UFO Narrative

nomadski wrote:Solutions do not have to be simple to be true !

But the simplest solutions are preferable. When someone sees a metallic flying object unlike anything conventional, and it shows up on radar, an actual craft of unknown origin is preferable to a projection from someone's brain...

But within the bounds of present science and evidence , the psychological explanation together with modern physics theories , provide a much better explanation , that covers the entire phenomenon !

No it doesn't..even the skeptics I've read don't invoke what you do.

And UFO lore started in 1917 not 1947 !

You could say at the end of the 19th century with Aurora. But the phenomenon intensified and gained much attention post WWII.

Previous to this date , the cases involved Air ship type visions of cigar shaped objects . Even further back the visions were of Angels or Demons ! Or fairies !

"Flying shields" were reported early in medieval times and many odd shaped flying objects over Nurnberg around the 16th century.

And most recently the triangular objects follow the shape of modern Aircraft !

The typical disc shaped object has no parallel among earthly aircraft; and there are often vast differences in size e.g. the phoenix lights.

But the simplest solutions are preferable.

Traditionally the simplest explanation for disasters and disease is that it is gods will...

Simple explanations are not preferable if you are interested in truth and also in solutions.

God made the tornadoes in the US is a simple explanation, but the solution of going to church and praying more might not be an effective solution.

You could equally argue that the people living there know full well that the area is tornado prone so perhaps they should all live in concrete bunkers underground and then people will be safer... or perhaps live in fully mobile homes that can be moved when bad weather is forecast to safer locations...

When someone sees a metallic flying object unlike anything conventional, and it shows up on radar, an actual craft of unknown origin is preferable to a projection from someone's brain...

But you have to ask yourself what they actually saw and what their brain filled in on its own.

If you get a button and place it on a table in front of yourself and put a second button beside it, and below them put a rubber band... most people will recognise this pattern as being a face, the two buttons are eyes and the rubber band is a mouth.

Obviously there are no eyes or mouths or faces actually involved but humans naturally try to find patterns and similarities to understand and recognise new things and to describe things they had not seen before.

1,000 years ago the only things that flew were birds so if you saw an aircraft you would describe it as a metal bird... a noisy metal bird.

Does not mean a plane is a bird...

https://sputniknews.com/20211216/senate-passed-defense-bill-includes-funds-for-new-agency-aimed-at-probing-ufo-sightings---report-1091582282.html


And reason why blind belief in UFO is harmful  : People wanting to attack area 51 ! Government spending public money , chasing shadows ! A distraction from social problems by creation of a new useless religion . Here the Americans are a victims of their own superstitions . As long as they keep this to themselves !

Now in answer to your assertion that saucers are metallic craft . Perhaps containing occupants like us . If they are physically real , and they fly in atmosphere at 10000 miles per hour , and stop suddenly , then the G-forces will destroy any occupants and the saucer itself . These contradict laws of physics . And if we are to believe the stories that saucers were fired upon in Vietnam war by American boats , and also fired upon in South America by fighter jets and hit , without any damage . And if we are to believe the stories of crashed saucers that were dented by collision with aircraft or disintegrated in Roswell , when they crashed . Then we face a contradiction . If saucers are real and survive hits by cannons , then they should not fall to pieces , if they crash ! Or be dented by collision with light aircraft .

Many internal or external causes lead to visionary or hallucinatory experiences . Among external causes are toxins , lack of oxygen , alcohol , radiation , stress . Among internal causes is chemical imbalance in the brain , loss of a loved one , lack of sleep , near sleep states ,delusions and superstitions . The mechanisms for shared or mass hallucinations and possible external effects exist , but are poorly understood by physics .

As far as we are concerned for now :


( 1 ) Encourage our population to report all strange flying and non-flying objects to authorities , without fear of ridicule or stigma .

( 2 ) Not to fall into the trap by the yanks , and their disinformation campaigns , into following blind alley in research for new aircraft .

