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Isoshttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/16/uk-tempest-fighter-jet-typhoon-farnborough-airshow
UK and Italy to co-produce new 5th generation fighter named Tempest.
UK and Italy to co-produce new 5th generation fighter named Tempest.
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JohninMK
Godric
Backman
mnztr
GarryB
PapaDragon
Admin
George1
Isos
13 posters
New UK-Italian fighter Tempest
Isos- Posts : 11309
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George1- Posts : 18328
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by the time it will appear we talk about 6th gen
Isos- Posts : 11309
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George1 wrote:by the time it will appear we talk about 6th gen
5th generation fighters were already made when Typhoon went into service.
The most weired is that they will buy f-35 in big numbers before making their own fighter.
Stpuidity...
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The Italian government has not pledged anything to the project. Leonardo is a partner because the UK can't make the avionics.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13289
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Does anyone know what 6-gen fighter is even supposed to be?
Not even Lockheed Martin came up with usable definition for promo pamphlets yet...
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PapaDragon wrote:
Does anyone know what 6-gen fighter is even supposed to be?
Not even Lockheed Martin came up with usable definition for promo pamphlets yet...
One of the key features will be high supercruise speeds in order to launch hypersonic missiles without boosters and extend range without the need for aerial refueling. The ability to control drones and a power supply capable of powering lasers. Stealth in both RCS and IR reduced to new levels. The use of GaN AESA and all of the abilities the increased power output will be able to gain.
Isos- Posts : 11309
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PapaDragon wrote:
Does anyone know what 6-gen fighter is even supposed to be?
Not even Lockheed Martin came up with usable definition for promo pamphlets yet...
Cruise missiles are replacing fighters. Faster, longer range, stealthier, more easy to deploy and use.
Airports and everything inside will be easy targets for them. While they will be out of range of fighters like f-35.
Fighters won't be needed for conventional wars. Satelittes and drones will monitor the enemy. The first hour, the first to shoot the more hypersonic missiles will win. 6 days wars type wars with missiles instead of fighters.
7th, 8th and 9th generations will probably focus on the ability to fly in the space but 6th generation isn't needed in my opinion.
George1- Posts : 18328
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Tempest will be built by a consortium led by the British defence firm BAE Systems, with the engine-maker Rolls-Royce, the Italian aerospace company Leonardo and the pan-European missile manufacturer MBDA.
From pictures i see that it will be also delta wing
Isos- Posts : 11309
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George1 wrote:Tempest will be built by a consortium led by the British defence firm BAE Systems, with the engine-maker Rolls-Royce, the Italian aerospace company Leonardo and the pan-European missile manufacturer MBDA.
From pictures i see that it will be also delta wing
Many articles on the net say the maket seems to be a BAE Replica jet. It was a unfinished 5th gen fighter developed in the 90s but stoped in favor of f-35.
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British 6th generation flat-nozzle fighter concept confirmed
https://en.topwar.ru/178143-podtverdilas-koncepcija-britanskogo-istrebitelja-6-go-pokolenija-s-ploskim-soplom.html
https://en.topwar.ru/178143-podtverdilas-koncepcija-britanskogo-istrebitelja-6-go-pokolenija-s-ploskim-soplom.html
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No canards and twin engines.... LMFS will burst in to flames... 
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Agreement between Great Britain, Italy and Sweden on the joint creation of a promising Tempest fighter
On January 3, 2021, the Italian news agency ANSA circulated a message from the Italian Ministry of Defense that the Ministers of Defense of Italy Lorenzo Guerini, Great Britain Ben Wallace and Sweden Peter Hultqvist signed a trilateral agreement on December 21, 2020 on the joint development of a promising new generation fighter based on the British Tempest fighter project ... The alleged appearance of a promising new generation fighter Tempest, which will be created under the joint program of Great Britain, Italy and Sweden (c) BAE Systems
The agreement, called the Memorandum of Understanding for the Future Combat Air System Cooperation (FCASC) program, regulates the general principles of equal cooperation between the three countries (Great Britain, Sweden and Italy) and covers all activities, including R&D, necessary for the governments of the three countries to decide on the acquisition of a promising aviation system to replace the Eurofighter and Saab Gripen fighters. It should be noted that the Defense Ministries of the three countries did not officially announce the signing of this agreement. This agreement should be followed by further project agreements and a full-scale development (R&D) phase, which is currently scheduled to begin in 2025.
