Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

I find this article true and want to have insight about what is being done to fix this crippeling problem.


Limited Productive Capacity, High Demand for Arms and Equipment

Its quite simple really, increase capacity for existing weapons we want. Invest in promising weapons that can be delievered in short time frame and quit wasting money on fantasy projects. Also we have to put our own military needs above export orders and make sure the money isn't corrupted away into oblivion.

Simply said. But as Russia produces more and more of its quality and price competitive weapon system its order will only rise in magnitude. So that issue must be dealt fast more to it because now Russia defence orders are substantial.
Another problem is skilled workforce witch is in shortage now and will be even more in future if not properly dealth with witch at the end cozes some quality problems (Bulava). Mutch has to be done as Russia military future is as bright as a star.

The export/state balance order is already 40% for the military. It will soon be 50-50. Then comes the issue of specialisation. We can no longer afford to be masters of all technology, we must give up what we can no longer be competitive in. We have done this in our relations with France. They are now the prime suppliers of thermal imagers to the RF. We can also revitalise our shipbuilding by buying the BPC Mistral and in exchange, we sell France billions in Soyuz rockets. We have many joint projects with them such as SSJ-100, Angara rockets, GenX Heavy Lift helicopters, GenX nuclear power plants. With the French and Indians teaming up with us to develop the next generation of technologies, there really is no stopping us.

Vladimir79 wrote:The export/state balance order is already 40% for the military. It will soon be 50-50. Then comes the issue of specialisation. We can no longer afford to be masters of all technology, we must give up what we can no longer be competitive in. We have done this in our relations with France. They are now the prime suppliers of thermal imagers to the RF. We can also revitalise our shipbuilding by buying the BPC Mistral and in exchange, we sell France billions in Soyuz rockets. We have many joint projects with them such as SSJ-100, Angara rockets, GenX Heavy Lift helicopters, GenX nuclear power plants. With the French and Indians teaming up with us to develop the next generation of technologies, there really is no stopping us.

And why not?

Russia has to and will continue to do what it needs in order to sustain itself without the need of foreigners. The problem is, that most nations that would be capable of delivering technologies that Russia needs, would be blocked by other nations who dislike Russia altogether (United States).

Also, why just abandon the industries as well? Why would you want Russia to even do that? Not only would lots of people lose a job, but also technical innovation and advancement in technology would deplete. What Russia really needs to do, is get their priorities straight, and get rid of the companies holding them back, and allow the others to move on, and purchase what they need.

Example is Lockheed Martin. They build ships, they build planes, and various other equipment. Why not allow Sukhoi take that on? If there is no demand for technical innovation, then Russia will just continue with the brain drain, and eventually, the country will lose a lot of manufacturing capabilities (Ukraine as an example).

The Catherine-XP FLIR optics is something else, as a lot of foreign customers wanted parts from other countries (Update: Looking around, it seems that Russia is possibly not using French Optics, it is Indian version that uses French Thermals T-90S)(due to political aspects). The concept of buying the Mistral is only a political and economic possibility. If Russia buys the equipment, then they could indeed gain new respect amongst NATO members, as well, as half the ships need to be built in the country (so it gets more people working).

I understand your criticism, but don't say such things about what you think your industry should do. Canada was once in the aircraft and naval manufacturing facilities. Then we had this Prime Minister named Diefenbaker, who shut down many projects and facilities (Avro Arrow for one, and more nuclear power plants as another). For what? Just to please the US. Now we are tied with outdated equipment, lots of jobs where lost, and the possibility of competing in the world in arms, and being able to build our own for ourselves, was gone. And what makes it worst, is that we cannot even afford the F-35 in small batches, and our CF-118's are outdated, really outdated (equivalent to F-18 in early 90's, and we don't even have 2 dozen of them).

So we are pretty much incapable of building stuff for our own needs. Things like Catherine XP thermals is small, and you already have alternatives. But things like Ships, not only brings in lots of money, but it also is a key to defenses. Daewoo and Hyundai have their own ship building, as well, and they are doing very well.

Viktor wrote:Simply said. But as Russia produces more and more of its quality and price competitive weapon system its order will only rise in magnitude. So that issue must be dealt fast more to it because now Russia defence orders are substantial.
Another problem is skilled workforce witch is in shortage now and will be even more in future if not properly dealth with witch at the end cozes some quality problems (Bulava). Mutch has to be done as Russia military future is as bright as a star.

