Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

That is a great news, as Lobaevs guns showed that they are in class of their own during the war.

Kiko wrote:
The "Army" forum presented the "Astarte" rifle - the "killer" of the American Barrett.

That thing is absurd overkill for replacing the Barrett's strange creation rifle on the Russian market, the barret is a piece loosely fit sheet metal and recoiling barrel. The OSV-96 was already vastly superior.

The only question I have is can they make it cheaper than the pindo pipe rifle.

Lobaev Arms already has a great Havoc model in that caliber. What's needed the most, atm, is import substitution in high precision sniper rounds. Lobaev already started making Cheytac rounds in two calibers.

caveat emptor wrote:Lobaev Arms already has a great Havoc model in that caliber.

That is a bolt action sniper rifle, what this new thing is is clearly a replacement for the semi automatic Barrett on the Civilian and international markets.

True, but in that class they already have OSV-96 and Degtyarev's rifle, ASVK.

Almost looks like a super dragunov.

Yup, monster SVCh, based on Dragunov system. I bet if Russia moves forward with current designs, Dragunov MA will become the new AK (from PDWs, Assault and sniper rifles)

Interesting the new 6.004 x 41mm assault rifle cartridge also is intended as a round for DMRs and LMGs out to 800m or so.

Here is the new SVCh sniper rifle in 7.62x54mmR calibre and also in the 6x41mm new round.

As you can see the rifle for the new intermediate round is smaller and more compact and no doubt lighter, but also with a lower recoil, but it is optimised for penetration of new body armours.



These charts show its low drag bullet design shows its muzzle velocity of about 800m/s is not amazingly high but it still appears to be supersonic at 1km range:


(Energy in joules)


(velocity in m/s)


(Note the three lines are for 6x41mm, and the existing 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm rounds from presumably a standard assault rifle length barrel.)

For more on the bullet:

Kalashnikov page on 6x41mm

GarryB wrote:
(Note the three lines are for 6x41mm, and the existing 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm rounds from presumably a standard assault rifle length barrel.)

Nah. Intrigued benchrest crowd in Russia ran some software calculations. Even with unsafe loads it does not get to this performance from 415 mm barrel. So its 1 m ballistic one more likely.

Nah. Intrigued benchrest crowd in Russia ran some software calculations. Even with unsafe loads it does not get to this performance from 415 mm barrel. So its 1 m ballistic one more likely.

There was a thread on this forum about Russian powder manufacturers optimising propellant for particular rifles with specific barrel lengths and it actually talked about achieving muzzle velocity increases of 30% which was quite frankly astounding to me... that is the equivalent of a 7.62x39mm round going from say 740m/s to 962m/s with a 122 grain bullet... which would exceed any Grendel or other US super new round.

As the article I linked said this new 6x41mm was tested against a few different new rounds including 6.7 x 45mm and 6.5 x 39mm.

The raw site is:  https://www.kalashnikov.ru/shestyorke-byt-novyj-rossijskij-patron-6-02-41/

Feel free to use a translator on it.

There is also an image of a 6.8 x 51mm round from 2015 in case of suggestion they are copying US rounds in this case (obviously they do copy rounds... they use a hot version of the 7.62x25mm Mauser round and of course a hot version of the 9x19mm and also various new Lapua and Cheytac rounds are being tested and used).

The images showing the 6x49mm round and compatible weapons including two sniper rifles and a machine gun all included very long barrels.

The AK-22 and the variant of the new sniper rifle also showed in images have standard barrel lengths which suggests a new powder that achieves high velocity from a normal barrel length.

Previous videos I have posted include online experts talking about how the numbers are interesting that are available... velocity and energy figures allow a bullet mass of about 103 to 104 grains to be calculated, and a muzzle velocity of about 800m/s, which is impressive, but most of its performance comes from its very low drag projectile that retains velocity and energy to extended ranges... it appears to remain supersonic out to 1km range.

The main advantage of it, however IMHO is not about the increase in characteristics but in the fact that it could be used in a simple modification of the existing assault rifles but has got the edge necessary to develop a Marksman and above all a RPK-20 derivative from it with an immediate advantage for what it came to standardization of caliber at squad/platoon level .

A couple of important points... this round is experimental... we don't know if it will ever be adopted by anyone. Its purpose was to improve the armour penetration performance and effective range of the intermediate round... ie 5.45mm with a more aerodynamic projectile.

