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Georgian Politics Thread
GarryB- Posts : 39071
Points : 39567
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
medo likes this post
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2424
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Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
Adding here some more details concerning a post from the Ukrainian thread.
Well concerning Ossetia and Abkhazia for Georgia, that is a similar story as Kosovo for Serbia.
It is their land that in the past has been too passively welcoming of nomadic settlers coming from abroad. And at one point these "guests" kicked the local inhabitants away from their own houses.
About this problem wrote already
Mikheil Javakhishvili
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikheil_Javakhishvili
100 years ago. One good example was his famous novella Jaqo's Dispossessed (ჯაყოს ხიზნები; Jakos Khiznebi), first published in 1924.
In this story Jaqo was an ossetian man working for a Georgian noble, prince Teimuraz Khevistavi, a good but naive and indecisiv intellectual.
http://irmaratiani.ge/intellectual-problem.htm
The ossetian Jaqo, robs prince Teimuraz of his fortune, his beautiful and beloved wife Margo, and even of his sanity.
This was of course an allegory of the situation between the Georgians and the coming nomadic settlers that were welcomed in the country.
We face of course a similar issue in Europe with uncontrolled migration that was never even intended to be integrated with the indigenous population.
I am not saying that there should never be immigration, I am living in a foreign country myself.
However it is not possible, and it is extremely dangerous to accept passively an invasion of people from a totally different cultural background that do not want to be "integrated" in the hosting country.
It is a totally different situation than the one present in the Roman empire, where many different people of different cultures and ethnicity were reunited under Rome.
An example of this was when Julius Caesar allowed the leaders of romanised Gauls from Gallia Cisalpina (current northern Italy) into the Roman Senat.
Some of the ancient Roman elites were offended that "barbarians" would be coming to the senate, but these romanised Gauls had been under Roman governance for many decades, they dressed like Romans, they spoke Latin and their kids were educated in the Roman way.
Russia as well is trying to finding a solution to the issue of having many ethnicity under the same banner. They are allowing the cultural and linguistical development of the autonomous Republics (e.g. Cecenia and Tatarstan) as long as they accept also their belonging to the "russian world" (even without being "Russkii"(i.e. ethnic russian).
Sujoy wrote:Having suffered a massive defeat in Ukraine, the U.S is now trying to set Russia's southern border on fire
Azerbaijan is invading Armenia
Tajikistan is fighting Kyrgyzstan
Taliban are shelling Uzbekistan
Chechen opposition is unifying
Georgia is contemplating a referendum on taking back Ossetia
Kazakhstan is necking with China
I just want here to reiterate that the situation in Georgia has nothing to do with that in the Ukraine, and that because of mistakes from both sizes the relationship between Georgia and Russia has been ruined (and this is another mess caused by Gorbaciov, Shevardnadze and Eltsin).
Well concerning Ossetia and Abkhazia for Georgia, that is a similar story as Kosovo for Serbia.
It is their land that in the past has been too passively welcoming of nomadic settlers coming from abroad. And at one point these "guests" kicked the local inhabitants away from their own houses.
About this problem wrote already
Mikheil Javakhishvili
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikheil_Javakhishvili
100 years ago. One good example was his famous novella Jaqo's Dispossessed (ჯაყოს ხიზნები; Jakos Khiznebi), first published in 1924.
In this story Jaqo was an ossetian man working for a Georgian noble, prince Teimuraz Khevistavi, a good but naive and indecisiv intellectual.
http://irmaratiani.ge/intellectual-problem.htm
The ossetian Jaqo, robs prince Teimuraz of his fortune, his beautiful and beloved wife Margo, and even of his sanity.
This was of course an allegory of the situation between the Georgians and the coming nomadic settlers that were welcomed in the country.
We face of course a similar issue in Europe with uncontrolled migration that was never even intended to be integrated with the indigenous population.
I am not saying that there should never be immigration, I am living in a foreign country myself.
However it is not possible, and it is extremely dangerous to accept passively an invasion of people from a totally different cultural background that do not want to be "integrated" in the hosting country.
It is a totally different situation than the one present in the Roman empire, where many different people of different cultures and ethnicity were reunited under Rome.
«[Roma] sospes nemo potest immemor esse tui [...] | Fecisti patriam diversis gentibus unam; | profuit iniustis te dominante capi; | dumque offers victis proprii consortia iuris, | Urbem fecisti, quod prius orbis erat.»
O Rome, no one, as long as he lives, will be able to forget you (...) You have gathered different peoples in a single country,
your conquest has benefited those who lived without laws.
By offering the vanquished the legacy of your civilization, you have made a single city of the whole divided world. "
(Rutilio Namaziano, De reditu suo (the Return, I, 52, 63-66)
An example of this was when Julius Caesar allowed the leaders of romanised Gauls from Gallia Cisalpina (current northern Italy) into the Roman Senat.
Some of the ancient Roman elites were offended that "barbarians" would be coming to the senate, but these romanised Gauls had been under Roman governance for many decades, they dressed like Romans, they spoke Latin and their kids were educated in the Roman way.
Russia as well is trying to finding a solution to the issue of having many ethnicity under the same banner. They are allowing the cultural and linguistical development of the autonomous Republics (e.g. Cecenia and Tatarstan) as long as they accept also their belonging to the "russian world" (even without being "Russkii"(i.e. ethnic russian).
kvs- Posts : 15144
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Join date : 2014-09-11
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South Ossetia is a small part of Georgia. The argument about nomadic tribes does not apply to North Ossetia since that was never
part of Georgia.
The problem with South Ossetia is all due to the the criminal clown Gamsakhurdia who was pursuing the usual ethno-chauvinist nationalist
ethnic cleansing. It has nothing to do with the history dating to centuries before. Every freaking tribe has an issue with every other
tribe and if we are going to apply the logic that these "grievances" are to be used as policy foundations, then the whole planet needs
to be covered in microstates. Utterly non-functional "countries" spanning a few square kilometers to a few dozen. Then these microstates
can fission some more because of local accents and "serious incidents" involving trash talk and insults.
part of Georgia.
