MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

Mig-21 Bison



https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/status/1101850703159533568

No, the objects are intact. You only cut some trees in the forest.

Austin wrote:Intelligence agencies have evidence, in the form of imagery from Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR), showing that the four buildings, identified as targets, were hit by five S-2000 precision-guided munition (PGM) fired from IAF’s Mirage-2000 fighter jets.

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1101670035485913088

Check the whole thread

Austin, as you would imagine being a Belarusian/Russian I've no stake in this conflict. So I'm not taking sides. That being said, several things don't add up.

You guys had AWACS in that area. Why didn't the AWACS use its main radar to fry the sensors of the incoming AMRAAM?

The death toll of jihadis seems to be a lot less than the 300-350 claimed by Indian Government. Maybe the ring leader of the jihadis was hit but it's impossible not to get images of 300-350 dead jihadis.

Is it possible that this is a stunt that Modi has pulled to win the forthcoming election? I understand he has failed to fulfill most of his election promises so he is desperate to win.

Lastly, that guy Yusuf whose Twitter feed you have posted is a arms broker who operates with several other Delhi based arms brokers on behalf of Western & Israeli government. So trust him only as far as you can throw him.

RuAF is able to hit even moving targets with unguided bombs. It's time for India to buy SVP-24.

https://twitter.com/MdShafiKhatana/status/1101001860864004096

This become even more interesting. Here is a video, with which Indian side want to prove, that PAF F-16 was shot down. Interesting is a drop tank, which they are loading on the truck. It daesn't have any fins, it is streight and not curved at the end as F-16 central drop tank. Nose cone is more oval and not sharp as with drop tanks on MiG figters. The only proper candidate is central drop tank from Mirage-2000.

You guys had AWACS in that area. Why didn't the AWACS use its main radar to fry the sensors of the incoming AMRAAM?

Don't know of any AWACS anywhere that could do that...

jhelb wrote:

Austin wrote:Intelligence agencies have evidence, in the form of imagery from Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR), showing that the four buildings, identified as targets, were hit by five S-2000 precision-guided munition (PGM) fired from IAF’s Mirage-2000 fighter jets.

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1101670035485913088

Check the whole thread

Austin, as you would imagine being a Belarusian/Russian I've no stake in this conflict. So I'm not taking sides. That being said, several things don't add up.

You guys had AWACS in that area. Why didn't the AWACS use its main radar to fry the sensors of the incoming AMRAAM?

The death toll of jihadis seems to be a lot less than the 300-350 claimed by Indian Government. Maybe the ring leader of the jihadis was hit but it's impossible not to get images of 300-350 dead jihadis.

Is it possible that this is a stunt that Modi has pulled to win the forthcoming election? I understand he has failed to fulfill most of his election promises so he is desperate to win.

Lastly, that guy Yusuf whose Twitter feed you have posted is a arms broker who operates with several other Delhi based arms brokers on behalf of Western & Israeli government. So trust him only as far as you can throw him.

We did use AWACS but the smaller Netra not the A-50. Like Garry said not sure any awacs can fry the AMRAAM or even detect it at long ranges.

Not really sure about how successful the strike is , Waiting for the Government to release the information.

I dont think modi used this as stunt to win election but it might certainly help his cause the previous congress government practically did nothing and let the people and armed forces die from terror strike.

I dont think modi did any thing great I expected more but atleast he did something rather let the armed forces die from terror strikes.

GarryB wrote:Don't know of any AWACS anywhere that could do that...

Meant the AWACS could have used their main radar to jam the incoming AMRAAM that was fired at the Mi 21 Bis.

Austin wrote:We did use AWACS but the smaller Netra not the A-50.  Like Garry said not sure any awacs can fry the AMRAAM or even detect it at long ranges.

Look Austin, unlike Russian fighter jets, AWACS or for that matter even NATO's, Indian fighter jets don't have a on-board tactical data link,nor do the Indian AEW & CS platforms have them. This prevents the latter from providing real-time airborne battle management cues to airborne IAF combat aircraft while operating inside contested/hostile airspace. Neither do they have SATCOM suite aft of the cockpit since such installations will enable the MWF to receive battle management situational awareness updates in real-time from AEW & CS platforms.

So I'm unable to understand with such severe shortcomings, how did the IAF decide to fight against Pakistan effectively.

Austin wrote:I dont think modi used this as stunt to win election but it might certainly help his cause the previous congress government practically did nothing and let the people and armed forces die from terror strike. I dont think modi did any thing great I expected more but atleast he did something rather let the armed forces die from terror strikes.

If Indian media reports are to be believed, last year itself 43 Indian soldiers were killed by jihadis in Kashmir in various incidents. IOW, that's almost equal to the number of Indian soldiers killed on 14th Feb by jihadis.

So why did Modi have to wait for the 14th Feb attack in order to authorize an air strike? Could have done that before.