This is not a replacement for the 7.62 x 54mm R which is in dire need of replacement.

The 6x49mm basically uses a 120 grain projectile of optimised bullet shape to be launched at very high velocity from a rather long barrel (if you look at the weapons designed to fire it they all have very long barrels) and using the low drag bullet to retain velocity out to as great a distance as possible.

Its superiority to the 7.62x54mm round mainly comes from retaining speed and energy to extended distances meaning it gets to the target faster with less bullet drop and with more energy at extended ranges.

It is smaller and lighter and does not have a rimmed case so for instance in a belt fed weapon it can be pushed forward directly into the chamber instead of needing to be pulled back out and pushed in to the chamber.

The new round also has lighter recoil and can be used in lighter cheaper weapons and carried in larger volumes for the same weight or same volumes for less weight.

The powder that makes the 6.02x41mm move at 800m/s could be used to achieve the 1.2km/s muzzle velocity the 6x49mm round needs to get its performance.

The biggest problem with the 6x49mm round was its enormous muzzle velocity wore out barrels and led to accuracy loss too quickly.

Perhaps the same solution as used in cannons could be used with plastic driving bands on the projectile to reduce wear and tear on the barrels extending their lives and increasing muzzle velocity by reducing friction.

If they could solve that they could actually introduce both calibres... 6.04x41mm to replace the 5.45mm and 6 x 49mm to replace the 7.62x54mm R.

The 6.04x41mm will have more recoil than 5.45mm but the improvement in effective range and penetration would make it worth it and a belt fed machine gun and AK-22 assault rifle would be an improvement in effective range and penetration with a slight increase in weight and recoil.

The use of the clumsy 6.04 perhaps suggests the introduction of two 6mm calibre rounds and a desire to differentiate them properly.

0.04mm is an insignificant measurement few people could tell the difference over.

It is important to point out the last part of that Kalashnikov article says this:

Speaking about the future of the "six", I consider it necessary to draw the attention of readers to two important points.

First, those who wish to study patent RU 2809501 C1 should understand that the document does not describe a specific cartridge 6.02×41 that currently exists, but sets a certain framework in which the actual characteristics may change during work.

Secondly, I recommend that the" soldiers of the sofa troops "postpone the" adoption " of the 6-mm complex — this is done by specially trained people, whose duties do not include information support for their own activities, regardless of the ardent desire of the shooting public to find out everything right here and now. There is a time for everything…

So lets not get ahead of ourselves... but Ratnik III, or Sotnik as it has been called is due in 2025...

BTW found the article...

If the burning of gunpowder to the law, allowing momentum to get the maximum burning propellant gas, the speed of bullets with the same length barrel can be increased to 1, 3-1, 4 times.

From the first post in this link: https://www.russiadefence.net/t4583-small-arms-ammunition-production-in-russia

GarryB wrote:
There was a thread on this forum about Russian powder manufacturers optimising propellant for particular rifles with specific barrel lengths and it actually talked about achieving muzzle velocity increases of 30% which was quite frankly astounding to me... that is the equivalent of a 7.62x39mm round going from say 740m/s to 962m/s with a 122 grain bullet... which would exceed any Grendel or other US super new round.

As the article I linked said this new 6x41mm was tested against a few different new rounds including 6.7 x 45mm and 6.5 x 39mm.

The raw site is:  https://www.kalashnikov.ru/shestyorke-byt-novyj-rossijskij-patron-6-02-41/

Feel free to use a translator on it.

There is also an image of a 6.8 x 51mm round from 2015 in case of suggestion they are copying US rounds in this case (obviously they do copy rounds... they use a hot version of the 7.62x25mm Mauser round and of course a hot version of the 9x19mm and also various new Lapua and Cheytac rounds are being tested and used).

The images showing the 6x49mm round and compatible weapons including two sniper rifles and a machine gun all included very long barrels.

The AK-22 and the variant of the new sniper rifle also showed in images have standard barrel lengths which suggests a new powder that achieves high velocity from a normal barrel length.

Previous videos I have posted include online experts talking about how the numbers are interesting that are available... velocity and energy figures allow a bullet mass of about 103 to 104 grains to be calculated, and a muzzle velocity of about 800m/s, which is impressive, but most of its performance comes from its very low drag projectile that retains velocity and energy to extended ranges... it appears to remain supersonic out to 1km range.