The problem with South Ossetia is all due to the the criminal clown Gamsakhurdia who was pursuing the usual ethno-chauvinist nationalist
ethnic cleansing. It has nothing to do with the history dating to centuries before. Every freaking tribe has an issue with every other
tribe and if we are going to apply the logic that these "grievances" are to be used as policy foundations, then the whole planet needs
to be covered in microstates. Utterly non-functional "countries" spanning a few square kilometers to a few dozen. Then these microstates
can fission some more because of local accents and "serious incidents" involving trash talk and insults.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2424
Points : 2591
Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
I believe I already posted this earlier (I have it saved on my phone) but I will post it again as it is relevant.
Concerning the request from the south Ossetians to hold referendum there to join Russia... Well even if they do it Russia is not obliged to take them, and I hope they don't.
The issue in Georgia is much different than the Ukrainian one.
First of all Georgia had an independent state identity and culture and literature since earlier than most (if not all) current European nations (all things that Ukraine did not have until very recently).
Second Ossetians and abkazians were guests in Georgian territories (like albanian kosovars in Serbia) and were never the majority in those lands (before the war in 1993 Georgians were still the majority in Abhkazia). They basically lost that war because the Georgian army did not initially defend the territory as there were parts of the army faithful to Zviad Gamsakhurdia (the first Georgian president ousted (in a coup?) by Shevardnadze (possibly with Eltsin help) and other another part of the army taking orders from Shevardnadze, so they kept watching each other instead of solving the situation in Abkhazia (while many citizen were slaughtered and other were forced to flee).
Georgians had also their share of responsibility in the mess, as among some of Gamsakurdia followers (called sviadists, from his first name) there were also criminals and nationalists that used the civil unrest to do their worst against fellow countrymen (in Italy we had the same after the US invasion of southern Italy in WW2, when many criminals (and many people that until the day before were parts of the fascist paramilitary forces (blackshirts, i.e. camicie nere) "joined" the partisans to be able to continue committing violence, robbery, rapes and murders under a new banner).
Some of these "followers" of Gamsakurdia (but not himself) said that Georgia should be only for georgians, making the situation even worse.
Many of these so called zviadist had nothing to do with Zviad Gamsakurdia himself, they were just criminals or crazy nazi like people only looking for blood and massacre under the "protection of a civil war.
I believe Gamsakurdia himself was just a stupid (i.e. typical academically smart person but that is incapable of taking good decisions) idealist with good charisma but incapable of any real political leadership and that was possibly pushed from abroad to create problems for Russia (as he was a former Soviet dissident).
Basically he was one of the many "useful idiots" that the west put against Russia, to be thrown into the bin afterwards.
We have a partial example in the neighboring Armenia and Pashynian, that managed to provoke Azerbaijan in a conflict after pissing off their only real ally and losing most of karabak in the process.a
Anyway in the war in 1993 some of the abkazians were responsible for war crimes, like torturing and killing ethnic Georgian civilians and prisoners (including also some horrible acts on the corpses).
Zhiuli Shartava, the Georgian head of the of the Abhkaz regional government, together with other politicians refused to flee Sokhumi when the city fell to the Abkhazian separatists and was taken prisoner by the militants. All of them were killed while prisoners and Shartava himself was tortured before being killed.
As we get outraged by some of the acts committed by Ukrainian Neonazis we should remember that in the past similar or worse acts were committed by groups at least partially supported by Russia.
There are now more Georgian refugees from Abkhazia (in the rest of Georgia, than ethnic abkazians currently in Abhkazia.
Currently only in Gali and possibly a couple of other places there are still ethnic Georgians living in Abhkazia (while the current abkazian authorities are trying to call them "georgianized abkazians" (bullshit, since they are ethnic Georgians, with most of them megrellians).
Until 2008 possibly the situation could still had a small chance of a future diplomatical solution, but Sakashvili (a US puppet), confident in NATO support, tried to use force to recover control of Tskhinvali region (South Ossetia, called "Samachablo by the Georgians), injuring and killing also russian peacekeepers.
Russia used the occasion to show the world that it was not
a fallen nation and that it wanted security in its sphere of influence, basically going for a Kosovo scenario in these two regions of Georgia.
However even now the area controlled by the Ossetians continue to expand south with the rasor-wire fence being moved (I do not know if by Russian or Ossetian troops) every now and then to include new parts of land previously in Georgian control.
I understand that a Georgia in NATO it is a no go for Russia and that was a message to the west (especially after the speech from Putin at Munich conference in 2007).
Practically Georgia became a collaterally damage in a confrontation between Russia and the west. The rose revolution in 2003 when Shevardnadze was ousted and Sakashvili came into power was a western operation, but the seeds were all there. Shevardnadze was another corrupt and incompetent politician, and the Georgians were angry with Russia because of the support that Eltsin gave to the abkazians in the 1993 war. (I possibly believe that Eltsin did that under "suggestions" from his USA handlers)
Georgians see the behaviour of Russia during the 1993 war as a second betrayal of Russia (after the one from zaristic time, when imperial Russia annexed Russia even if previously in 1783 signed an agreement according to which it would have preserved Georgian (the kingdom of kartli-kakhety, basically east Georgia (at that time Georgia was split in several small kingdoms and principates)) sovereignity in exchange of some russian control of Georgian foreign affairs.
However in that occasion Russia did not protect Georgia from a Persian invasion and actually annexed Georgia a few years later.
Unfortunately Russia again (in the 1990s) made a lot of promises to Georgia but it was either too weak or not really independent, so it broke the trust of its potential ally.
If I am not mistaken than during the 1993 war Eltsin was making pressures on Shevardnadze to join the CSTO (Collective security treaty organisation, an intergovernmental military alliance of post Soviet countries), but even with Georgia joining it it did not change anything on the status of the breakway regions and felt bitterly betrayed by Russia.