Also following the Indian air strike, Pakistan attacked Indian military installations in broad daylight and India is yet to retaliate. Clearly it's Pakistan that has won the battle.

jhelb wrote:Meant the AWACS could have used their main radar to jam the incoming AMRAAM that was fired at the Mi 21 Bis.

I am not aware if such can be done.

Bison carries EL 8222 Jammer Pod , If on this mission he carried one is not know.

What is known as Bison Wingman could evade the 2nd AMRAAM C-5 fired at him by F-16 and AMRAAM parts fell over Indian side.

Austin wrote:Look Austin, unlike Russian fighter jets, AWACS or for that matter even NATO's, Indian fighter jets don't have a on-board tactical data link,nor do the Indian  AEW & CS platforms have them. This prevents the latter from providing real-time airborne battle management cues to airborne IAF combat aircraft while operating inside contested/hostile airspace. Neither do they have SATCOM suite aft of the cockpit since such installations will enable the MWF to receive battle management situational awareness updates in real-time from AEW & CS platforms.

Indian Airforce does uses its own datalink to connect it called Operational Datalink ODL

Kindly read this write up by IAF personal on IAF vision

https://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1768_Indian_Air_Force_a_pilot_vision.htm

So I'm unable to understand with such severe shortcomings, how did the IAF decide to fight against Pakistan effectively.

The fact that a Mig-21 Bison which is like 50 designed airframe with 80's avionics could take on a F-16 shows great pilot training of IAF and capability of Bison

Austin wrote:If Indian media reports are to be believed, last year itself 43 Indian soldiers were killed by jihadis in Kashmir in various incidents. IOW, that's almost equal to the number of Indian soldiers killed on 14th Feb by jihadis.

So why did Modi have to wait for the 14th Feb attack in order to authorize an air strike? Could have done that before.

Also following the Indian air strike, Pakistan attacked Indian military installations in broad daylight and India is yet to retaliate. Clearly it's Pakistan that has won the battle.

The political leadership does not want to escalate this into a full fledge war but an opening as been made for future strikes

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/1101739204776730624

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No time like the present to replace the IAF’s MiG-21s, but for anyone who thinks the Bison isn’t a formidable jet to go up against, consider the words of an IAF Su-30 MKI pilot I just spoke to:

jhelb wrote:Look Austin, unlike Russian fighter jets, AWACS or for that matter even NATO's, Indian fighter jets don't have a on-board tactical data link,nor do the Indian AEW & CS platforms have them. This prevents the latter from providing real-time airborne battle management cues to airborne IAF combat aircraft while operating inside contested/hostile airspace. Neither do they have SATCOM suite aft of the cockpit since such installations will enable the MWF to receive battle management situational awareness updates in real-time from AEW & CS platforms.

So I'm unable to understand with such severe shortcomings, how did the IAF decide to fight against Pakistan effectively.

This is the problem, that India have bad habit to replace original components with a mix of foreign components and than have a lot of problems for which they always blame producer and not themselves. Interesting is Su-30MKI, which have only radar Bars-M and IRST from Russia, all other equipment is from India, France, Israel,...






Su-30MKI



Su-30SM

If you look closely, Su-30SM have behind radome white oval antenna, which is for IFDL (intra flight data link), which enable tactical group working and AWACS data exchange. Su-30SM have the same new IFDL as Su-35. Older Flankers and Su-30M2 have square IFDL antenna and it also works well, as Su-27SM3 and Su-33 were well conected in information network in Syria with air groups and ground centers. Russian data link network is battle proven and jets could do precision night strikes with dumb bombs without targeting pods.

On the other hand Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have any IFDL antenna behind radome. It also have empty tail fins, so no RSBN antenna, no ground control data link, etc, like Su-30SM. Most probably its basic radio navigation is civil VOR/DME, which is not that precise. Russian RSBN is the most precise radio navigation system, more precise than NATO TACAN. Civil VOR/DME is far less precise so it is useless for combat operation, specially for bombing with dumb bombs as position of the plane is not precise enough to hit anything. Plane is depending on SATNAV, but the signal could be jammed. Su-30MKI doesn't have Pastel RWR, so it could not program anti-radar missiles. There is a good question, what kind of data link Su-30MKI have and if it is compatible with different AEW&C planes and other fighters like Mirage-2000. MiGs do not have any IFDL.

Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke

medo wrote:On the other hand Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have any IFDL antenna behind radome. It also have empty tail fins, so no RSBN antenna, no ground control data link, etc, like Su-30SM. Most probably its basic radio navigation is civil VOR/DME, which is not that precise. Russian RSBN is the most precise radio navigation system, more precise than NATO TACAN. Civil VOR/DME is far less precise so it is useless for combat operation, specially for bombing with dumb bombs as position of the plane is not precise enough to hit anything. Plane is depending on SATNAV, but the signal could be jammed. Su-30MKI doesn't have Pastel RWR, so it could not program anti-radar missiles. There is a good question, what kind of data link Su-30MKI have and if it is compatible with different AEW&C planes and other fighters like Mirage-2000. MiGs do not have any IFDL.