Look, we all here to fanboy over Motherland of same of us, but lets be real. And take some inside from those of us, who are actually live and active in gun community here.
Powder and ammunition production in Russia is in a very deep shit. So much so that a year after start of SMO Barnaul started to put Chinese powder in both their civilian and military product lines... Which is not surprising, given there whole total of three powder plants in whole Russia, one of which was successfully run into ground and bankrupted long time ago, and only now started to see some perspectives of rearmament and reactivation.
Add to that that precision and QQ was never a strong suit of our ammunition, moreso in last 30 years...
I have more then enough reasons to believe that magic powder you speak of above is just that - a magic powder.

Regardless. A video of Ruslan Musin on 6.02x41, with some of his musings on its actual characteristics, outside of ballistic test barrels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfzFywz4nEg
Translator advice does too apply.

Settle down, I didn't say anything controversial.

The mentioned development of new powders a few years ago... their powder producing industry being in the shit does not effect that one way or another because last time I looked developing new technology does not require being state of the art and in serial production when you develop it.

Problems with powder production would be a reason to fund improvements and upgrades to change the current situation.

They massively improved the performance of rocket propellant by adding particles to the mix, could they not do the same with gunpowder?

Sounds like it is about time to launch a new type of small arms ammo with no analogues in the whole world...

Would say a new type of powder would be a useful first step in improving firearm performance across the board, but obviously if you are introducing a radical revolutionary new type of powder it would make sense to also optimise you ammo types and perhaps introduce some new types of ammo too.

The Coalition 2S35 has new propellant that is microwaved before combustion to achieve the performance it achieves, the idea that they have given up developing new powders and will resort in the future to buying Chinese products sounds like something to be fixed rather than something to be proud of.

Sounds like an upgrade and overhaul of the powder production capacity of Russia needs attention... do you think they will ignore it forever?

GarryB wrote:with no analogues in the whole world...

That phrase became a meme long time ago. Its spelled "аналогов нет", which by way of misheard lyrics, moving spacer, and general annoyance at tryhard propaganda easily becomes what I can best translate as "anal shitter". For that reason, you see less use of it in recent years.
Just so you aware.

Sounds like an upgrade and overhaul of the powder production capacity of Russia needs attention... do you think they will ignore it forever?

Well.

My closest individual and immediate connection to our MIC is that my company builds and maintains certain tech for an another company in our city... which produces Orlan series drones.
The impression I have from personal interactions, and being in that 0.3% population number of deviants who like to own firearms in Russia, is not as an optimistic one, that you all read in papers and translate here. I would rather characterise it as "**** it, we`ll buy it 10 times the price - there more margin to be made that way". There is a certain developments in our domestic production, but the prevalent way of thought is still "we can always buy it, better quality too, so why bother", except now its technically comes from other sources (that way, currently, suddenly, China and Kazakhstan topped the list of Russia electronic components suppliers), but at steeper cost. Which is directly translated to customer so it is not a problem.

Manage your enthusiasm, all I can say. If it will happen, where are a long ways to go to that point.

That phrase became a meme long time ago. Its spelled "аналогов нет", which by way of misheard lyrics, moving spacer, and general annoyance at tryhard propaganda easily becomes what I can best translate as "anal shitter". For that reason, you see less use of it in recent years.
Just so you aware.

Yeah, I know.... it really seems to wind up PD for some reason...  

Of course sometimes it is true... like their new fast nuclear reactors that process all the material into fuel and leaves no nuclear waste to deal with or dispose of.

My closest individual and immediate connection to our MIC is that my company builds and maintains certain tech for an another company in our city... which produces Orlan series drones.
The impression I have from personal interactions, and being in that 0.3% population number of deviants who like to own firearms in Russia, is not as an optimistic one, that you all read in papers and translate here. I would rather characterise it as "**** it, we`ll buy it 10 times the price - there more margin to be made that way". There is a certain developments in our domestic production, but the prevalent way of thought is still "we can always buy it, better quality too, so why bother", except now its technically comes from other sources (that way, currently, suddenly, China and Kazakhstan topped the list of Russia electronic components suppliers), but at steeper cost. Which is directly translated to customer so it is not a problem.