GarryB wrote:
Traditionally the simplest explanation for disasters and disease is that it is gods will…

Simplest rational explanations. And I wouldn't call an explanation that requires an all-powerful yet undetectable "god" the simplest.

1,000 years ago the only things that flew were birds

Bats also fly and so do insects. And some human projectiles, even in antiquity.

so if you saw an aircraft you would describe it as a metal bird... a noisy metal bird.

Does not mean a plane is a bird...

Over a millennium ago, a medieval army saw "flying shields."
And as I've written, UFOlogy is not based solely on witness reports. But there have been many highly trained, credible witnesses--pilots, teachers, businessmen etc.[/quote]

nomadski wrote:
And reason why blind belief in UFO is harmful  : People wanting to attack area 51 !

UFOlogy isn't based on "blind belief" and the "attack" never amounted to much...

Government spending public money , chasing shadows ! A distraction from social problems by creation of a new useless religion . Here the Americans are a victims of their own superstitions . As long as they keep this to themselves !

Not much money or distraction as it's still a "marginal" topic….It's gaining credibility but slowly.

Now in answer to your assertion that saucers are metallic craft . Perhaps containing occupants like us . If they are physically real , and they fly in atmosphere at 10000 miles per hour , and stop suddenly , then the G-forces will destroy any occupants and the saucer itself .

Both craft and occupants or propulsion method may be designed to obviate that outcome. It's fallacious to assume our understanding is the last word….

And if we are to believe the stories that saucers were fired upon in Vietnam war by American boats , and also fired upon in South America by fighter jets and hit , without any damage . And if we are to believe the stories of crashed saucers that were dented by collision with aircraft or disintegrated in Roswell , when they crashed . Then we face a contradiction . If saucers are real and survive hits by cannons , then they should not fall to pieces , if they crash ! Or be dented by collision with light aircraft .

It's really a shame people don't read The Alien Grand Design. The phenomenon has conditioning processes underway. Btw there have been many reports of saucers being shot down, so no contradiction.

Many internal or external causes lead to visionary or hallucinatory experiences . Among external causes are toxins , lack of oxygen , alcohol , radiation , stress . Among internal causes is chemical imbalance in the brain , loss of a loved one , lack of sleep , near sleep states ,delusions and superstitions

What specific witnesses were shown to suffer from such conditions?

'........What specific abductees were shown to suffer from such conditions?....... "  Many abduction cases happen during sleep or shallow sleep and many during driving a vehicle , where subject is in relaxed or semi-sleep situation . Betty and Barney Hill were driving vehicle . Whitley Strieber explained experiences during sleep . There are many more cases . Hypnogogic hallucinations .



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnopompic


http://psychicmediumcolumbus.com/the-awakening-quantum-mechanics-of-the-human-brain-and-consciousness/



The interesting part commensurate with modern physics , is more explanatory , in terms of these phantoms or visions , having a cultural bias and go back in history ! And leading to collective experiences .

Also if saucers have been shot down , then they should not be able to perform high G manoeuvres . Still a contradiction . Also saucers internal anti-inertia devices are speculation . Not facts .

There is no physical evidence of any UFO.   Zero.

The idea that governments cover them up so well that not even a fragment is left is BS.  Anything destroyed in the air
will scatter pieces over a wide area.   Otherwise it is not destroyed and has no reason to crash.   Even "controlled"
crashing is messy and would leave physical evidence.   Nobody has ever produce any evidence of a crash site.   Instead
we have inane fantasies about alien autopsies.  

The trick is that it is impossible to prove a negative.  So once the possibility, however dubious, that UFOs exist and visit
Earth is proposed it cannot be walked back.  But really, who cares?  Let the faithful believe what they want.  Only physical
evidence would be of interest.  And the faithful have precisely zero.

But there have been many highly trained, credible witnesses--pilots, teachers, businessmen etc.