There are skilled workforce as in putting things together, and then there are skilled workforce in terms of research and development. For the most part, half of the warehouses and factories are run by machines (at least in most developed nations). Very few factories here have lots of people, but more or less, most are done through mechanical (I know cause I worked at one). But if you want a solution to the skilled workforce problem, you can always do what we do, is that Canadian companies are somewhat forced (in a sense to keep in the lead in competition) into providing funds and such towards education that will help the person out and be beneficial towards the company (ex: Someone in HR as a desk clerk, and if needing someone for financing, they will provide funds for that person education in the field of financing). Doesn't work 100%, but it sure is helping us, since we too are facing an issue when it comes to brain drain (actually, half the world is, since the Baby boomers are dying off and my generation and last, are not breeding enough).

Vladimir79 wrote:With the French and Indians teaming up with us to develop the next generation of technologies, there really is no stopping us.

I was just thinking as how PAK-FA merged to some point with France/Israel equipment would sell like nutc to other western countries previously held under western influence.

Vladimir79 wrote:We can no longer afford to be masters of all technology, we must give up what we can no longer be competitive in.

Agree. But still there must be no skilled workers s shortage in the traditional area Russia holds as orders continue to rise. And judging by the past and the present sky is the limit. It already stands at almost 9 annually and 34 Bin overall.

Btw ... I support Russia developing weapons in coorporation with orher nations. At the present moment I can see it as only beneficial.

Seing Medvedev and other big shots worry about the same problem gives hope everything will be take cared off. Two new S-300/400 production facilities and expanding production capabilities of fighters.

Viktor wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:With the French and Indians teaming up with us to develop the next generation of technologies, there really is no stopping us.

I was just thinking as how PAK-FA merged to some point with France/Israel equipment would sell like nutc to other western countries previously held under western influence.

Vladimir79 wrote:We can no longer afford to be masters of all technology, we must give up what we can no longer be competitive in.

Agree. But still there must be no skilled workers s shortage in the traditional area Russia holds as orders continue to rise. And judging by the past and the present sky is the limit. It already stands at almost 9 annually and 34 Bin overall.

Btw ... I support Russia developing weapons in coorporation with orher nations. At the present moment I can see it as only beneficial.

Seing Medvedev and other big shots worry about the same problem gives hope everything will be take cared off. Two new S-300/400 production facilities and expanding production capabilities of fighters.

Don't forget production of electronics, sensors, radar, optics, comm links, etc for all military base equipment. Oh, and as well as Ships. Ship building industry is one of the most profiting, so Russia needs to pick up with development (seems to do well with Talwar, etc).

But what saddens me is that how little you people know about electronics and the importance it holds within the defense community. I am not a major, but I have dabbled with software design, and my father was a electrical engineer, and worked for various US defense companies. The key components is not putting the stuff together, but the electronics and software inside. If you outsource that, then you are susceptible to counter intelligence of your hardware/software, thus making you open and prone to being defeated easily. Developing your own, and producing enough that can be competitive, will give you an edge. If you face an enemy that is more technologically advanced then others, then you will need to rely on your equipment, and that would have to come from yourself rather then elsewhere (as you designed it for your own purposes). Russia has that capability, but if you want it gone like some of you think, then prepare to lose many more industries then (as all work together for a final product). As there is, far too many companies doing all the same thing in Russia. Instead, the better rout is to drop some of the companies, and let other companies take over, kind of trimming the fat if you will.

sepheronx wrote:
Example is Lockheed Martin. They build ships, they build planes, and various other equipment. Why not allow Sukhoi take that on? If there is no demand for technical innovation, then Russia will just continue with the brain drain, and eventually, the country will lose a lot of manufacturing capabilities (Ukraine as an example).

Mutch still needs to be done to enter such proces. As for now where you need to wait for "eternity" to see some vital part developt I think joint corporation is mutch better solution because over the shorter period more weapons will be developt while at the same time most of the paying will provide joining party and Russia constructing.

sepheronx wrote:

I understand your criticism, but don't say such things about what you think your industry should do. Canada was once in the aircraft and naval manufacturing facilities. Then we had this Prime Minister named Diefenbaker, who shut down many projects and facilities (Avro Arrow for one, and more nuclear power plants as another). For what? Just to please the US. Now we are tied with outdated equipment, lots of jobs where lost, and the possibility of competing in the world in arms, and being able to build our own for ourselves, was gone. And what makes it worst, is that we cannot even afford the F-35 in small batches, and our CF-118's are outdated, really outdated (equivalent to F-18 in early 90's, and we don't even have 2 dozen of them).