Again, the situation with the breakway regions of Georgia has nothing in common with the Ukraine situation but it is very similar to what happened to Serbia and Kosovo (and partially in Bosnia with the conflict between Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Serbs)..
Georgians wrongly thought (and many still think) that they need American help against Russia, and do not understand that they are just used.
Furthermore many believe that Ivanishvili (an oligarch and former prime minister, that currently is the puppeteer of the Georgian political leadership) is a Russian agent. Actually he is a sort of Georgian Kolomoiski, a rich bastard that has only his own interest in his mind (it is probably true that he owns some assets in Russia but he is definitely not pro Russia). Current Georgian government is definitely not pro Russia (while the pro Sakaashvili opposition says that) and it is made by inepts and corrupt people but at least is trying to keep a neutral position in the Ukrainian crisis (officially criticising Russia but not participating to sanctions to Russia or offering military help to Ukraine).
However the vision that many Georgians have is pro NATO and pro EU (mainly thanks to the propaganda and to the rage they have for their occupied territories). There is no independent television there offering an alternative approach and many Georgians do not speak other languages or do not have access to independent foreign media (the situation here reminds me of Italy...) So they also believe all the Ukrainian propaganda. Most Georgians do not really believe that Ukraine attacked the Donbass in 2014 or that there was persecution on the russophone population. Furthermore I even believe that many of them do not understand that at least half of the Ukrainian population are actually ethnic Russians (except the western ukrianians of course).
I know it is sad, but they also received a lot of bad "gifts" from Russia, and many decided that they did not want to have anything to do with Russia anymore and wrongly thought that asking NATO help would improve the situation (instead of actually creating a security problem for Russia that had to be resolved in a "hard" way).
Also it does not help the behaviour of some russian tourists in Georgia that behave like they own the place (a bit like some American tourists, but for Georgia it is worse since Russia is their neighbor).
Conclusion
I know that a solution that could be acceptable and actually working could only be for Georgia to be military neutral and stop military cooperation with NATO and kick out western NGOs and close the US Biolabs (I know for sure of one in Tbilisi, I do not know if there are more).
The problem is that Georgia would need something back, and they do not trust Russia anymore.
The only solution for Abkhazia and Samachablo (aka south Ossetia) would be to come back as parts of Georgia, possibly with special autonomy status (e.g. Georgian as official language and Russian and Abkhaz or Ossetian as minority language).
Possibly with Russia keeping the bases in Abkhazia as part of the agreement with Georgia.
And of course allow the "internally displaced persons" (e.g. Georgians that had to flee the breakway republics) to come back to their homes. In this case most places would still need to be rebuilt and I believe Russia could help in exchange of kicking out the Americans from Georgia.
Before that there should be also a proper investigation on the war crimes from the previous wars and perpetrators, if still alive, have to face justice.
It would be a nice gesture, however, from the Russian government, to admit the not exactly fully honest behaviour and promises they had with Georgia in the past (both in the 90s and in zarist time).
Note:
Georgian adherence to the 1783 treaty of Georgievsk prompted Persia's new ruler, Agha Mohammad Khan, who had sent several ultimatums, to invade.
Persia wanted to restablish suzerainty over the region Russia did nothing to help the Georgians during the disastrous Battle of Krtsanisi in 1795, which left Tbilisi sacked and Georgia ravaged (including the west Georgian kingdom of Imereti, ruled by Erekle II's grandson, King Solomon II).
Then 5 years later Georgia was annexed by Russia.
Furthermore the autocephaly of Georgian orthodox church (which it was much older than the russian orthodox church) was terminated and many religions painting and icons were destroyed or repainted over in Russian style.
Concerning the request from the south Ossetians to hold referendum there to join Russia... Well even if they do it Russia is not obliged to take them, and I hope they don't.
The issue in Georgia is much different than the Ukrainian one.
First of all Georgia had an independent state identity and culture and literature since earlier than most (if not all) current European nations (all things that Ukraine did not have until very recently).
Second Ossetians and abkazians were guests in Georgian territories (like albanian kosovars in Serbia) and were never the majority in those lands (before the war in 1993 Georgians were still the majority in Abhkazia). They basically lost that war because the Georgian army did not initially defend the territory as there were parts of the army faithful to Zviad Gamsakhurdia (the first Georgian president ousted (in a coup?) by Shevardnadze (possibly with Eltsin help) and other another part of the army taking orders from Shevardnadze, so they kept watching each other instead of solving the situation in Abkhazia (while many citizen were slaughtered and other were forced to flee).
Georgians had also their share of responsibility in the mess, as among some of Gamsakurdia followers (called sviadists, from his first name) there were also criminals and nationalists that used the civil unrest to do their worst against fellow countrymen (in Italy we had the same after the US invasion of southern Italy in WW2, when many criminals (and many people that until the day before were parts of the fascist paramilitary forces (blackshirts, i.e. camicie nere) "joined" the partisans to be able to continue committing violence, robbery, rapes and murders under a new banner).
Some of these "followers" of Gamsakurdia (but not himself) said that Georgia should be only for georgians, making the situation even worse.
Many of these so called zviadist had nothing to do with Zviad Gamsakurdia himself, they were just criminals or crazy nazi like people only looking for blood and massacre under the "protection of a civil war.
I believe Gamsakurdia himself was just a stupid (i.e. typical academically smart person but that is incapable of taking good decisions) idealist with good charisma but incapable of any real political leadership and that was possibly pushed from abroad to create problems for Russia (as he was a former Soviet dissident).
Basically he was one of the many "useful idiots" that the west put against Russia, to be thrown into the bin afterwards.
We have a partial example in the neighboring Armenia and Pashynian, that managed to provoke Azerbaijan in a conflict after pissing off their only real ally and losing most of karabak in the process.a
Anyway in the war in 1993 some of the abkazians were responsible for war crimes, like torturing and killing ethnic Georgian civilians and prisoners (including also some horrible acts on the corpses).