When an Airbus was shot down in the late 1980s in Iranian airspace by an AEGIS class cruiser.... the most capable warship in the US navy whose state of the art AESA radar could identify an aircraft by counting the number of fan blades in its jet engine to identify the aircraft... it was crewed by professionals... experts in the field... who all reported the target aircraft they were tracking was descending in an attack pattern to attack their ship. Reviewing the tapes of the instruments show the target climbed to cruising altitude and then levelled off...

It was a HCI problem... there was a mouse like device that allowed the radar operator to shift the cursor on the radar screen to track a target... when the airliner was getting ready to take off it turned on its IFF system announcing it as a civilian airliner and the radar operator on the AEGIS ship detected the squawk and moved the cursor to the target sitting on the runway. The aircraft took off and the cursor on the screen of the radar followed the aircraft as it got airborne but the actual physical cursor stayed at the airport... which was a joint civilian and military air base. As far as the radar operator was concerned an aircraft took off from a military airbase and it started out using a civilian IFF code but over time it changed... because perhaps an F-14 on the airfield turned on its IFF system, which identified it as an unknown. The screen cursor continued to track the airliner but the actual cursor on the airfield was detecting the IFF signal of aircraft on the airfield. The speed and location and altitude information was for the tracked aircraft and it showed a normal steady climb to cruise altitude... just like you would expect for a civilian airliner.

The AEGIS ship was in attack mode... the US called the small boats the Iranian navy used Boghammers... in any other navy they would have called them patrol boats and perhaps treated them with more respect... they had chased some of these Iranian patrol boats into Iranian waters... they had fired warning shots at the helicopter from the cruiser... the captain of the AEGIS ship decided that his helicopter was under fire and therefore he was free to fire back to "defend" the helicopter and the ship so he started firing his main gun at the Iranian patrol boats.... then they detect this civilian airliner taking off in his direction and he assumed it was an F-14 on an attack mission... despite the F-14 probably being the last aircraft you would use to attack a ship because it simply was not really capable of such an attack really.

Anyway... long story short... these professionals thought this climbing airbus was a descending F-14.... not sure why the radar didn't realise the difference at the time.

They got medals and almost 300 people died.

GarryB wrote:

But there have been many highly trained, credible witnesses--pilots, teachers, businessmen etc.

When an Airbus was shot down in the late 1980s in Iranian airspace by an AEGIS class cruiser.... the most capable warship in the US navy whose state of the art AESA radar could identify an aircraft by counting the number of fan blades in its jet engine to identify the aircraft... it was crewed by professionals... experts in the field... who all reported the target aircraft they were tracking was descending in an attack pattern to attack their ship. Reviewing the tapes of the instruments show the target climbed to cruising altitude and then levelled off...

It was a HCI problem... there was a mouse like device that allowed the radar operator to shift the cursor on the radar screen to track a target... when the airliner was getting ready to take off it turned on its IFF system announcing it as a civilian airliner and the radar operator on the AEGIS ship detected the squawk and moved the cursor to the target sitting on the runway. The aircraft took off and the cursor on the screen of the radar followed the aircraft as it got airborne but the actual physical cursor stayed at the airport... which was a joint civilian and military air base. As far as the radar operator was concerned an aircraft took off from a military airbase and it started out using a civilian IFF code but over time it changed... because perhaps an F-14 on the airfield turned on its IFF system, which identified it as an unknown. The screen cursor continued to track the airliner but the actual cursor on the airfield was detecting the IFF signal of aircraft on the airfield. The speed and location and altitude information was for the tracked aircraft and it showed a normal steady climb to cruise altitude... just like you would expect for a civilian airliner.

The AEGIS ship was in attack mode... the US called the small boats the Iranian navy used Boghammers... in any other navy they would have called them patrol boats and perhaps treated them with more respect... they had chased some of these Iranian patrol boats into Iranian waters... they had fired warning shots at the helicopter from the cruiser... the captain of the AEGIS ship decided that his helicopter was under fire and therefore he was free to fire back to "defend" the helicopter and the ship so he started firing his main gun at the Iranian patrol boats.... then they detect this civilian airliner taking off in his direction and he assumed it was an F-14 on an attack mission... despite the F-14 probably being the last aircraft you would use to attack a ship because it simply was not really capable of such an attack really.