In a document recently submitted by the Italian Ministry of Defense to the Italian Parliament on a three-year (2020-2022) defense planning (DPP) program, Tempest is identified as one of the priorities for Italy, with the aim of creating a replacement for the Eurofighter, and in these three years on it is planned to allocate 760 million euros from the Italian side.
At the same time, the Italian Ministry of Defense, despite joining the Tempest program, said that “nevertheless, in the context of the construction of sixth generation aircraft, Italy considers it desirable, as well as other countries participating in both Tempest and the trilateral FCAS project (France, Germany and Spain), the possibility of evaluating over time the possible convergence of the two programs in order to make the European product even more competitive on a global scale, and in order not to risk the beginning of competition between European groups, which is not sustainable and which is likely to go to the benefit of other regional players with global capabilities that are developing similar technologies. "
In September 2020, at the DSEI exhibition in London, the leading companies of the defense sector of the UK (BAE Systems, Leonardo UK, Rolls Royce and MBDA UK) and Italy (Leonardo, Elettronica, Avio Aero and MBDA Italy) signed a Declaration of Intent on cooperation in the development of a military aviation Tempest systems.
On the part of bmpd, we recall that in July 2018, the UK Department of Defense publicly presentedthe concept of a long-term Combat Air Strategy (CAS), which was based on the creation by 2035 of a promising British fighter called Tempest and a full-size "conceptual" layout of which was demonstrated at the presentation of the Strategy. Preliminary studies on the creation of a new fighter were carried out within the framework of the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative, proclaimed by the 2015 British Strategic Defense and Security Review, specially created by the Team Tempest group, which, in addition to playing the leading role of the corporation BAE Systems, also Leonardo, MBDA, Rolls-Royce and RAF Rapid Capabilities Office.
The British CAS strategy stated that full-scale R&D funding for the promising fighter program should begin in 2025 and that the promising fighter should reach the initial operational readiness (IOC) stage in 2035. The promising Tempest fighter is to replace the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in the British Air Force, the final withdrawal of which is scheduled for 2040.
In July 2019, a Memorandum of Understanding to join the Tempest program was signed by the Swedish Ministry of Defense, and in September 2019 by the Italian Ministry of Defense. Now the parties have signed an agreement that finally gives the program a trilateral character.
The Tempest program is currently competing with another European promising fighter program - the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program implemented by France, Germany and Spain to develop the Next Generation Fighter (NGF) fighter. The alleged appearance of a promising new generation fighter Tempest, which will be created under the joint program of Great Britain, Italy and Sweden (c) BAE Systems
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4230753.html
On January 3, 2021, the Italian news agency ANSA circulated a message from the Italian Ministry of Defense that the Ministers of Defense of Italy Lorenzo Guerini, Great Britain Ben Wallace and Sweden Peter Hultqvist signed a trilateral agreement on December 21, 2020 on the joint development of a promising new generation fighter based on the British Tempest fighter project ... The alleged appearance of a promising new generation fighter Tempest, which will be created under the joint program of Great Britain, Italy and Sweden (c) BAE Systems
The agreement, called the Memorandum of Understanding for the Future Combat Air System Cooperation (FCASC) program, regulates the general principles of equal cooperation between the three countries (Great Britain, Sweden and Italy) and covers all activities, including R&D, necessary for the governments of the three countries to decide on the acquisition of a promising aviation system to replace the Eurofighter and Saab Gripen fighters. It should be noted that the Defense Ministries of the three countries did not officially announce the signing of this agreement. This agreement should be followed by further project agreements and a full-scale development (R&D) phase, which is currently scheduled to begin in 2025.