Zhiuli Shartava, the Georgian head of the of the Abhkaz regional government, together with other politicians refused to flee Sokhumi when the city fell to the Abkhazian separatists and was taken prisoner by the militants. All of them were killed while prisoners and Shartava himself was tortured before being killed.
As we get outraged by some of the acts committed by Ukrainian Neonazis we should remember that in the past similar or worse acts were committed by groups at least partially supported by Russia.
There are now more Georgian refugees from Abkhazia (in the rest of Georgia, than ethnic abkazians currently in Abhkazia.
Currently only in Gali and possibly a couple of other places there are still ethnic Georgians living in Abhkazia (while the current abkazian authorities are trying to call them "georgianized abkazians" (bullshit, since they are ethnic Georgians, with most of them megrellians).
Until 2008 possibly the situation could still had a small chance of a future diplomatical solution, but Sakashvili (a US puppet), confident in NATO support, tried to use force to recover control of Tskhinvali region (South Ossetia, called "Samachablo by the Georgians), injuring and killing also russian peacekeepers.
Russia used the occasion to show the world that it was not
a fallen nation and that it wanted security in its sphere of influence, basically going for a Kosovo scenario in these two regions of Georgia.
However even now the area controlled by the Ossetians continue to expand south with the rasor-wire fence being moved (I do not know if by Russian or Ossetian troops) every now and then to include new parts of land previously in Georgian control.
I understand that a Georgia in NATO it is a no go for Russia and that was a message to the west (especially after the speech from Putin at Munich conference in 2007).
Practically Georgia became a collaterally damage in a confrontation between Russia and the west. The rose revolution in 2003 when Shevardnadze was ousted and Sakashvili came into power was a western operation, but the seeds were all there. Shevardnadze was another corrupt and incompetent politician, and the Georgians were angry with Russia because of the support that Eltsin gave to the abkazians in the 1993 war. (I possibly believe that Eltsin did that under "suggestions" from his USA handlers)
Georgians see the behaviour of Russia during the 1993 war as a second betrayal of Russia (after the one from zaristic time, when imperial Russia annexed Russia even if previously in 1783 signed an agreement according to which it would have preserved Georgian (the kingdom of kartli-kakhety, basically east Georgia (at that time Georgia was split in several small kingdoms and principates)) sovereignity in exchange of some russian control of Georgian foreign affairs.
However in that occasion Russia did not protect Georgia from a Persian invasion and actually annexed Georgia a few years later.
Unfortunately Russia again (in the 1990s) made a lot of promises to Georgia but it was either too weak or not really independent, so it broke the trust of its potential ally.
If I am not mistaken than during the 1993 war Eltsin was making pressures on Shevardnadze to join the CSTO (Collective security treaty organisation, an intergovernmental military alliance of post Soviet countries), but even with Georgia joining it it did not change anything on the status of the breakway regions and felt bitterly betrayed by Russia.
Again, the situation with the breakway regions of Georgia has nothing in common with the Ukraine situation but it is very similar to what happened to Serbia and Kosovo (and partially in Bosnia with the conflict between Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Serbs)..
Georgians wrongly thought (and many still think) that they need American help against Russia, and do not understand that they are just used.
Furthermore many believe that Ivanishvili (an oligarch and former prime minister, that currently is the puppeteer of the Georgian political leadership) is a Russian agent. Actually he is a sort of Georgian Kolomoiski, a rich bastard that has only his own interest in his mind (it is probably true that he owns some assets in Russia but he is definitely not pro Russia). Current Georgian government is definitely not pro Russia (while the pro Sakaashvili opposition says that) and it is made by inepts and corrupt people but at least is trying to keep a neutral position in the Ukrainian crisis (officially criticising Russia but not participating to sanctions to Russia or offering military help to Ukraine).
However the vision that many Georgians have is pro NATO and pro EU (mainly thanks to the propaganda and to the rage they have for their occupied territories). There is no independent television there offering an alternative approach and many Georgians do not speak other languages or do not have access to independent foreign media (the situation here reminds me of Italy...) So they also believe all the Ukrainian propaganda. Most Georgians do not really believe that Ukraine attacked the Donbass in 2014 or that there was persecution on the russophone population. Furthermore I even believe that many of them do not understand that at least half of the Ukrainian population are actually ethnic Russians (except the western ukrianians of course).
I know it is sad, but they also received a lot of bad "gifts" from Russia, and many decided that they did not want to have anything to do with Russia anymore and wrongly thought that asking NATO help would improve the situation (instead of actually creating a security problem for Russia that had to be resolved in a "hard" way).
Also it does not help the behaviour of some russian tourists in Georgia that behave like they own the place (a bit like some American tourists, but for Georgia it is worse since Russia is their neighbor).
Conclusion
I know that a solution that could be acceptable and actually working could only be for Georgia to be military neutral and stop military cooperation with NATO and kick out western NGOs and close the US Biolabs (I know for sure of one in Tbilisi, I do not know if there are more).
The problem is that Georgia would need something back, and they do not trust Russia anymore.
The only solution for Abkhazia and Samachablo (aka south Ossetia) would be to come back as parts of Georgia, possibly with special autonomy status (e.g. Georgian as official language and Russian and Abkhaz or Ossetian as minority language).
Possibly with Russia keeping the bases in Abkhazia as part of the agreement with Georgia.
And of course allow the "internally displaced persons" (e.g. Georgians that had to flee the breakway republics) to come back to their homes. In this case most places would still need to be rebuilt and I believe Russia could help in exchange of kicking out the Americans from Georgia.
Before that there should be also a proper investigation on the war crimes from the previous wars and perpetrators, if still alive, have to face justice.
It would be a nice gesture, however, from the Russian government, to admit the not exactly fully honest behaviour and promises they had with Georgia in the past (both in the 90s and in zarist time).
Note:
Georgian adherence to the 1783 treaty of Georgievsk prompted Persia's new ruler, Agha Mohammad Khan, who had sent several ultimatums, to invade.