Same happened to Britain. But such thing can not for oblivious reasons happen to Russia on the contrary Russia can make other countries throw joint production make dependable on its own just as USA does.

sepheronx wrote:So we are pretty much incapable of building stuff for our own needs. Things like Catherine XP thermals is small, and you already have alternatives. But things like Ships, not only brings in lots of money, but it also is a key to defenses. Daewoo and Hyundai have their own ship building, as well, and they are doing very well.

Japan/S.Korea not to mention China at first used to bought everything before they become mature to produce it on ther own. Now Im not say Russia can not produce Mistral class on their own but at the moment I think its a smart move.

^^

The only good I see coming from co-development is cost sharing. Other then that, you are opening your technologies and other stuff to possible enemies. If co-development comes in line as development for weapons/equipment meant for export, then maybe. But weapons and such for yourself? Only viable thing I can understand would be something along the lines of Ships like Mistral or something, that the design isn't going to impede on secrecy.

sepheronx wrote:
But what saddens me is that how little you people know about electronics and the importance it holds within the defense community. I am not a major, but I have dabbled with software design, and my father was a electrical engineer, and worked for various US defense companies. The key components is not putting the stuff together, but the electronics and software inside. If you outsource that, then you are susceptible to counter intelligence of your hardware/software, thus making you open and prone to being defeated easily. Developing your own, and producing enough that can be competitive, will give you an edge. If you face an enemy that is more technologically advanced then others, then you will need to rely on your equipment, and that would have to come from yourself rather then elsewhere (as you designed it for your own purposes). Russia has that capability, but if you want it gone like some of you think, then prepare to lose many more industries then (as all work together for a final product). As there is, far too many companies doing all the same thing in Russia. Instead, the better rout is to drop some of the companies, and let other companies take over, kind of trimming the fat if you will.

That thing has being take cared off. I have seen numeros articles in time as Russia was bringing in Taiwan electronic technology and trading its basic rocket technology of S.Korea electronics. It has plan to develop three like Silicon valley etc. So in time Russia will catch up while right now they posses excellent programers.

Viktor wrote:

sepheronx wrote:
But what saddens me is that how little you people know about electronics and the importance it holds within the defense community. I am not a major, but I have dabbled with software design, and my father was a electrical engineer, and worked for various US defense companies. The key components is not putting the stuff together, but the electronics and software inside. If you outsource that, then you are susceptible to counter intelligence of your hardware/software, thus making you open and prone to being defeated easily. Developing your own, and producing enough that can be competitive, will give you an edge. If you face an enemy that is more technologically advanced then others, then you will need to rely on your equipment, and that would have to come from yourself rather then elsewhere (as you designed it for your own purposes). Russia has that capability, but if you want it gone like some of you think, then prepare to lose many more industries then (as all work together for a final product). As there is, far too many companies doing all the same thing in Russia. Instead, the better rout is to drop some of the companies, and let other companies take over, kind of trimming the fat if you will.

That thing has being take cared off. I have seen numeros articles in time as Russia was bringing in Taiwan electronic technology and trading its basic rocket technology of S.Korea electronics. It has plan to develop three like Silicon valley etc. So in time Russia will catch up while right now they posses excellent programers.

What you speak of is just the basis of the electronics (the CPU), and of course Taiwan is manufacturing it, as it is cheaper. But Russia still designs the system in the country, not outside. What I get from reading Vlad's post, is that it is better to get from outside rather then within (like using Intel rather then Elbrus).

sepheronx wrote:
And why not?

Russia has to and will continue to do what it needs in order to sustain itself without the need of foreigners. The problem is, that most nations that would be capable of delivering technologies that Russia needs, would be blocked by other nations who dislike Russia altogether (United States).

Also, why just abandon the industries as well? Why would you want Russia to even do that? Not only would lots of people lose a job, but also technical innovation and advancement in technology would deplete. What Russia really needs to do, is get their priorities straight, and get rid of the companies holding them back, and allow the others to move on, and purchase what they need.

Because the budget isn't big enough to support all those industries. Not only are most of the industries bankrupt, but production facilities are obsolete. R&D has stagnated for 15 years. Our products in many catagories aren't competitive and will never be. The only ones that remain are the ones we have won export share. You can't do everything with a $1.6 trillion economy. Our exports are increasingly becoming joint ventures with other countries because the electronics of Russia are too obsolete. Countries like France, UK, and Germany have modern economies that dwarf ours but have to outsource much of their procurement. We have to do the same if we are to survive.