In a document recently submitted by the Italian Ministry of Defense to the Italian Parliament on a three-year (2020-2022) defense planning (DPP) program, Tempest is identified as one of the priorities for Italy, with the aim of creating a replacement for the Eurofighter, and in these three years on it is planned to allocate 760 million euros from the Italian side.
At the same time, the Italian Ministry of Defense, despite joining the Tempest program, said that “nevertheless, in the context of the construction of sixth generation aircraft, Italy considers it desirable, as well as other countries participating in both Tempest and the trilateral FCAS project (France, Germany and Spain), the possibility of evaluating over time the possible convergence of the two programs in order to make the European product even more competitive on a global scale, and in order not to risk the beginning of competition between European groups, which is not sustainable and which is likely to go to the benefit of other regional players with global capabilities that are developing similar technologies. "
In September 2020, at the DSEI exhibition in London, the leading companies of the defense sector of the UK (BAE Systems, Leonardo UK, Rolls Royce and MBDA UK) and Italy (Leonardo, Elettronica, Avio Aero and MBDA Italy) signed a Declaration of Intent on cooperation in the development of a military aviation Tempest systems.
On the part of bmpd, we recall that in July 2018, the UK Department of Defense publicly presentedthe concept of a long-term Combat Air Strategy (CAS), which was based on the creation by 2035 of a promising British fighter called Tempest and a full-size "conceptual" layout of which was demonstrated at the presentation of the Strategy. Preliminary studies on the creation of a new fighter were carried out within the framework of the Future Combat Air System Technology Initiative, proclaimed by the 2015 British Strategic Defense and Security Review, specially created by the Team Tempest group, which, in addition to playing the leading role of the corporation BAE Systems, also Leonardo, MBDA, Rolls-Royce and RAF Rapid Capabilities Office.
The British CAS strategy stated that full-scale R&D funding for the promising fighter program should begin in 2025 and that the promising fighter should reach the initial operational readiness (IOC) stage in 2035. The promising Tempest fighter is to replace the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in the British Air Force, the final withdrawal of which is scheduled for 2040.
In July 2019, a Memorandum of Understanding to join the Tempest program was signed by the Swedish Ministry of Defense, and in September 2019 by the Italian Ministry of Defense. Now the parties have signed an agreement that finally gives the program a trilateral character.
The Tempest program is currently competing with another European promising fighter program - the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program implemented by France, Germany and Spain to develop the Next Generation Fighter (NGF) fighter. The alleged appearance of a promising new generation fighter Tempest, which will be created under the joint program of Great Britain, Italy and Sweden (c) BAE Systems
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4230753.html
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mnztr- Posts : 2782
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Until SAAB joined the consortium I didn't think this would be built. My prediction is the consortium will implode at some point and SAAB will deliver the only version of this plane.
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GarryB- Posts : 39078
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When the UK leaves the programme they will decide again that the day of the fighter aircraft is over and ground based missiles can do everything anyway like they did 60 odd years ago...
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Tempest vs FCAS. Germany and France have the money to do FCAS. But they will lack motivation.
Post Brexit UK will have the motivation. But will lack money.
It would be really cool to see 2 new fighters coming up. But it's going to be a long slog for both. It already is.
Post Brexit UK will have the motivation. But will lack money.
It would be really cool to see 2 new fighters coming up. But it's going to be a long slog for both. It already is.
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mnztr- Posts : 2782
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Backman wrote:Tempest vs FCAS. Germany and France have the money to do FCAS. But they will lack motivation.
Post Brexit UK will have the motivation. But will lack money.
It would be really cool to see 2 new fighters coming up. But it's going to be a long slog for both. It already is.
Why do you think the French lack the motivation? Their national jewel Dassault needs to be fed.
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i very much doubt the Tempest will come to fruition .... British defence industry is going to take a hit of £3.5 billion per year as the likely hood of Scotland leaving the UK this year is about 95% with 20 polls on a trot showing the majority of Scots support Scottish Independence
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Godric wrote:i very much doubt the Tempest will come to fruition .... British defence industry is going to take a hit of £3.5 billion per year as the likely hood of Scotland leaving the UK this year is about 95% with 20 polls on a trot showing the majority of Scots support Scottish Independence
I agree that the UK defence is going to have constricted budgets ahead, but I'm not sure about the figure you quote of the likelihood of the reason, but that is not for this thread.