Persia wanted to restablish suzerainty over the region Russia did nothing to help the Georgians during the disastrous Battle of Krtsanisi in 1795, which left Tbilisi sacked and Georgia ravaged (including the west Georgian kingdom of Imereti, ruled by Erekle II's grandson, King Solomon II).
Then 5 years later Georgia was annexed by Russia.
Furthermore the autocephaly of Georgian orthodox church (which it was much older than the russian orthodox church) was terminated and many religions painting and icons were destroyed or repainted over in Russian style.
GarryB- Posts : 39071
Points : 39567
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Tiblisi made the same mistake that Kiev did... there were regions that were upset within their borders and they used weapons and violence to try to resolve the issue... essentially they were trying to genocide the problem of foreigners on their territory.
No country can find that acceptable.... no matter how much you dress the aggressors up as the victims.
No country can find that acceptable.... no matter how much you dress the aggressors up as the victims.
Backman- Posts : 2605
Points : 2617
Join date : 2020-11-11
There's a CIA regime change protest happening in Georgia now. But isnt the president already a US groomed puppet ?
ALAMO- Posts : 6767
Points : 6857
Join date : 2014-11-25
Post kvs Yesterday at 11:46 pm
@ALAMO
All that caused by the single shovel captured in the video!
There are two shovels on the vid, I have just passed by the first as there was some poor khokhol fertilizing the earth in the background.
But don't worry, the shovel saga will continue!
Post Backman Today at 7:43 am
There's a CIA regime change protest happening in Georgia now. But isnt the president already a US groomed puppet ?
She is, and that is the point.
Georgian parliament voted the "foreign agent" law with a crushing 76:13 number.
She commented on spot that will veto it, while ... being in the US.
So what we are witnessing now, is a coup against democratically elected parliament and a try to strive it from the constitutional prerogatives.
This **** was a French citizen a while ago, and represent a typical Soros-sponsored path of career.
She was born in France and worked in a French MFA. Appointed an ambassador in Georgia in 2003, was her first visit to this country since 1986
In 2004, thug Saaka appointed her a minister of foreign affairs post, while she was still a French citizen
All the foreign agent criteria apply to her directly.
And the sponsored mob is on the streets with a false flag slogan of "eurointegration" nothingburgers.
Edit : I have told you, this thing won't stop now for a while, people having a good laugh on that
Kiev received a Kinzhal it seems, and didn't like that.
@ALAMO
All that caused by the single shovel captured in the video!
There are two shovels on the vid, I have just passed by the first as there was some poor khokhol fertilizing the earth in the background.
But don't worry, the shovel saga will continue!
Post Backman Today at 7:43 am
There's a CIA regime change protest happening in Georgia now. But isnt the president already a US groomed puppet ?
She is, and that is the point.
Georgian parliament voted the "foreign agent" law with a crushing 76:13 number.
She commented on spot that will veto it, while ... being in the US.
So what we are witnessing now, is a coup against democratically elected parliament and a try to strive it from the constitutional prerogatives.
This **** was a French citizen a while ago, and represent a typical Soros-sponsored path of career.
She was born in France and worked in a French MFA. Appointed an ambassador in Georgia in 2003, was her first visit to this country since 1986
In 2004, thug Saaka appointed her a minister of foreign affairs post, while she was still a French citizen
All the foreign agent criteria apply to her directly.
And the sponsored mob is on the streets with a false flag slogan of "eurointegration" nothingburgers.
Edit : I have told you, this thing won't stop now for a while, people having a good laugh on that
Kiev received a Kinzhal it seems, and didn't like that.
Last edited by ALAMO on Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total
GarryB, franco, kvs, GunshipDemocracy, Hole, Mir and Belisarius like this post
GarryB- Posts : 39071
Points : 39567
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Ironically the laws the Georgian government is putting through is about foreign funded NGOs having to declare themselves as foreign funded and therefore foreign agents and the "people" are protesting because it is undemocratic or some such nonsense.
Russia introduced such laws about 10 years ago and it is actually based on an American law from the late 1930s to stop foreign countries buying influence in your country.
It is clearly George Soros and similar snakes that are objecting to such laws because being described as a foreign agent creates mistrust and suspicion (where there should be mistrust and suspicion) and they don't want that... they want to operate under the radar... without being noticed...
The current CIA puppet has said she will veto it, and the EU is now threatening Georgia over this too...
https://www.rt.com/russia/572661-eu-georgia-democracy-foreign-agents/
https://www.rt.com/russia/572655-georgia-protests-continue/
Surprise Surprise... the US is supporting the protesters despite having exactly the same law themselves...
Russia introduced such laws about 10 years ago and it is actually based on an American law from the late 1930s to stop foreign countries buying influence in your country.
It is clearly George Soros and similar snakes that are objecting to such laws because being described as a foreign agent creates mistrust and suspicion (where there should be mistrust and suspicion) and they don't want that... they want to operate under the radar... without being noticed...
The current CIA puppet has said she will veto it, and the EU is now threatening Georgia over this too...
EU threatens Georgia over ‘foreign agent’ law
https://www.rt.com/russia/572661-eu-georgia-democracy-foreign-agents/
https://www.rt.com/russia/572655-georgia-protests-continue/
Surprise Surprise... the US is supporting the protesters despite having exactly the same law themselves...
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There is a whole manual for that.After that, they dug meters deep, hundreds of meters wide, and tens of meters in the echelon.
Nevetheless some of our specialists here will state that the VKS is doing nothing.Multiple hits across 404.
Georgia was mentioned here, so...
