Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #9

Would I be correct in thinking that a functional radar using photonic processing would be an analog of a PESA radar, ie using a centralised RF generator. If so, might the promise of photonics be the real reason why Russia has not gone down the AESA route that is so touted by the West, and which is held up by the NAFO trash as a prime example of "Russian backwardness"?

Photonic radars will use Photonic micro integrated circuits thus being AESA's.
However, going for PESA's was not a backwards move by russia, at the period where russian used PESA's, AESA tech was immature and the advantages it had did not outweigh the better energy efficiency of the PESA. Hence why the APG-77 had even less range than it's russian analogue, being a PESA.
Then there's the fact that those are antenna technologies, the radar is made of many other things, and russia did a lot of innovation in beamforming software and so on.
Now that tech has matured, we are seeing russian AESA's more often, like the N036 and Zhuk AMEh which is as good as it's US analogue, the APG-83.

The problem is that if current radars using MMICs were to use 100ghz they will lose signal because they are more affected by the atmosphere. Most Russian helicopters operate in fire control or the centimeter wave range to achieve above 100km rangers while the Apache chose a ka-band which touches the millimeter wave frequency but despite more precision and more targets to track its range is limited to 8kms. Any firecontrol radar that operates in the millimeter wave with MMICs will have limited range usage. It is one of the reasons why most ISP companies use 2ghz-5ghz frequencies for cellular networks and enabled wifi laptops to connect with other devices on the internet like a random server hosting a webpage and usually download speeds wirelessly are mostly under 1 gbps if millimeter frequences were used for any longdistance communication it will not work lol why is why most transmitters at best use 5ghz frequences.

Assuming all the different Russian companies that have worked on photonic radars that have used PICs says it has worked might not be convincing to the western public as they will view it as Russians trying to hype up super radars like quantum radars that are not applicable to the real world from their experiences of existing radars. But radars in general are transceiver modules and if they are mass producing those PICs as we speak sometime this year as they predicted in their 2023 article about transceivers using PICs pulling 1000gps data speeds. Most of the current world is dependent on MMICs for their transceivers but they have never suggested using any frequencies higher than 5ghz for more data speed because it is not achievable due to signal loss but the fact Russia is claiming that when mass production hits in 2024 the outcast for most transceivers will be 75-80% of their market only to continue growing from there.

If they managed to make long range communication feasible at 1000 gbps with PICs for transceivers to be applicable to the real world without suffering from signal losses at long ranges than why not have such transceivers with PICs on a photonic radar that will not suffer from long range signal losses either? I don't think current stealth aircraft can deal with a 100ghz frequency from an aircraft that suffers no signal losses.

thegopnik wrote:The problem is that if current radars using MMICs were to use 100ghz they will lose signal because they are more affected by the atmosphere. Most Russian helicopters operate in fire control or the centimeter wave range to achieve above 100km rangers while the Apache chose a ka-band which touches the millimeter wave frequency but despite more precision and more targets to track its range is limited to 8kms. Any firecontrol radar that operates in the millimeter wave with MMICs will have limited range usage. It is one of the reasons why most ISP companies use 2ghz-5ghz frequencies for cellular networks and enabled wifi laptops to connect with other devices on the internet like a random server hosting a webpage and usually download speeds wirelessly are mostly under 1 gbps if millimeter frequences were used for any longdistance communication it will not work lol why is why most transmitters at best use 5ghz frequences.

Assuming all the different Russian companies that have worked on photonic radars that have used PICs says it has worked might not be convincing to the western public as they will view it as Russians trying to hype up super radars like quantum radars that are not applicable to the real world from their experiences of existing radars. But radars in general are transceiver modules and if they are mass producing those PICs as we speak sometime this year as they predicted in their 2023 article about transceivers using PICs pulling 1000gps data speeds. Most of the current world is dependent on MMICs for their transceivers but they have never suggested using any frequencies higher than 5ghz for more data speed because it is not achievable due to signal loss but the fact Russia is claiming that when mass production hits in 2024 the outcast for most transceivers will be 75-80% of their market only to continue growing from there.

If they managed to make long range communication feasible at 1000 gbps with PICs for transceivers to be applicable to the real world without suffering from signal losses at long ranges than why not have such transceivers with PICs on a photonic radar that will not suffer from long range signal losses either? I don't think current stealth aircraft can deal with a 100ghz frequency from an aircraft that suffers no signal losses.