The aircraft industry in the British Isles has been concentrated in England with subcontractors in the other countries. That is likely to continue with our involvement of airframes in BAE and engines at RR with little significant Scottish involvement. However if Scotland were to spin off it might become a four country project were the Scottish Government to see that their involvement was in their interest.
This is a significant R&D opportunity and, following the F-35 experience, the Westminster Government may regard it as strategic and back it hard.
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I think Scotlands status within the UK is a critical part of whether this new aircraft ever actually flys or not, but the talk of the EU etc is going to move.
Funding and resourcing a project in a group of countries whose status is about to change is complex and enormously problematic... a breakaway of Scotland... which is not becoming a new country, it is just separating from the UK and if it can joining with the EU.
This new fighter is a UK part project and Scotland is part of the UK so some talk of independence is relevant.
Discussions about Scottish independence is for the other thread but you can't ignore the economic and political considerations an independent Scotland would have on this sort of project which also makes it relevant to this thread too.
The idea of needing a new 5th gen fighter in England when the Scottish announce they have bought S-400s and Su-35s with S-70s and are in discussions over Su-57s and Pantsirs is going to drive England to take its defence perhaps a bit more seriously.
Such a result, which I think unlikely in the short term, could guarantee funding for a new fighter programme... whether that change is to spend lots more money on this new fighter design, or perhaps even a change of heart to consider now they are separated that maybe both sides of the border are going to have to radically change its views on what a real enemy is and why they think the way they do and that perhaps a re evaluation of where their future should be.
But if they separate and join the EU then purchases of Russian gear will become problematic... it will likely be potential HATO membership that hamstrings future defence decisions and priorities.
In fact purchases for both state components might be delayed or cancelled while other more pressing problems get addressed... which will also impact this fighter programme.
Funding and resourcing a project in a group of countries whose status is about to change is complex and enormously problematic... a breakaway of Scotland... which is not becoming a new country, it is just separating from the UK and if it can joining with the EU.
This new fighter is a UK part project and Scotland is part of the UK so some talk of independence is relevant.
Discussions about Scottish independence is for the other thread but you can't ignore the economic and political considerations an independent Scotland would have on this sort of project which also makes it relevant to this thread too.
The idea of needing a new 5th gen fighter in England when the Scottish announce they have bought S-400s and Su-35s with S-70s and are in discussions over Su-57s and Pantsirs is going to drive England to take its defence perhaps a bit more seriously.
Such a result, which I think unlikely in the short term, could guarantee funding for a new fighter programme... whether that change is to spend lots more money on this new fighter design, or perhaps even a change of heart to consider now they are separated that maybe both sides of the border are going to have to radically change its views on what a real enemy is and why they think the way they do and that perhaps a re evaluation of where their future should be.
But if they separate and join the EU then purchases of Russian gear will become problematic... it will likely be potential HATO membership that hamstrings future defence decisions and priorities.
In fact purchases for both state components might be delayed or cancelled while other more pressing problems get addressed... which will also impact this fighter programme.
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JohninMK wrote:Godric wrote:i very much doubt the Tempest will come to fruition .... British defence industry is going to take a hit of £3.5 billion per year as the likely hood of Scotland leaving the UK this year is about 95% with 20 polls on a trot showing the majority of Scots support Scottish Independence
I agree that the UK defence is going to have constricted budgets ahead, but I'm not sure about the figure you quote of the likelihood of the reason, but that is not for this thread.
The aircraft industry in the British Isles has been concentrated in England with subcontractors in the other countries. That is likely to continue with our involvement of airframes in BAE and engines at RR with little significant Scottish involvement. However if Scotland were to spin off it might become a four country project were the Scottish Government to see that their involvement was in their interest.