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@Alamo
Talking about Kinzhals
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/17086421
what's the complication a bit of stamped steel sheet and a wooden handle
@GB
Georgian ruling party withdraws ‘foreign agents’ bill after protests
https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/georgian-ruling-party-withdraws-foreign-agents-bill-after-protests/
Talking about Kinzhals
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/17086421
"Of course. It [Kinzhal] has been on the assembly line for a long time. It's just that initially it didn't require as much quantity as it does now, so we are now increasing [production volume]," Chemezov said on the air of the Military Acceptance program on the Zvezda Plus TV channel. ".
what's the complication a bit of stamped steel sheet and a wooden handle
@GB
Georgian ruling party withdraws ‘foreign agents’ bill after protests
https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/georgian-ruling-party-withdraws-foreign-agents-bill-after-protests/
Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cant make it up. NGOs stir massive protests over law exposing NGOs. Law is based on a law here in America from the mid 30s. I'm so sick of debating idiots. So tired of seeing idiots protest against their own sovereignty.
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Some of them are being well paid for that.
And some are just regular morons.
And some are just regular morons.
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So the story seems to now be that the Georgian pro EU government decided to back down and have dropped the new law to reveal western countries using NGOs to control their country and the protesters are still not happy.
It seems that the west is not satisfied with pro EU government members, they want bitches that do exactly what the US and the EU says and they are not prepared to start a second front against Russia to help Kiev and the EU and US so they are likely going to try a another colour revolution and get some real sleasy bitches in there that don't mind sloppy seconds and are prepared to destroy their country and lose people in a new conflict with Russia they can't win... they probably wouldn't win just fighting South Ossetia and Abkhazia to be honest but once the pro georgian politicians are gone and the muppets are in place there will be provocations or just an attack... probably the same in Moldova and if they can get them in to HATO fast enough why not Finland too... proxy wars are fun because the only people from your side that die are the ones you send and you never send friends or family... just soldiers of poor people and foreigners.
It seems that the west is not satisfied with pro EU government members, they want bitches that do exactly what the US and the EU says and they are not prepared to start a second front against Russia to help Kiev and the EU and US so they are likely going to try a another colour revolution and get some real sleasy bitches in there that don't mind sloppy seconds and are prepared to destroy their country and lose people in a new conflict with Russia they can't win... they probably wouldn't win just fighting South Ossetia and Abkhazia to be honest but once the pro georgian politicians are gone and the muppets are in place there will be provocations or just an attack... probably the same in Moldova and if they can get them in to HATO fast enough why not Finland too... proxy wars are fun because the only people from your side that die are the ones you send and you never send friends or family... just soldiers of poor people and foreigners.
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So when the Russians restore order in Georgia does Stalin's statue get restored?
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Maybe they should introduce a law against foreign meddling...
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Was amusing how all the English language protest signs started getting pointed out and soon after started seeing the native language signs lol. Russia needs to leak which NGOs and groups are directly involved in this. Maybe go further and start eliminating enemies. They need to get on a war footing in their intelligence apparatus.
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Russia needs to leak which NGOs and groups are directly involved in this. Maybe go further and start eliminating enemies. They need to get on a war footing in their intelligence apparatus.
The irony is that Russia would not have gotten involved in the Ukraine if the US and EU didn't get Kiev to push and keep pushing... banning the Russian language and Russian culture... what other country on the planet has banned a language?
What makes it ironic is that while Kiev shelling Ukrainians in their eastern provinces was not Russias business the pro Russian people of the Crimea saw what was happening and essentially kicked Kiev out and invited the Russian troops there to take control (they already had control so no shooting was required) while they had a vote over joining growing and relatively wealthy Russia with which they shared a language and culture and history, or stay with Kiev who has no funding and is the most corrupt country on the planet and is currently banning their language and culture meaning they have to learn a made up language and fund kiev though taxes they don't get any return on.
Russia got Crimea back, but they also got a war which they didn't really want, but they had very few better alternatives because that is what the US and EU and UK have been doing in the Ukraine.... creating problems for Russia.
With Georgia I think Russia has nothing to gain at all... let them be... the current government make up is all pro EU and pro west... but they are not blind idiots prepared to sacrifice their people and territory because it currently suits the US and EU.
The current Georgian government are anti Russia, the west is calling them pro Russia because they don't want to start a conflict they know they can't win and perhaps lose even more territory and men.
For the US that is not good enough... they are spending money and ammo and weapons and are getting desperate and what they are thinking is if they could expand the fronts the Russians have to deal with they might accept peace terms they would not accept right now, so the US wants Georgia and any former Soviet Republic with a border with Russia to start an open conflict/fight to dilute their attention and forces, and Georgia probably has ammo in the calibres Kiev wants too that they have not shared.
For the US Georgia is western friendly but not doing what it is told so obviously regime change is the solution and lets get some extremist nutters in... and lets get a war going there too... or at least get those ammo stores open and supporting Kiev.
Current Georgia is not interested in fighting Russia... they know it wont get their lost territories back, and will cost them tens of thousands of men and money spent on their military they wont get back which will damage their economy and quality of life.
What they really need to do is investigate NGOs on the sly and work out who is responsible for the current protests and hit them first.
Just had a look at the CIA factbook and it notes that over 25,000 Ukrainian refugees have moved to Georgia... how many people are in these protests... in a country of almost 5 million...
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Was amusing how all the English language protest signs started getting pointed out and soon after started seeing the native language signs lol. Russia needs to leak which NGOs and groups are directly involved in this. Maybe go further and start eliminating enemies. They need to get on a war footing in their intelligence apparatus.
A lot of people are rather very angry about the protests in Georgia and even gone as far as making fun of them for how imbecile they can be and what their protests are about.
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From MoA
It's all about the Great Game, but this time the People are The People, not the elite, and the competition is for a world where people are ascendent as opposed to profit and wealth accumulation. There's also a program on Russia's TV1 called The Great Game and today Lavrov returned to its stage for an interview. I'll just provide the opening Q&A for they're outstanding both the Q and the A:
Q: I'll start with a question about the latest news. The situation in Tbilisi: the government actually met all the demands of the protesters, without any restrictive conditions, without any concessions from the protesters. Nevertheless, we hear that the protests will continue. The demands of the protesters are only growing. It's starting to resemble the Kiev Maidan of 2014. And how far, from your point of view, can this go?
