise and will suffer and your defensive power actually reduces because of this super plane.

The reason the US bought F-16s was because they couldn't afford an air force that only had F-15s as a standard fighter plane for everyone. It wasn't the costs to buy but the costs to operate that number of big heavy planes that led to the smaller lighter slower aircraft being introduced.

unless Russia plans to sell many of MiG-35s this project is dead ended. Look what is happening now last 3years?

They will likely unify the design with the MiG-29KR, and try to win the light naval fighter contract when their new carriers start getting more active.

Sounds like Egypt is actually rather happy with their MiGs so it is not all doom and gloom some pretend it is.

The MiG-35 is not a replacement for the Su-35 and the Su-35 is not a replacement for the MiG-35... they compliment each other and when used together they actually are more effective than either on their own.

Who decided that there was an age of steam or electricity?

Most aircraft carriers and nuclear power plants still use steam...

IMHO in absence of something that will change quite extensively your own flight parameter, you will not get a change in generation.

And that is the problem because the generation is used as a marketing tool so the F-15EX will be called a 5th gen lite aircraft... the features of a 5th gen fighter but for a 4th gen fighters price (except it will still be eye wateringly expensive when it actually comes time to pay the bill).

For the same reason you can understand all doubt that still surround the MiG-35 instead: despite all the improvement made it doesn't get such a relevant change in its own flight parameters compared to a MiG-29SM.

Put new generation RD engines of 10 tons thrust each or the proposed 12 ton thrust models for the 5th gen light fighter, and an AESA radar or even a photonic radar that covers the entire skin of the aircraft and renders the aircraft radar invisible without requiring a complete reshape because aerodynamically it is already an excellent shape and what gen do you call it?

I mean no matter what definition you make for each generation changes can be made to shift the generation, but are there any aircraft that actually shift?

There was talk of putting Al-31s in MiG-23s... well how about the new engines for the Su-57 being put into a MiG-23, with AESA radar and other computer based upgrades... does it remain stuck in the 3rd gen because it essentially is a swept wing fighter?