This is a significant R&D opportunity and, following the F-35 experience, the Westminster Government may regard it as strategic and back it hard.
we won't be included in any rUK defence projects Tory MPs have made it clear they are going to try and make it hard for us, we won't be part of NATO, Faslane will be key to that Scottish membership of NATO which would not only be blocked by the rUK but also America who will be enraged and we will be blocked from rUK/US military tech .... that would mean no sales of Eurofighters/Grippens/US made Aircraft and Rafale whose weapon systems contain US hardware (US blocked the sale of Rafale to Egypt by refusing US components for the weapons systems)
Scottish Taxpayer contribute £65 billion + in taxes to the UK and receive £32 billion back including Barnett consequentials and the so called £15 billion deficit is based on what UK Gov spends on behalf of Scotland and refuses to give a breakdown of there spending .... Scottish Tax payers contribute £3.5 to £3.6 billion annually to UK defence expenditure ... that's roughly £105 - £110 Billion over a 30 year procurement period
and their is another thing rUK needs Scotland to support it's claim to be the successor state of the UK to remain in the UN permanent Security council .... if the Tories do go down the nasty route don't bet on our support .... remember no assets = no liabilities
it does not have to be that way we would rather have a normal relationship with all our neighbours it would be beneficial for all we supply 75% of England's gas needs, supply 10% and rising of England's electricity needs especially after the 2 new proposed nuclear power plants are not going ahead in Wales and the massive Hinkley B
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[quote="Godric"][quote="JohninMK"]
What was the strategy behind that ? Trying to get Russia some arms sales ? Seriously I guess they thought Egypt would buy F-18's ?
Godric wrote:i Rafale whose weapon systems contain US hardware (US blocked the sale of Rafale to Egypt by refusing US components for the weapons systems)
What was the strategy behind that ? Trying to get Russia some arms sales ? Seriously I guess they thought Egypt would buy F-18's ?
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Backman wrote:Godric wrote:JohninMK wrote:Godric wrote:i Rafale whose weapon systems contain US hardware (US blocked the sale of Rafale to Egypt by refusing US components for the weapons systems)
What was the strategy behind that ? Trying to get Russia some arms sales ? Seriously I guess they thought Egypt would buy F-18's ?
OBama was not happy with the overthrow of the Muslim Brotherhood by the Egyptian military .... ever since Egypt has been buying Russian tech
also could have been as you said America unhappy Egypt never went for US aircraft ... as they have stood in the way of a few Rafale deals .... America does not like competition
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Scottish Taxpayer contribute £65 billion + in taxes to the UK and receive £32 billion back including Barnett consequentials and the so called £15 billion deficit is based on what UK Gov spends on behalf of Scotland and refuses to give a breakdown of there spending .... Scottish Tax payers contribute £3.5 to £3.6 billion annually to UK defence expenditure ... that's roughly £105 - £110 Billion over a 30 year procurement period
The problem is that if you break off a region in any system there is going to be some damage and the closer the parts are together the more damage you will do... I rather suspect if Scotland does separate from the UK that things are going to be in turmoil, though talk of making things tough for Scotland is amusing because things are going to become tough for both sides and I rather suspect the blaming each other thing is going to get tired really quickly and that working together in some areas actually makes sense.
Even during the height of the cold war the Soviets still sent gas supplies to Europe... agreements were made on both sides where they realised there was a need...
Bedsides, no insensitive bully likes to be told what they are and they will remember the relationship quite differently I am sure.
What was the strategy behind that ? Trying to get Russia some arms sales ? Seriously I guess they thought Egypt would buy F-18's ?
We don't have allies or friends... we have interests... buy our stuff... if you try and buy stuff from anyone else and we will stop you if we can. Rafale and Gripen use American parts and weapons. They also threatened CAASTA regarding the purchase of Su-35s. Their products are overpriced shit and they know it. Rafale is expensive but it has some tricks...
America does not like competition
The defender of democracy and the free market... how can you say such things....