Example is Lockheed Martin. They build ships, they build planes, and various other equipment. Why not allow Sukhoi take that on? If there is no demand for technical innovation, then Russia will just continue with the brain drain, and eventually, the country will lose a lot of manufacturing capabilities (Ukraine as an example).

Because Suhkoi makes planes, it is there specialisation. They know nothing about shipbuilding and other equipment. Lockheed Martin is a large multinational private company winning the largest orders of a state who spends $700 billion on defence. Lockheed has managed to take over many of the smaller corporations that faced lack of capital and turned it into an empire. Suhkoi is part of a larger company, UAC, who is running in the red $3 billion annually. The Russian state isn't ready to drop $500 billion in longterm contracts to anything, much less one company.

The Catherine-XP FLIR optics is something else, as a lot of foreign customers wanted parts from other countries (Update: Looking around, it seems that Russia is possibly not using French Optics, it is Indian version that uses French Thermals T-90S)(due to political aspects). The concept of buying the Mistral is only a political and economic possibility. If Russia buys the equipment, then they could indeed gain new respect amongst NATO members, as well, as half the ships need to be built in the country (so it gets more people working).

The Catherine FC is equipping all Russian T-90S and will be expanded to other armour as production is increased. License is given to Ural Optics who makes 20-30 per month. The concept of buying the Mistral is to get the production technologies so we can start building our own ships. It doesn't earn us respect in NATO when the allies are complaining about it. It only brings us respect in France and that is all that really matters. They have everything we need.

I understand your criticism, but don't say such things about what you think your industry should do. Canada was once in the aircraft and naval manufacturing facilities. Then we had this Prime Minister named Diefenbaker, who shut down many projects and facilities (Avro Arrow for one, and more nuclear power plants as another). For what? Just to please the US. Now we are tied with outdated equipment, lots of jobs where lost, and the possibility of competing in the world in arms, and being able to build our own for ourselves, was gone. And what makes it worst, is that we cannot even afford the F-35 in small batches, and our CF-118's are outdated, really outdated (equivalent to F-18 in early 90's, and we don't even have 2 dozen of them).

It isn't what the industry 'should do', it is what the industry is doing and must do. We have reached the point where the West has surpassed us in electronics and must catch up by infusing ourselves with their technology. Just the same as Catherine the Great did and brought the Russian Empire to greatness.

I am not quite understanding or I am trying to grasp the concept of your last point.

How is Russia behind in technology? Russia is further advanced then most western countries when it comes to space technology (Only US and Russia are leading in space tech), as well, as Russia develops their own super computer processors, and various other systems (even being used in prototype PAK FA), that surpasses what a lot of western countries have.

The thing is, Fusing yourself with the west, is only promoting their market rather then yours, and you lose out. What Russia is bad at doing is providing a proper PR group for their technologies, which can do very well for universities as well as foreign entities (Elbrus makes very good processors, and there are plenty of Universities in Europe as well as Asia that would want such systems for their research). But if you remove that completely, not only will you lose out on research and development, you will lose out on the brain power to go along with it. Winnipeg's only standing leg for being alive is research and development, and that brings in lots of money, as well as gifted people.

Popular belief is that Russia is behind the west in all technologies, which is far from the truth. Yes, it is cheaper and better to produce the Catherin-FC thermals rather then your own, but that just kills off the R&D aspect, thus adhering to the Brain drain concept. As well, Russia already can build large ships, and does it at a fairable rate too (but seeing as how their industries are bogged down through orders already....). Vlad, I know you mean good for your country, but I don't think you get the whole picture here. What you are suggesting is what Canada and various other countries did long time ago. Why do you think US has lots of brain power and lots of money? It isn't because they removed industries to concentrate on something else. No, it is because they invested in R&D for nearly every industry. Let's just say that what happened to us, you don't want to happen to you. Small term - You get ahead quickly by using foreign components, Long Term - You lose out on R&D and will ultimately lose out on quality researchers and scientists/engineers. Thus if embargoes are placed, you lose out indefinitely.

Edit:

More like, what Russia should do, is try to encourage more Research and Development in their country, and provide more funding for development. They should look at what Europe and US is doing, and apply same standards (you can still buy manufacturing equipment from Germany, as well as Russia does make their own as well). Also, get the defense and civil companies to work in ties with Roscosmos. Since it is the space industry that makes the most advanced optics, communication equipment, etc. If these standards can be applied to civil and defense companies, then that can open a market for advance technologies that a lot of countries would be interested in. Rather then being tied/bogged down with western made equipment (Example is the JAS-39 Grippen. That plane does not sell very well, because it uses a lot of US equipment, and is tied down, when trying to sell, with US pressure).

sepheronx wrote:I am not quite understanding or I am trying to grasp the concept of your last point.