So gun nuts are sick fucks and are not a huge market and they will pay what we charge them so outsourcing from China or any other country that makes it is good enough and easier that doing actual work.

OK that makes sense... it is what your airlines have done for the last 30 years. Considering the current situation, don't you think improvements in chemicals and technology and other areas that maybe getting off your arses and developing your area of industry might be good for your military and your country?

1,000% margins on selling products... is your company managed using American standards and ethics?

I am not trying to offend you... but doesn't this embarrass you that the situation appears to be the way it is?

BTW in the 1990s they had a T-95 project and all sorts of great plans on paper and a few hand made things, but the T-14 and even T-90AM were all paper projects, and equally it wasn't that long ago that the Su-30MKI was the best Flanker in service... with India... and Russian pilots were flying inferior aircraft defending Russia... Su-35 and Su-57 were projects... the aircraft industry was focused on exports... because the profit margins were bigger there too.

Well this current conflict has raised a problem... the proliferation of body armour means something better than the 5.45mm has become desirable.

Now I agree that this round we are talking about is experimental, but that is not to say the bullet design (aerodynamic refinement) and improved powder could not be applied to the 5.45mm round to get better performance on the cheap, and once the powder was in mass production that a new cartridge might become something they could consider, but it would be very expensive and would have to be carefully managed.

I have said on other threads that I think the 7.62x54mm should probably be replaced first... but do you replace it with a further improved 6x49mm or do you go up in calibre and use one of the 9x70mm modifications of the 338 Lapua and use that as your new sniper rifle and machine gun cartridge... obviously with a high accuracy sniper version of the round, a cheaper DMR version of the round, and a mass serial production machine gun round version.

With all their nano technology projects and supercomputers, I would think that new propellants would be something they would look in to... I mean if their claims of 1.3-1.4 times energy improvement (and it can't make the bullets heavier) and that article is from 2009 so we are talking a decade to formulate new powders, or even to look into new ideas in terms of propellant like gels or liquids.

Even if it is just 1.3 times higher velocity then that would enormously effect the performance of even existing rounds, they are leading the field in a range of different technologies... why not in propellant powders?

Military use alone would provide a large market, and if you had a powder that was this potent I would suggest export sales would be significant too... maybe even export to China.

Change is not a bad thing, and it sounds like Russia could do with a change in terms of propellant development and production... with all their experimenting with new long range rounds I would think getting optimised powders would be part of that process to arrive at a potent weapon as a product.

Of course I am very optimistic, but if you don't try you will never know.... Russia didn't need Su-57s... Su-35s would do just fine... especially now with Europe talking about making a new 5th gen fighter (which will collapse and they wont make anything) and the US putting F-15s and F-16s back into production... it seems Russia is the only country with a combat proven modern 5th gen fighter in serial production.

Based on the released information and the fact that they have revealed the AK-22 in the 6x41mm calibre and the fact that the chart shows two other calibres... 5.45 x 39mm and 7.62 x 39mm which would be the AK-12 and AK-15 respectively, is it that impossible to believe that the chart might show the performance of the AK-12, AK-15, and AK-22.

After all what value would there be in using a test barrel of extra length when trying to work out a cartridge to improve on the performance of the other two cartridges if you have a special super long barrel for the new round?

That would be rather stupid.

Are they going to test 115mm smoothbore tank rounds from T-62s and 125mm smoothbore tank rounds from T-90s with a 152mm smoothbore barrel that is a special 20m long testing barrel to decide whether to introduce 152mm tank rounds into service?

That chart would only make any sense if it reflected the rifles and the calibres that would be used.

Perhaps instead of being down on me you should be pushing your friends and colleagues to at least work with Chinese companies rather than just be their customer.

I would consider ammunition propellant to be a critical area of technology that would be well within Russias capacity to make important progress after a period of stagnation.

Remember it is the US that wants countries with resources they buy to not make anything and just sell to the US what you have and use that money to buy what you need from the US. Such dependencies suit the West in general, but never benefit the colony country.

It is very interesting because Vlad would probably agree with me... mostly because he wouldn't trust the Chinese.

I am not saying don't trust the Chinese...  I am saying don't put yourself into a position where you need to trust anyone else.

My enthusiasm is just fine... I am not a doomer who goes to pieces if I don't get what I hoped for.