Russian PESA and AESA Radars

GarryB wrote:Seems to be the trend today.... the Eurofighter entered service well before all its capabilities and systems were ready.

I think people are not appreciating the problems with AESA production... the MiG-35 has an array of over 1,000 by 1,000 transmit/receive modules... that is 1 million modules per aircraft... which is a lot to produce.

the first ones can be hundreds or even thousands of dollars each to make but over time and improvements in production the quality and production capacity goes up and the dud rate goes down... remember a dud module costs the same amount to make as a good module... you just can't use it on a radar antenna.

At the end of the day if the first 30 aircraft don't have an AESA that is not the end of the world... as later planes get the AESA radars the production numbers will increase as will production capacity and new designs and new technology to make them better and cheaper... once that happens those first production aircraft can get replacement radar antenna fitted for rather less money than it would cost if they sold them with under tested and under developed experimental models.

sepheronx wrote:And? 160Km range is within similar ranges for western radars (aesa as well).

http://www.arabic-military.com/t18249-topic

Aesa on F-35 and F-22 are better due to more T/R modules of course.

mack8 wrote:160 km range must be surely for FIGHTER size target (3 or 5 sqm can't recall now). The Zhuk-ME can already  do 120 or 130 km for same.

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:And? 160Km range is within similar ranges for western radars (aesa as well).

http://www.arabic-military.com/t18249-topic

Aesa on F-35 and F-22 are better due to more T/R modules of course.

Could u refer to a single AESA radar with about 1000 modules with range less than or equal to 160 Km ?

Operational Rafale AESA radar which have less modules have a range more than 200 km

Captor-E radar intended for Typhoon have 1200-1500 modules with a range up to 360 Km

FGA-35 and Captor-E radars both have nearly the same diameter of about 600 mm . But as u can see much more modules at Captor-E

By the way the standard Russian target is 5m2 . So when they say the range is up to 160 Km this means against 5m2 target .

mack8 wrote:Yes just did a quick research and Zhuk-ME does 120km for a 5 sqm target, presumably Zhuk-M2E does a bit more. To compare of course one needs rough similar data from competitor's radars, but of course they hardly ever are open as russian companies are on these things (ironically). They only say they are "unmatched" and hide behind the "classified" mantra and other blah blah. Doubtful similar radars to Zhuk-ME and Zhuk-AE are that much better, physics work the same everywhere.

And Russian N036 AESA has around 400km range (its AESA based off of Irbis-e at around 1500t/r modules.

Rafale isnt even equipped with AESA yet and we dont really know. APG-80 is roughly less than 160km with similar diamaters to MiG-29 radar.

The AESA FGA radar with over 1000 t/r modules is still undergoing tests, so lets see what they come up with. Test of MiG-35 in India had roughly a little over 600 t/r modules with similar performances listed as the one with 900 so it could be some other issue.

house200888 wrote:

And Russian N036 AESA has around 400km range (its AESA based off of Irbis-e at around 1500t/r modules.

Absolutely it is a great radar benefiting from big Sukhoi noses and power
But I am talking about FGA-35

Rafale isnt even equipped with AESA yet and we dont really know. APG-80 is roughly less than 160km with similar diamaters to MiG-29 radar.

No Rafale is using its AESA radar for 2-3 years now . The current standard of the Rafale is called F3.4 (to be F3R in 2018)

APG-80 has a range of up to 120 Km for 1m2 target . Which means it is much more than 160 Km for 5m2 target
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/aesa-radars-for-fighters-brief-review.html

The AESA FGA radar with over 1000 t/r modules is still undergoing tests, so lets see what they come up with. Test of MiG-35 in India had roughly a little over 600 t/r modules with similar performances listed as the one with 900 so it could be some other issue.

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

house200888 wrote:"AN/APG-80 is Northrop-Grumman's AESA radar which developed for export with F-16E/F block 60 and intended for 4th gen. fighters modernization programs too. In comparison with older slotted array F-16C/D radar AN/AGP-68(V)7 the range of fly target detection is as twice as longer while synthetic aperture mode is added for ground strike capability."

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:"AN/APG-80 is Northrop-Grumman's AESA radar which developed for export with F-16E/F block 60 and intended for 4th gen. fighters modernization programs too. In comparison with older slotted array F-16C/D radar AN/AGP-68(V)7 the range of fly target detection is as twice as longer while synthetic aperture mode is added for ground strike capability."