Anyway... long story short... these professionals thought this climbing airbus was a descending F-14.... not sure why the radar didn't realise the difference at the time.

They got medals and almost 300 people died.

It is not the topic, but thank you for calling out that blatant warcrime.

Speaking about UFO's, anyone know of JAL1628 from 1987?.

I happen to have the official report of that one
NORAD actually spots the contacts near JAL1628, JAL 1628 is not actually jammed, but something is making the JAL 1628's radio transmissions to break up.

I am not an tin-foil hat type of guy, but i have seen and heard enough things in the millitary, and trough millitary contacts that science not have had an good explanation for yet.

i can not post PDF's or attachements, so here are all the images.











































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nomadski wrote:  Many abduction cases happen during sleep or shallow sleep and many during driving a vehicle , where subject is in relaxed or semi-sleep situation . Betty and Barney Hill were driving vehicle .

Just prior to the abduction the Hills were anything but relaxed or semi-asleep! They had seen a strange craft, unlike any conventional craft, following them; Barney got out of the car to see it through binoculars.
Hickson and Parker were neither in bed nor driving.

kvs wrote:
The idea that governments cover them up so well that not even a fragment is left is BS.

Sure just like the Apollo moon landings.

 Anything destroyed in the air
will scatter pieces over a wide area.   Otherwise it is not destroyed and has no reason to crash.   Even "controlled"
crashing is messy and would leave physical evidence.

There was a large debris field at the Foster ranch, cleaned up and taken by soldiers. But not 100% initially, as Mack's son found an overlooked fragment, soon confiscated by troops.

http://www.theironskeptic.com/articles/hill/hill.htm


They probably did fall asleep , either behind the wheel or as they pulled up into side Road , as recalled later . Explains why they lost two hours ! Did they have a long drive from Canada ? Was the Car heater on ? It was September , so probably yes . And this induced sleep .  They were exposed to occult and Science fiction films of similar creatures . The ET rumour , lead to visionary experiences , while they fell asleep .

@ GarryB

Including deception as a cause of UFO phenomenon is , I think , entirely valid . The topic here concerns the narrative of UFO . In this tragic case , deception was used to justify shooting down passenger aircraft . The deception , is still used by many for many more reasons . If we want to know the nature of UFO , then subtract from the narrative , all statements we have doubt about . And these relate to UFO's ! What we are left with , is the real factual part . It will tell a different story !


And as I noticed in the Japan airlines transcript , the pilot clearly referred to " large planes flying in formation " before referring to it as a UFO . It looks highly likely to have been early F117 , on a secret flight path , that assumed a 6 o'clock position to airliner for safety and may have extended Radar reflector temporarily to avoid collision . This is standard practice now , and explains intermittent Radar return by ground control . The pilot later had to cook up the UFO story , to protect American secrets . Then he had to fly a desk !

The lost time crock smells bad. It is always he said, she said. Never anything tangible and objective.
Anything that requires you to accept it on faith is not credible. This applies to religion as well. Some omnipotent
and omniscient entity literally beyond the scope of the universe needs meat puppets to carry out its will.
And when it does intervene it can't handle some chariots. What a joke. As with UFO myths all of it is a
tangled ball of rationalizations, logical contradictions and compartmentalized, cut and paste thinking.

It is not the topic, but thank you for calling out that blatant warcrime.

All the officers on the ship were experts in their field and still mistook a climbing airbus for a descending F-14... they all said it was descending but the recorded information showed it climbed to its operational cruise altitude and at no time descended till it was hit by a missile of course.

Not just a warcrime, but a covered up warcrime... there was no mention of the US ship being in Iranian waters at the time of the "attack"...

But different rules for different countries...

nomadski wrote:
They probably did fall asleep , either behind the wheel or as they pulled up into side Road , as recalled later . Explains why they lost two hours Did they have a long drive from Canada ? Was the Car heater on ? It was September , so probably yes

The driver, let alone both of them wouldn't have just fallen asleep at the wheel, especially not just after the fear and excitement of sighting a strange craft following them! The phenomenon had them stop, and lose conscious recollection.