Sergey Lavrov: It is very similar to the Maidan in Kiev. There is no doubt that the law on the registration of non-governmental organizations receiving foreign funding in the amount of 20% of their budget was only an excuse to start an attempt at a violent change of power.
If you take the law itself and compare it (as many political scientists have done in recent days, when the riots began in Tbilisi), then it "pales" in comparison with how the activities of non-profit organizations are regulated in the United States, France, India, and Israel. You can watch it all.
For violation of a similar law in the United States, a fine of up to 250 thousand US dollars and up to 5 years in prison as part of a criminal prosecution. In Georgia, immeasurably smaller amounts: about 9 thousand US dollars and no criminal prosecution.
Despite the fact that in a number of European countries there are much more cruel norms on this topic, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy J. Borrell, without blinking an eye, said that the law that Georgians are promoting (the ruling Party "Georgian Dream"), contradicts European values, puts the bloc on the way to Georgia's accession to the European Union. The hypocrisy is obvious.
The government, the ruling coalition, the ruling parties announced that they were finally withdrawing the law (as I heard) and that they were releasing about 170 arrested rioters. This is despite the fact that there are video evidence of the violence they have shown. It is a violation of all democratic norms and deserves prosecution. Nevertheless, the government released them. And the opposition, without any respite, said, like, no, you met us halfway only on the first issue, and now you are resigning.
The position of the West, the same US State Department, in a pathetic tone declaring the inadmissibility of such an attitude towards civil society, causes a smile. These are the very "rules" that the West is talking about. We are talking about international law, and it is talking about the "rules" on which the world order can be based. In Georgia, the opposition is not only able, but obliged to do what it wants, and in Moldova, protests against the current government are condemned. Because the opposition in Georgia reflects the interests of the West, and the opposition in Moldova reflects others, and the Western interests in this country are reflected by the government and the president.
Literally before our eyes, two similar situations with protests are unfolding. In Tbilisi, the protests were far from peaceful. As you can see, the demonstrators overturned cars, used tear gas, smoke bombs. I don't remember that in Chisinau. Even if it were a similar action, the attitude to this is fundamentally different. It seems to me that all countries located around the Russian Federation should draw conclusions from how dangerous the policy of involving the interests of the United States in the zone of responsibility is. This zone now extends to the whole world. We've talked about this before. It is no coincidence that when the United States and its NATO allies comment on the events in Ukraine, our special military operation, they demand a strategic defeat for the Russian Federation on the battlefield, directly recognizing that this is an existential conflict. Its outcome determines the interests of the West in the field of global security, the prospects for its hegemony led by the United States and the prospects for its dominance in world affairs.
It's a long transcript with the Russian video at top of page--an hour and fifteen minutes. I'm still working my way through the transcript, and from Reading TASS I know there're more gems.
Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 11 2023 2:43 utc | 203
It's all about the Great Game, but this time the People are The People, not the elite, and the competition is for a world where people are ascendent as opposed to profit and wealth accumulation. There's also a program on Russia's TV1 called The Great Game and today Lavrov returned to its stage for an interview. I'll just provide the opening Q&A for they're outstanding both the Q and the A:
Q: I'll start with a question about the latest news. The situation in Tbilisi: the government actually met all the demands of the protesters, without any restrictive conditions, without any concessions from the protesters. Nevertheless, we hear that the protests will continue. The demands of the protesters are only growing. It's starting to resemble the Kiev Maidan of 2014. And how far, from your point of view, can this go?
Sergey Lavrov: It is very similar to the Maidan in Kiev. There is no doubt that the law on the registration of non-governmental organizations receiving foreign funding in the amount of 20% of their budget was only an excuse to start an attempt at a violent change of power.
If you take the law itself and compare it (as many political scientists have done in recent days, when the riots began in Tbilisi), then it "pales" in comparison with how the activities of non-profit organizations are regulated in the United States, France, India, and Israel. You can watch it all.
For violation of a similar law in the United States, a fine of up to 250 thousand US dollars and up to 5 years in prison as part of a criminal prosecution. In Georgia, immeasurably smaller amounts: about 9 thousand US dollars and no criminal prosecution.
Despite the fact that in a number of European countries there are much more cruel norms on this topic, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy J. Borrell, without blinking an eye, said that the law that Georgians are promoting (the ruling Party "Georgian Dream"), contradicts European values, puts the bloc on the way to Georgia's accession to the European Union. The hypocrisy is obvious.
The government, the ruling coalition, the ruling parties announced that they were finally withdrawing the law (as I heard) and that they were releasing about 170 arrested rioters. This is despite the fact that there are video evidence of the violence they have shown. It is a violation of all democratic norms and deserves prosecution. Nevertheless, the government released them. And the opposition, without any respite, said, like, no, you met us halfway only on the first issue, and now you are resigning.
The position of the West, the same US State Department, in a pathetic tone declaring the inadmissibility of such an attitude towards civil society, causes a smile. These are the very "rules" that the West is talking about. We are talking about international law, and it is talking about the "rules" on which the world order can be based. In Georgia, the opposition is not only able, but obliged to do what it wants, and in Moldova, protests against the current government are condemned. Because the opposition in Georgia reflects the interests of the West, and the opposition in Moldova reflects others, and the Western interests in this country are reflected by the government and the president.
Literally before our eyes, two similar situations with protests are unfolding. In Tbilisi, the protests were far from peaceful. As you can see, the demonstrators overturned cars, used tear gas, smoke bombs. I don't remember that in Chisinau. Even if it were a similar action, the attitude to this is fundamentally different. It seems to me that all countries located around the Russian Federation should draw conclusions from how dangerous the policy of involving the interests of the United States in the zone of responsibility is. This zone now extends to the whole world. We've talked about this before. It is no coincidence that when the United States and its NATO allies comment on the events in Ukraine, our special military operation, they demand a strategic defeat for the Russian Federation on the battlefield, directly recognizing that this is an existential conflict. Its outcome determines the interests of the West in the field of global security, the prospects for its hegemony led by the United States and the prospects for its dominance in world affairs.