How is Russia behind in technology? Russia is further advanced then most western countries when it comes to space technology (Only US and Russia are leading in space tech), as well, as Russia develops their own super computer processors, and various other systems (even being used in prototype PAK FA), that surpasses what a lot of western countries have.

The thing is, Fusing yourself with the west, is only promoting their market rather then yours, and you lose out. What Russia is bad at doing is providing a proper PR group for their technologies, which can do very well for universities as well as foreign entities (Elbrus makes very good processors, and there are plenty of Universities in Europe as well as Asia that would want such systems for their research). But if you remove that completely, not only will you lose out on research and development, you will lose out on the brain power to go along with it. Winnipeg's only standing leg for being alive is research and development, and that brings in lots of money, as well as gifted people.

Popular belief is that Russia is behind the west in all technologies, which is far from the truth. Yes, it is cheaper and better to produce the Catherin-FC thermals rather then your own, but that just kills off the R&D aspect, thus adhering to the Brain drain concept. As well, Russia already can build large ships, and does it at a fairable rate too (but seeing as how their industries are bogged down through orders already....). Vlad, I know you mean good for your country, but I don't think you get the whole picture here. What you are suggesting is what Canada and various other countries did long time ago. Why do you think US has lots of brain power and lots of money? It isn't because they removed industries to concentrate on something else. No, it is because they invested in R&D for nearly every industry. Let's just say that what happened to us, you don't want to happen to you. Small term - You get ahead quickly by using foreign components, Long Term - You lose out on R&D and will ultimately lose out on quality researchers and scientists/engineers. Thus if embargoes are placed, you lose out indefinitely.

Edit:

More like, what Russia should do, is try to encourage more Research and Development in their country, and provide more funding for development. They should look at what Europe and US is doing, and apply same standards (you can still buy manufacturing equipment from Germany, as well as Russia does make their own as well). Also, get the defense and civil companies to work in ties with Roscosmos. Since it is the space industry that makes the most advanced optics, communication equipment, etc. If these standards can be applied to civil and defense companies, then that can open a market for advance technologies that a lot of countries would be interested in. Rather then being tied/bogged down with western made equipment (Example is the JAS-39 Grippen. That plane does not sell very well, because it uses a lot of US equipment, and is tied down, when trying to sell, with US pressure).

Agree with the last quote but I don't think companies like Svermash would do so !

Also with Vladimir's point : Svermash and most of our shipyards are behind the West in shipbuliding technology!

Russian Patriot wrote:

sepheronx wrote:I am not quite understanding or I am trying to grasp the concept of your last point.

How is Russia behind in technology? Russia is further advanced then most western countries when it comes to space technology (Only US and Russia are leading in space tech), as well, as Russia develops their own super computer processors, and various other systems (even being used in prototype PAK FA), that surpasses what a lot of western countries have.

The thing is, Fusing yourself with the west, is only promoting their market rather then yours, and you lose out. What Russia is bad at doing is providing a proper PR group for their technologies, which can do very well for universities as well as foreign entities (Elbrus makes very good processors, and there are plenty of Universities in Europe as well as Asia that would want such systems for their research). But if you remove that completely, not only will you lose out on research and development, you will lose out on the brain power to go along with it. Winnipeg's only standing leg for being alive is research and development, and that brings in lots of money, as well as gifted people.

Popular belief is that Russia is behind the west in all technologies, which is far from the truth. Yes, it is cheaper and better to produce the Catherin-FC thermals rather then your own, but that just kills off the R&D aspect, thus adhering to the Brain drain concept. As well, Russia already can build large ships, and does it at a fairable rate too (but seeing as how their industries are bogged down through orders already....). Vlad, I know you mean good for your country, but I don't think you get the whole picture here. What you are suggesting is what Canada and various other countries did long time ago. Why do you think US has lots of brain power and lots of money? It isn't because they removed industries to concentrate on something else. No, it is because they invested in R&D for nearly every industry. Let's just say that what happened to us, you don't want to happen to you. Small term - You get ahead quickly by using foreign components, Long Term - You lose out on R&D and will ultimately lose out on quality researchers and scientists/engineers. Thus if embargoes are placed, you lose out indefinitely.