 They were exposed to occult and Science fiction films of similar creatures

What proof they actually saw that stuff?? They had no abduction experience until they actually encountered the phenomenon. Note that both of the Hills reported the the same type of experience under hypnosis after sighting a strange craft while still conscious.

kvs wrote:Never anything tangible and objective.  

Sure no injuries, no implants nor the radar sighting reported for the hill craft….

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TZplgWW3zec


I have recently thought about a good recipe for aliens . This one cooks them in their own ( sauce ) saucer ! But in answer to your point about collective  hallucinations being similar . I agree this is odd ,  but similar mass hallucinations exist and are understood to relate to  folklore and  fairy stories . I find the simultaneous nature of mass hallucinations far more interesting , and the fact that they appear in a physically defined area ! That is why I say ( personal opinion ) that some collective hallucinations may in some way have a physical reality and observe our physical laws ?! An external projection of the mind . This should no longer be left to the occult or paranormal sphere , since quantum effects allow similar mind over matter phenomenon .

A personal experience of mine as a child of four or five ! My also very young friend and neighbour , knocked on my door and said : A man has stuck his head out of the wall and was looking at me ! He and I were both alone in our houses at the time . We stood in the street , while I collected some pebbles and threw them at the Windows in his house , shouting come out , come out whoever you are ! Nobody exited the yard , that we were stood , looking at . But suddenly and for a very short time , I saw a small Chimp like figure with long ears , jump extremely fast over the yard wall , and as it reached the apex of the wall , it vanished !  At the same time as I saw this apparition , the kid standing next me shouted : what was that ??

Now the figure looked to me to be like the figure of a " Jin " ! An Islamic folklore creature mentioned in the Koran ! I remember just before that incident that , there was a TV programme ( 1964- 1965) about the appearance and shape of " Jin " on TV , by a Mullah , who was classifying Jin , to have tails or some have hoofs....Therefore I can understand my own experience in the light of cultural background etc , but the simultaneous and external expression of hallucinations , is indeed strange !

nomadski wrote:
That is why I say ( personal opinion ) that some collective hallucinations may in some way have a physical reality and observe our physical laws ?! An external projection of the mind .

The exact same thing projected by scores or hundreds of (different, even vastly different) minds in some cases? It's more parsimonious to conclude it's real but of a generally unknown nature.

But suddenly and for a very short time , I saw a small Chimp like figure with long ears , jump extremely fast over the yard wall , and as it reached the apex of the wall , it vanished !  At the same time as I saw this apparition , the kid standing next me shouted : what was that ??
….Therefore I can understand my own experience in the light of cultural background etc , but the simultaneous and external expression of hallucinations , is indeed strange !

Sure, and you shouldn't assume it was a hallucination just because you don't have a ready prosaic explanation. Reminds me of the Kelly humanoids of '55.

Have you ever had hallucinations ? They are pretty normal and vast numbers of healthy people have them . Some hallucinations , such as hearing your name being called by a friend ( auditory hallucinations ) , when in fact they did not , occur every day . Hypnogogic hallucinations are also very normal . As it seems are collective or mass hallucinations . Although the exact mechanism is not well understood . Kids in South America hallucinate about giant Robots . Those in ME about Jin and those in Ireland about fairies and those in USA about Grey aliens ........

nomadski wrote:
Have you ever had hallucinations ?

Not that I recall.

Those in ME about Jin  and those in Ireland about fairies and those in USA about Grey aliens ........

Greys or various humanoid beings, associated with strange flying craft, have been reported in many countries. Edwards included an account of Australian aborigines who saw them back in the '50s. Also many UFO reports involving occupants have associated physical evidence like at Socorro.