Godric- Posts : 800
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GarryB wrote:Scottish Taxpayer contribute £65 billion + in taxes to the UK and receive £32 billion back including Barnett consequentials and the so called £15 billion deficit is based on what UK Gov spends on behalf of Scotland and refuses to give a breakdown of there spending .... Scottish Tax payers contribute £3.5 to £3.6 billion annually to UK defence expenditure ... that's roughly £105 - £110 Billion over a 30 year procurement period
The problem is that if you break off a region in any system there is going to be some damage and the closer the parts are together the more damage you will do... I rather suspect if Scotland does separate from the UK that things are going to be in turmoil, though talk of making things tough for Scotland is amusing because things are going to become tough for both sides and I rather suspect the blaming each other thing is going to get tired really quickly and that working together in some areas actually makes sense.
Even during the height of the cold war the Soviets still sent gas supplies to Europe... agreements were made on both sides where they realised there was a need...
Bedsides, no insensitive bully likes to be told what they are and they will remember the relationship quite differently I am sure.
What was the strategy behind that ? Trying to get Russia some arms sales ? Seriously I guess they thought Egypt would buy F-18's ?
We don't have allies or friends... we have interests... buy our stuff... if you try and buy stuff from anyone else and we will stop you if we can. Rafale and Gripen use American parts and weapons. They also threatened CAASTA regarding the purchase of Su-35s. Their products are overpriced shit and they know it. Rafale is expensive but it has some tricks...
America does not like competition
The defender of democracy and the free market... how can you say such things....
you are right it is not going to be a picnic for either Scotland or England as i reckon Wales will be offski as well, i think it would be better for all 4 nations to go their own way and find their own economic solutions and policies .
as for the Tories they would cut their own heads just for spite if you see what is going on with Brexit Brexit negotiations are simple ... you go half way meet in the middle and strike a deal Tories from day one wanted their cake and eat it their leak document proved it ... they were not prepared to negotiate but they wanted all the benefits of the EU and give the EU nothing in return
for England to go ahead with the Tempest with Italy and possibly Sweden they would have to ditch the F-35 as it's a bit of a disaster and save it's money for developing the Tempest instead .... but it will leave the 2 QE Class carriers white elephants for a decade longer or more .... i said at the time London should have went for the Rafale M .... but nooooo Britain had to have the latest and best thing and that attitude is the reason why the Type 45 destroyers spend so much time in dock than out at sea
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Actually going in to negotiations with the best deal... ie giving up everything your are prepared to give up and demanding things you are not prepared to give up is rather stupid.
Essentially what it means is that you are going in there with an offer that has no flexibility... it becomes an ultimatum... no room for manouver.
It makes sense to work out this sort of position but you can't start negotiations with that sort of offer it does not make sense...
The strange thing is that Wales and Scotland are not really independent countries, they are like regions of England that want to become independent... well Scotland seems to anyway.
Hopefully it can all be done peacefully and with a bit of common sense and not spite, but the west these days does not seem to tolerate views that are non PC... the irony is enormous... to protect the feelings of the minority, then abject ideas like sexuality comes in to question and becomes fluid but cannot be questioned because the tiny minority for which this is actually an issue could be offended.... never mind the number of average people offended at not being able to use gender specific words any more because some weirdo might get the huff.... the irony is that it is more often than not powerful white people who are offended for them that are the problem.
Essentially what it means is that you are going in there with an offer that has no flexibility... it becomes an ultimatum... no room for manouver.
It makes sense to work out this sort of position but you can't start negotiations with that sort of offer it does not make sense...
The strange thing is that Wales and Scotland are not really independent countries, they are like regions of England that want to become independent... well Scotland seems to anyway.
Hopefully it can all be done peacefully and with a bit of common sense and not spite, but the west these days does not seem to tolerate views that are non PC... the irony is enormous... to protect the feelings of the minority, then abject ideas like sexuality comes in to question and becomes fluid but cannot be questioned because the tiny minority for which this is actually an issue could be offended.... never mind the number of average people offended at not being able to use gender specific words any more because some weirdo might get the huff.... the irony is that it is more often than not powerful white people who are offended for them that are the problem.
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