It's a long transcript with the Russian video at top of page--an hour and fifteen minutes. I'm still working my way through the transcript, and from Reading TASS I know there're more gems.
Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 11 2023 2:43 utc | 203
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A lot of people are rather very angry about the protests in Georgia and even gone as far as making fun of them for how imbecile they can be and what their protests are about.
That is the problem... it seems to be easy to stir up a pro west audience to protest... just say what they are protesting against is pro Russian or pro Putin and they will protest... the real problem is getting them to think about what they are protesting and why.
Western people are stupid... just look at Trump... he got into office promising to bring the troops home from never ending wars that do more harm to America than protect it from the world and he also promise more pragmatic relations with the Russians... not friendship... just cooperation where it benefited America.
And they called him Putins puppet and claimed he was a Russian tool and goaded him into putting more sanctions on Russia than had ever been put on Russia before by a US president.
People in the west are idiots.
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The Georgian Prime Minister said that the authorities will not allow the opening of a second front
Georgian Prime Minister Garibashvili: the ruling government will not allow the opening of a second front for Kiev
Prime Minister of Georgia Irakli Garibashvili Georgian Prime Minister Irakli Garibashvili said that the ruling Georgian Dream government will not allow the opening of a second military front in the country.
Earlier, the Deputy speaker of the Georgian Parliament, Gia Volski, said that against the background of the protests, a group of supporters of ex-President Mikhail Saakashvili who fought on the side of Ukraine arrived in the country to implement a revolutionary scenario.
"I know that several dozen people have come from Ukraine. I want to address them – let you have no illusions and expectations that something will happen here. Nothing will happen, brothers. I want to wish all the fighters in Ukraine to return to their families healthy, but I urge you not to succumb to dirty provocations. We know a lot more than they can imagine. The state is at the highest level today... as long as the Georgian Dream is in power, we will not allow a second front, it is excluded," Garibashvili said in an interview with Imedi TV company.
Ukraine has sent former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to his homeland to destabilize the situation in Georgia and involve the country in military operations, Georgian Prime Minister Irakli Garibashvili said on Sunday on the Imedi TV channel.
"The beginning of the war in Ukraine was expected back in November [2021], maximum in December. We had information about this, including I knew from our colleagues, partners. When did Saakashvili arrive in Georgia? The first of October. Saakashvili was sent in an organized manner, the main goal was to arrange a coup here and include the countries in the war at the right time. We have no doubt about it today," Garibashvili said. According to the prime minister, "it would probably be a kind of relief for Ukraine if Russia shifted its attention" towards Georgia. According to Garibashvili, if the opposition party "United National Movement" founded by Saakashvili had been in power, Georgia "would have turned into a landfill" and the country would have received a "second Mariupol".
Georgian Prime Minister Garibashvili:
The decision we made to revoke the law on foreign agents was the most correct and reasonable state in this situation. The goal of the instigators was chaos, the preservation of constant destabilization, unrest. They might have killed a few young people themselves for their own purposes. We said that with this step we are worried about the most important thing for all of us, about the stability of our country, the world.
https://t.me/azmilitary11/40602
Georgian Prime Minister Garibashvili: the ruling government will not allow the opening of a second front for Kiev
Prime Minister of Georgia Irakli Garibashvili Georgian Prime Minister Irakli Garibashvili said that the ruling Georgian Dream government will not allow the opening of a second military front in the country.
Earlier, the Deputy speaker of the Georgian Parliament, Gia Volski, said that against the background of the protests, a group of supporters of ex-President Mikhail Saakashvili who fought on the side of Ukraine arrived in the country to implement a revolutionary scenario.
"I know that several dozen people have come from Ukraine. I want to address them – let you have no illusions and expectations that something will happen here. Nothing will happen, brothers. I want to wish all the fighters in Ukraine to return to their families healthy, but I urge you not to succumb to dirty provocations. We know a lot more than they can imagine. The state is at the highest level today... as long as the Georgian Dream is in power, we will not allow a second front, it is excluded," Garibashvili said in an interview with Imedi TV company.
Ukraine has sent former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to his homeland to destabilize the situation in Georgia and involve the country in military operations, Georgian Prime Minister Irakli Garibashvili said on Sunday on the Imedi TV channel.
"The beginning of the war in Ukraine was expected back in November [2021], maximum in December. We had information about this, including I knew from our colleagues, partners. When did Saakashvili arrive in Georgia? The first of October. Saakashvili was sent in an organized manner, the main goal was to arrange a coup here and include the countries in the war at the right time. We have no doubt about it today," Garibashvili said. According to the prime minister, "it would probably be a kind of relief for Ukraine if Russia shifted its attention" towards Georgia. According to Garibashvili, if the opposition party "United National Movement" founded by Saakashvili had been in power, Georgia "would have turned into a landfill" and the country would have received a "second Mariupol".
Georgian Prime Minister Garibashvili:The decision we made to revoke the law on foreign agents was the most correct and reasonable state in this situation. The goal of the instigators was chaos, the preservation of constant destabilization, unrest. They might have killed a few young people themselves for their own purposes. We said that with this step we are worried about the most important thing for all of us, about the stability of our country, the world.
https://t.me/azmilitary11/40602
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Gaunt and ghostly, Georgia’s jailed ex-president nears death in hospital
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/16/mikheil-saakashvili-georgia-jailed-ex-president-nears-death-in-hospital
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He tried to agitate for a coup the moment he got back to Georgia. That is why he was arrested in the first place.
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the man is a clown and is getting what he deserves. 
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Die like Yuschenko was allegedly dying in the run up to the Orange Revolution that ended up driving sympathy for him and giving him the election, or like Timoshenko was when she was locked up by Yanukovich and the EU demanded her release, or like Navalny was after being allegedly poisoned with novichok in his underwear and with the same EU demand to allow him out for treatment?
It's the same story time and time again with these con-artists.
It's the same story time and time again with these con-artists.
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