The brain engages in interpolation/substitution of your visual input if it comes in too fast or is outside the norm for your pattern
recognition. This accounts for children being scared by seeing strange things. Their brains have not sampled enough of parameter
space compared to normal adults (ones not trapped in a limited environment). I recall being spooked by something that looked like
a headless dog when i was around 6 years old. (Oddly, it resembled a houndeye in Half Life minus the eye but this was
before personal computers were even a thing and behind the iron curtain.) I did not go back and check so I do not know what
that was but most likely it was a visual figment.

People do not have to hallucinate to see bizarre things. Mass hallucinations may be mass psychosis. If you get a group of people
riled up with hysteria they will start to see things and to make bizarre interpretations of events. Mass hysteria is a horrible pathology
of human brain function. It is not surprising that people are killed under such conditions.

It looks like starman is in the minority here ! I bet if there was a poll , then most posters would say , they have had some type of hallucinations . I have had at least three hypnogogic hallucinations ! One after a heavy meal of spaghetti ! And one after a bad case of flu , when I had a fever ! I also once saw a white orb ,  pass my house and disappear ! At least I am not alone in this . The previous Iranian president Rouhani , also admitted seeing a white orb , near a holy site or building . He attributed religious significance to it , but for me , it was just a visual experience . Having experiences such as these , I think are normal .

The problem arises when there is no insight by the individual . That is , there's no objectivity and the individual attributes these to an entirely real experience . In psychiatry the worst cases are those , where the patient shows no insight . The case you mentioned about the headless dog , is then a mistaken or misinterpreted perception . A fantasy or phantasm rather than a vision , which is a product of the subconscious , describing my strange Chimp experience .

Starman , the grey alien is by large a rumour transmitted verbally by the English language . This rumour  leads to visionary experiences in the English speaking world , just Google it for a map of the world and you will see the link .

Distinguishing between illusions and visions is not too difficult . If the perceived object  is of a size of an object expected in the vicinity , and moves with the expected speed of the object , but looks dissimilar to it , then the likelihood is that of an illusion . An example is mistaking a Bear for the Yetti ! But if the perceived object has no parallel in the environment for size and speed , then the likelihood is that of a product of the mind entirely . An example is the weightless and lightening fast lights in the sky .

nomadski wrote:
I have had at least three hypnogogic hallucinations ! One after a heavy meal of spaghetti ! And one after a bad case of flu , when I had a fever !…..Having experiences such as these , I think are normal .

It may be "normal" for something to adversely affect your perceptions, occasionally, but key UFO witnesses were not, to my knowledge, so affected (by flu, stomach ache etc). Witnesses tend to be educated or highly credible people. It's also noteworthy that the bulk of experiences occur in rural settings as opposed to urban ones where the bulk of people, including psychotics, reside.
It's interesting, btw that someone else saw that "chimp" which argues it wasn't just "in your skull."

Starman , the grey alien is by large a rumour transmitted verbally by the English language..

A great variety of humanoid types has been reported globally.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3wF9IVqdOQY


The " guru , " says that past the 1975 to 1985 , that most reported cases of UFO / abduction , were not hoaxes but fakes , organised by the MIC to misdirection attention from secret programmes . These similar to MK - ultra , used remote paralysis and drugs and psychic manipulation to do this . He says that he was part of this programme of secret classification ! But he also directs our attention at similarity to old folklore to expand on  the UFO phenomenon ! And that this programme deliberately reduced the phenomenon to that of UAP , whereas the phenomenon itself is much bigger and is unexplained and not scientifically studied . He says that the phenomenon is not a case of Radar and chemistry ( it is more complex ) , otherwise there would have been a solution by now !



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj0FKqp7fTM

The " experiencer / Novelist " seems to have entire family involved in abduction cases . He wrote a couple of horror novels at first . Like old black and white horror movies , the stories usually contain many contradictions ! For example a demon that can fly , will abandon an open window to fly into a building , and instead would break down the door to enter ( more dramatic and cheaper special effects ) . Look at old movies , and see how many contradictions , you come up with ? The aliens may be sadistic galactic perverts , but they could not possibly have mastered space travel , with failed logic !