Edit:

More like, what Russia should do, is try to encourage more Research and Development in their country, and provide more funding for development. They should look at what Europe and US is doing, and apply same standards (you can still buy manufacturing equipment from Germany, as well as Russia does make their own as well). Also, get the defense and civil companies to work in ties with Roscosmos. Since it is the space industry that makes the most advanced optics, communication equipment, etc. If these standards can be applied to civil and defense companies, then that can open a market for advance technologies that a lot of countries would be interested in. Rather then being tied/bogged down with western made equipment (Example is the JAS-39 Grippen. That plane does not sell very well, because it uses a lot of US equipment, and is tied down, when trying to sell, with US pressure).

Agree with the last quote but I don't think companies like Svermash would do so !

Also with Vladimir's point : Svermash and most of our shipyards are behind the West in shipbuliding technology!

People talk about technology this and that, but in regards to all of this, what does it all mean? If you are saying in manufacturing equipment in faster pace and less cost, then that can be dealt with. I doubt that Germany/France is not willing to sell the technology.

This is how I view what Vlad (and other Russians on other boards are saying):

"Buy the technology from other countries, and piece it together ourselves". Here is what I see a problem in that:

1) Destroys the R&D Sector, making Russia incapable of producing newer goods on their own. Ultimately reducing the economic development, and increasing in reliance on natural resources.
2) Draws out the intelligence (Engineers, Scientists, etc)
3) Allows for easier embargoes if something goes wrong in political sphere

Why else is Iran looking to produce their own goods? Maybe has something to do with Embargoes? Something to do with creating a new industry. South Africa is another example, they did not have a defense industry (where they made their own goods), until the issue came up during the Angola war, and most countries had embargoes placed on SA. Now they have a thriving defense industry....HMMMM, I wonder why?



@ 2:00, there is a pretty good explanation to further my point.

And lastly, my other point is:

Why does many nations buy Russian military equipment? It has to do with alternatives, no strings attached aspect. Many nations are turned off by US military equipment, or other NATO military equipment. It has something to do with the aspects of Embargoes and "strings attached" concept. Venezuela was incapable of producing their own spare parts, due to the deal made (and US as well as other nations are not very good on allowing the development of their equipment in other nations), and embargoes. So people turn to Russia. Russia most of the time allows for the development of spare parts in the other countries (India as an example, Vietnam as another), and as well, provides alternative electronics and hardware that is very competitive, as well as not tied to embargoes. So thus, allowing them to sell to the other nation. Now take that away. Let Russia buy equipment from other nations and let them destroy their Microprocessing industry, their manufacturing industry, their optics industry, their R&D industry (yes, many industries fall when one does, the domino effect); now rely on the west. Now lets say Georgia attacks again, or some ultranationalist from somewhere else attacks Russian citizens and or territory. Russia bites back. Now Russia has embargoes placed on them. What then? They cannot continue with the conflict because spare equipment used for the military is no longer in access. So they run out of equipment and then run out of funds as they drastically come up with alternatives to those equipment lost. So, now Russia is incapable of building it itself, and the nice concept their equipment has to many nations whom are not on the US/NATO nice list, will not want to purchase the equipment, as they too would be incapable due to embargoes. So Russia can lose out on Billions (the defense industry is one of the few industries going very strong, and produce state of the art technology, next to that of space industry).

A good quote I had read earlier:

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" - Lao Tzu

Makes perfect sense to me.

sepheronx wrote:A good quote I had read earlier:

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" - Lao Tzu

Makes perfect sense to me.

It makes sense, but we don't have the money. There isn't any other way to put it.

Vladimir79 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:A good quote I had read earlier:

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" - Lao Tzu

Makes perfect sense to me.

It makes sense, but we don't have the money. There isn't any other way to put it.

Correction, the government does not (as they have spending of other things up the rear end).