Yet your link states something else. So what is it? A lot of conflict in information.

Your igor blog post states 110-140 or whatever km in 1m^2 yet now you are saying 300? If you are gonna use a link to try to prove your point, dont try to change the articles claims then with your own. It would be considered disinformation.

sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:"AN/APG-80 is Northrop-Grumman's AESA radar which developed for export with F-16E/F block 60 and intended for 4th gen. fighters modernization programs too. In comparison with older slotted array F-16C/D radar AN/AGP-68(V)7 the range of fly target detection is as twice as longer while synthetic aperture mode is added for ground strike capability."

Yet your link states something else. So what is it? A lot of conflict in information.

Your igor blog post states 110-140 or whatever km in 1m^2 yet now you are saying 300? If you are gonna use a link to try to prove your point, dont try to change the articles claims then with your own. It would be considered disinformation.

There is No conflict my friend
This quote is from the same blog and the same page  

The detection range against 1m2 target is different than that of 10m2 target or maximum range

My speculation that the max range is around 300 Km (actually that what a friend from UAE told me . As they own the radar)

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

Yes I read that before
That was the goal back in 2009 as I mentioned before
But what we have seen as a fact in 2015 is totally different
I think their was difficulties in practical side

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

He explain me, that initially figured 120 km detection range – is highly downplayed, and reflect the real capability of the radar in very initial stage of work, already overcome. According to him, the planned capability of standard flying target detection for Zhuk-AE (with 680 emitting units) is 250 km, and he is in no doubt to achieve it.

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

Yes I read that before
That was the goal back in 2009 as I mentioned before
But what we have seen as a fact in 2015 is totally different
I think their was difficulties in practical side

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

You disnt read it then. The phazotron chief stated it is due to powersupply and that they undervalue their stats.

He explain me, that initially figured 120 km detection range – is highly downplayed, and reflect the real capability of the radar in very initial stage of work, already overcome. According to him, the planned capability of standard flying target detection for Zhuk-AE (with 680 emitting units) is 250 km, and he is in no doubt to achieve it.

Edit: you say indians confirmed, but that was rumor mill that phazotron denied. Shouldnt read too much into that indian forum...

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:

And Russian N036 AESA has around 400km range (its AESA based off of Irbis-e at around 1500t/r modules.

Absolutely it is a great radar benefiting from big Sukhoi noses and power
But I am talking about FGA-35

Rafale isnt even equipped with AESA yet and we dont really know. APG-80 is roughly less than 160km with similar diamaters to MiG-29 radar.

No Rafale is using its AESA radar for 2-3 years now . The current standard of the Rafale is called F3.4 (to be F3R in 2018)

APG-80 has a range of up to 120 Km for 1m2 target . Which means it is much more than 160 Km for 5m2 target
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/aesa-radars-for-fighters-brief-review.html

The AESA FGA radar with over 1000 t/r modules is still undergoing tests, so lets see what they come up with. Test of MiG-35 in India had roughly a little over 600 t/r modules with similar performances listed as the one with 900 so it could be some other issue.

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

N036 has nothing to do with size when it carries the same amount of T/R modules as what you are saying as Captor-E, yet has greater range.

I dont know where they get that 1M^2 figures from because other sites list 3 - 5 m^2. Also, look at the amount of T/R modules mentioned too.

Not saying it is wrong, it could be right, but I checked out the companies websites and couldnt find official data.

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

house200888 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

Yes I read that before
That was the goal back in 2009 as I mentioned before
But what we have seen as a fact in 2015 is totally different
I think their was difficulties in practical side

The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

You disnt read it then. The phazotron chief stated it is due to powersupply and that they undervalue their stats.

He explain me, that initially figured 120 km detection range – is highly downplayed, and reflect the real capability of the radar in very initial stage of work, already overcome. According to him, the planned capability of standard flying target detection for Zhuk-AE (with 680 emitting units) is 250 km, and he is in no doubt to achieve it.

Edit: you say indians confirmed, but that was rumor mill that phazotron denied. Shouldnt read too much into that indian forum...

No I really read it before
Actually until I saw that pic from AERO INDIA I  always was convinced that the range of FGA-35 is more than 200 km relying on this interview and another link that said back then nearly the same
even WIKI say nearly the same

But that PIC is official and up to date