Like I said India uses its own DataLink called ODL , That is the standard used across all fighters connecting each other , to ground and AWACS

ODL is made by BEL in partnership with IAI of Israel

Here is USAF stating about INdia use of DL in Cope India ex https://www.businesstoday.in/current/economy-politics/fishbed-vs-falcon-why-the-ancient-mig-21-f-16-kill-is-no-fluke/story/324025.html

About the capabilities of IAF pilots, USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said: "What we've seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won't be going home."

"They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out."

Meant the AWACS could have used their main radar to jam the incoming AMRAAM that was fired at the Mi 21 Bis.

Yes, I understand what you meant, but AFAIK no AWACS platform anywhere would have that capacity.

With a big powerful antenna array that the AMRAAM is flying towards that operates in the same band and Su-35 might direct a 20Kw pencil tracking beam at the AMRAAM and that might effectively blind it... the Americans were talking about AESA radars being able to direct high energy radar beams at things to overwhelm them with radar energy, but I have never seen anything like that mentioned for AWACS platforms...

Austin wrote:Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke

I appreciate your posts. Always do. Don't take it the wrong way but this article is a very poorly written article.

If the intention of the author is to explain why the Mig 21 can take on a F 16 then what is the need to reflect on exercises between Su 30MKI & F-15s ?

This author used to work for a Russian news agency. After a string of poor appraisals he was fired.

It seems the IAF rotates their aircraft 24/7. At night it's mostly Su 30MKI, Mig 29, Mirage 2000I that is flying CAP over that area. However during daytime Mig 21s also fly CAP. So this gave the PAF an opportunity. They realized that they can down a Mig 21 with their F-16, but might not be lucky against the Su 30MKI, Mig 29 or even Mirage 2000. That's why they struck at that particular time.

I'm also certain that the Mi 17 helicopter was also downed by a PAF air-to-air missile. There was no technical snag that IAF now claims.

What I'm unable to understand is why did the Mig 21s chase the F-16s, JF 17s? Su-30MKI, Mig 29 would have done a better job.

India is so much occupied with this F-16, that they don't see something else. PAF succesfully test their combination of ZDK-03 AWACS and JF-17 fighters. F-16 is not compatible with ZDK-03 and it needs Erieye AEW&C. In contrast to Erieye, ZDK-03 is true AWACS, which cover 360^o and have better capabilities. F-16 was most probably a strike platform and launch its AMRAAM in self defense and miss the target. Air protection was done by ZDK-03 and JF-17 and this is why this MiG was shot down by JF-17 with PL-12 missile. This is big celebration for China as their tactical combination of ZDK-03 AWACS, JF-17 fighter jet and PL-12 missile reach their first combat kill.

Looks like it's been confirmed that a PAF F-16 was shot down, particularly PAF F-16 that was bought from Jordan:

medo wrote:
On the other hand Indian Su-30MKI doesn't have any IFDL antenna behind radome. It also have empty tail fins, so no RSBN antenna, no ground control data link, etc, like Su-30SM.

That's obviously because Russian export control laws prohibit the export of IFDL antennas, RSBN antenna, IFF tech to any country.

Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa's Press Briefing , Confirms loss of F-16 aircraft and AMRAAM fired and Sucessful Hit at Targets

medo wrote:
This is the problem, that India have bad habit to replace original components with a mix of foreign components and than have a lot of problems for which they always blame producer and not themselves. Interesting is Su-30MKI, which have only radar Bars-M and IRST from Russia, all other equipment is from India, France, Israel,...

Indian Air Force it seems disagrees with you. Their Air Chief said that multiple air to air missiles were fired at Su 30MKI by F 16 and JF 17 but Su 30MKI defeated those missiles using countermeasures.

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/1102945728316485632

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BREAKING: IAF now officially attributes Pak F-16 kill to Wg Cdr Abhinandan. R-73 missile from his MiG-21 was the only weapon fired by IAF group of 8 fighters that went up against the inbound Pak Air Force jets. Abhi’s final call was to say R-73 locked, before he fell silent.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/1103256622200225792

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BREAKING: IAF now officially attributes Pak F-16 kill to Wg Cdr Abhinandan. R-73 missile from his MiG-21 was the only weapon fired by IAF group of 8 fighters that went up against the inbound Pak Air Force jets. Abhi’s final call was to say R-73 locked, before he fell silent.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/1103256622200225792

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Where's the second pilot? Watch what Maj Gen Gafoor, PM Imran Khan said last week. This is one mystery that's not going away.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/1103259413970771968

magnumcromagnon wrote:Looks like it's been confirmed that a PAF F-16 was shot down, particularly PAF F-16 that was bought from Jordan:

No, it is not. This is Indian MiG-21Bison.







Block of engine control have the same number as that F-16, which Pakistan bought from Jordan, but this number is from MiG-21, which India bought in eighties from Hungary.