The problem is, if the government is going to take control of everything, then that leaves little room for private institutes to come up with their own. Private companies exist in a sense to be able to sell goods/services for less then what the government could, and that is how they survive. And every companies profile is to make a profit. Obviously Russia shows that they are capable of producing goods, things from microprocessors, to Space based optical sights to automobiles. And I do agree that no country is an ace in every sector (US buys a lot of goods from China and Europe), but what I am getting at is, if Russia started to privatize most of their industries or make it easier for other people to come up with their private sectors, then Russia could see an influx of industries. In the US, you can go buy a business/research license for an equivalent of $60, and then order the goods you need in order to continue your R&D, online. Russia did not have that up until a while ago. Now that there is Ebay, maybe then things will boost a bit in Russia. As it will promote banks to start handing out credit cards and other means of purchasing online, and when you do purchase online, there is always an electronic copy, so that it is hard for the corrupt to get a hold of that and not provide the products. I read somewhere that it is hard to get a business license in Russia, as well as the materials needed. In the sense that it would take a week or two in the US, would take a couple of months. So that is why Russia is behind in some things. If Russia released a lot of the technology that they make/develop for military and space equipment (Newest Server processor (Elbrus) for T-50 PAK FA, Optical systems used on satellites, microprocessors for sats, etc), then there you would have a huge high tech industry that would be making lots of money in the civi world.

Russia does not have to be major manufacturer in the world for these technologies, but they should be at least one of the leaders (pioneers) of the technology development. People in India, China, Vietnam, etc would love to have the Elbrus processors so they can set up their own super computers for their universities and such, as not only are they powerful, but they are also cheap. But due to poor PR aspect (like in a lot of Russian industries), there is not a basis for export. And that is what Russia also falls behind in. It is not that they are technologically impaired, but they don't have the capabilities to really sell it worldwide.

well this is connected to topic so I am posting it!

Russia approves new defense industry policy

RIA Novosti

19/03/201016:53

GORKI (Moscow Region), March 19 (RIA Novosti) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev approved on Friday a long-term policy for the development of the national defense industry.

The document, drawn up on the president's instructions by the Industry and Trade Ministry in conjunction with the Defense Ministry, the Federal Space Agency, and other government agencies, formulates industry policy through 2020.

"The document defines the goals, strategy, objectives and stages in the development of the defense industry," said Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov.

He stressed that development and production of modern electronic systems would be a priority for the industry in the next three to four years.

Ivanov said a special federal program for the development of the defense industry, currently being drafted, would receive around 100 billion rubles ($3.4 billion) in financing a year through 2020.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100319-rianovosti01.htm

Finally we got the direction of where the intituive techonology will be:


http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/188374/

Not really behind.

The main problem seems to be the same in all things in the Russian military.

They have stores of ammo that is getting rather old and past its use by date.

Similarly they have lots of old tanks and old planes that they need to do something with too.

The mention of using more sophisticated propellents that increase the muzzle velocity by up to 1.4 times sounds very interesting.

Even the old 7.62 x 39mm round with 40% higher velocity means a muzzle velocity of over 990 m/s for a 120 grain slug from an AKM or AK-100 series rifle.
That should put its energy in the same range as all these new 6.5mm uber rounds they keep talking about in the west.

That sort of improvement in velocity should extend effective range significantly but the question is what would its effect on the barrels of existing weapons be.

The article is also flawed in that in some areas the Russians are well ahead.

Look at the ADS assault rifle designed to fire standard 5.45mm and special 5.45mm rounds that work underwater.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as100-e.htm

Russian defense industry falls behind rivals - experts

RIA Novosti

28/04/201012:07

MOSCOW, April 28 (RIA Novosti) - Russian weapons are falling behind rival products, experts told the Rossiiskaya Gazeta government daily on Wednesday.

Russian Academy of Science members Vladimir Fortov and Igor Kalyaev said that a reduction in research funds was making it hard for Russian weapons to stay competitive and for the defense industry to produce breakthroughs.

However, last month Russian President Dmitry Medvedev approved a long-term policy for the development of the national defense industry. He stressed that development and production of modern electronic systems would be a priority for the industry in the next three to four years.

But while the Russian government has prioritized the modernization of the military-industrial complex, Fortov and Kalyaev believe this is impossible without a sound scientific foundation.

They also said that the military prefers short-term projects, with very concrete developments based on well-known principles. This approach makes Russian military equipment lag behind its rivals even at the planning stage, they said.

Without the ability to innovate, the Russian defense sector will sooner or later run into a brick wall, the experts claim.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100428-rianovosti05.htm

Falling behind only in comparison with whole world. On a 1 to 1 lvl few countries can match its level.

Last Warning to Defence
Systemic crisis facing the defense industry of breakdown in the supply of military equipment to the Russian army and the lack of export contracts
2010-04-30

Greece has suspended a contract with Russia for the supply to Athens of 420 infantry combat vehicles BMP-3. Transactions, take more than two years and stopped domestic defense enterprises of almost 1.5 billion dollars, hung in suspense. The reason for this is not well-known financial difficulties of one of the EU Member States (in Russian arms in the budget the money was deferred), Carelessly thrown at the press conference the critical phrase in the address of the poor state of machines said Deputy Minister of Defence - Chief of Armaments of the Armed Forces of Russia, Army General Vladimir Popovkin. He then said: "We really need to take care of soldiers. At the BMP now all go upstairs, because in this "coffin" Nobody wants to go. It is necessary to make another vehicle. "

Greek journalists immediately published a statement in their newspapers. And the opposition is a scandal: how to buy worthless military hardware, from which refuse even its creators?

Vladimir Popovkin expressed claims not only to the BMP, but also to the T-90 tank, which was bought by New Delhi, to combat support vehicle BMPT, which Rosoboronexport last week demonstrated at the international arms exhibition in Kuala Lumpur and also promotes the export of other military equipment, from which for whatever reasons, refused by the army, but that our country is actively promoting its export.

Exporters of arms terribly offended. Maul, General pulled for us some very lucrative contracts. But, in our opinion, the indignant murmur is not directed at that address. Saying more, such statements from domestic warlords which ventured by Vladimir Popovkin have every right to exist. Moreover, the truth about the state of the Russian military-industrial complex, about the processes that take place there, a systemic crisis in it and the failure of its individual leaders, including the government's military-industrial commission to correct the situation, not a secret. This was mentioned more than once or twice. On many different levels. Including the president.

This truth is very important. So it helps the public and the powers to identify problem areas and take some drastic measures to correct them. Focus our efforts on opening bottlenecks. In the end, to ensure the army and navy of the modern military equipment and weapons that allow them confidence to perform the task of protecting national interests.

Without an honest and frank conversation with the citizens of Russia, impartial and concerned criticism of the shortcomings that make it practically impossible. Another thing is that, according to the known proverb, "no matter how many say" paste "- a sweet in the mouth will not be" - all of these conversations and spells, unfortunately, lead to nowhere. Neither the Kremlin nor the government nor the legislative and executive authorities of the country and regions, take no serious measures to influence the lazy managers. Despite the ongoing story of the new government's weapons program, the federal programs of technological upgrading of defense enterprises, in reality, except for certain aircraft and air defense firms, nothing fundamental is happening. They say it is going, when will it be. But will it be bought?

Even today, foreign consumers of our weapons sent 33 complaints for every hundred Russian export machinery. And the scandal, "the Algerian" "MiGami", as it turned out, the domestic defense industry has not learned anything.

Yes, you can mute the criticism of defense companies that supply its products to its own army and for export to, as requested by traders of weapons, not to harm the way the military-technical cooperation with foreign countries for hard currency proceeds into the state budget and the producers of tanks. But is the low quality of most vehicles, the discrepancy of the high standards which makes the modern battle, not a counter-advertising to the product itself? Does anyone think that, if silenced domestic generals, and with them the Moscow media, military analysts and experts, it will staff serious buyers with any military prefabricated Soviet? Naive representation designed to uneducated laymen.

From this situation there are only two ways out. Being in the role of underdogs with lost export orders, and at the same time, saving orders for its own army, becoming a loser and accept it or dramatically improve the quality and effectiveness of weapons produced, to lower its price, non-production costs that are factored into every product, to strive to be at the forefront of technical and technological progress, to get rid of dependency and senseless expectations of those who will come and stifle the mother of invention. To paraphrase an old saying, we recall that the salvation of the defense in the hands of the defense itself. And no one else.

A new battle machine we do really need. And then the sniper rifles, our army is forced to buy from the British and the Finns, the amphibious assault ship - the French, they have the same - night sights for tank shells, drones from the Israelis, lightweight and durable armor - the Germans. There is already talk, too, that APCs become buy from the French. The international division of labor in the defense industry - a good thing. She brings to our country capabilities to meet the recent "potential adversaries", but soon it may happen that nuclear submarines and strategic missiles we are not able to make themselves. And its something we will not sell to anyone. And about national security, Russia will be remembered as the long-forgotten past.

So the Russians are now undermining their own defence industry.

The design of the BMP-3 is largely the fault of the Russian military demanding amphibious capability making it impossible to make with western like protection levels.

The Bradley is the same weight as the T-34 medium tank... it can still be defeated by RPGs.

And of course the other example given Algeria choosing Sukhois over MIGs is a Joke... who would take Mig-29s when they can get Flankers for the same price... it really doesn't matter about the build quality of the Mig.

I am sure when the Russian MIC collapses when customers cancel orders because of this idiot that the Chinese will make good weapons for the Russian military.