Just like AESA's with regular MMICs they are obviously working on ironing out the disadvantages related to ROFARs and maturing their designs, but naturally you wouldn't expect them to post their advances all over the net.
They are already proposing the sixth gen aircraft to have ROFAR arrays all over the skin working like one big emitter receiver for radar and EW work.

higurashihougi wrote:Su-57 and Kh-69

That is very cool. So it can carry 4 of those bad Larries in one shot.
Reminded me of this I saw the other day.

I know, I feel like the reason they decided to purge the idea of photonic radars from those websites is for the west to stay ignorant, mass produce F-35s than realize later that such aircraft won't work on 100ghz radar waves. waste that money for nothing with their allies and than move on to other aircraft projects if they got the budget for it.

Yes, information about working new systems they are going to put in their aircraft and use on ground vehicles in the future means they could use it to help their own programmes developing the same technology, but also it might make some realise the stealth designs they are making would not be effective against such radar which means all the extra money they are spending on stealth in design and production as well as maintenance is all being wasted... so by not telling them those in the west making money on stealth technology can dismiss their work as propaganda and claim it wont work, which means these expensive programmes wont be cut and better designs wont be developed and put into service.

These 3 pictures in order tell a story that the West has not created an operable photonic radar or got the breakthrough they needed to create a 6g network for wireless 1 terabits of data.

It also shows that such technology is not limited in use like stealth where you want to be able to see aircraft to avoid collisions, but these radar have uses for data communication systems as well as detection and tracking of targets.

Its production base would be enormous which means the volume of components needed for production will allow massive investment to boost both all flying aircraft performances, but also ground based air defence, but putting them in cellphone towers and using them for wifi networks, the numbers needed will be enormous which means they wont be super expensive and only a few being made every year. Mass production will improve the performance of the elements and reduce costs.

When the prices get low enough they can mount them as seekers in missiles... they are supposed to be very high frequency so the imaging of the target should be very very detailed so finding and engaging ground targets from a ground target library would be interesting... even just a very long range missile you can launch into enemy airspace that transmits back data via the radar signal, with a radar array down its sides and at the front scanning for information, with rear pointing arrays transmitting in detail what it is mapping as it flys forward.

The west relied on China for 5G tech.
They will need years to come up with 6G.

But the west are the world leaders so they just have to decide to get hypersonic missiles and 5G communications hardware... silly billy...

Would I be correct in thinking that a functional radar using photonic processing would be an analog of a PESA radar, ie using a centralised RF generator.

I think the new Photonic radar will be an array of active transmitters and receivers like an AESA radar.

If so, might the promise of photonics be the real reason why Russia has not gone down the AESA route that is so touted by the West, and which is held up by the NAFO trash as a prime example of "Russian backwardness"?

Regarding AESA the key is production... they have lots of AESA radar arrays in service with their air defence forces and also appearing on ships.

Getting them down to aircraft size is a challenge and the number of aircraft that will get AESA radars means they are still making them in relatively small numbers.

Anyone who claims Russian radar technology is backwards are idiots... they shot down more than 85% of the super stealthy super secret stealthy UK and French missiles and the ones that did get to targets were not particularly vital targets that would have been heavily defended. Decoys and other distractions also had to be used to achieve that level of result too, which does not bode well for any western stealth weapon even without a lot of AESA radars around the place.

However, going for PESA's was not a backwards move by russia, at the period where russian used PESA's, AESA tech was immature and the advantages it had did not outweigh the better energy efficiency of the PESA. Hence why the APG-77 had even less range than it's russian analogue, being a PESA.

In a way you could compare it with carrier aircraft... the Russians bypassed the need for steam catapults by using fighters with short field operation performance and reduced air to air ordinance requirements, and in the field of AEW they used helicopters to spot low flying threats like sea skimming missiles.

The Russians are now interested in going for cats, but they will skip the steam cats and go for the EM cats whose technology is different enough that developing and deploying steam cats first and then EM cats next would be a waste of money and time and energy and probably a few planes too.

It would be like you decide to make a new sniper rifle... you don't start by making a matchlock musket... and then upgrade it with rifling etc etc.

The problem is that if current radars using MMICs were to use 100ghz they will lose signal because they are more affected by the atmosphere. Most Russian helicopters operate in fire control or the centimeter wave range to achieve above 100km rangers while the Apache chose a ka-band which touches the millimeter wave frequency but despite more precision and more targets to track its range is limited to 8kms.

MMW radar is effected by moisture and can be used as a weather radar... the Mi-28NM has a MMW radar for ground targets and a CM wave radar for air to air. Interestingly the Kh-35 also uses a MMW radar in its anti ship role which makes it rather capable but also effects its performance and makes it very hard to jam because its view of the target is very detailed.

They are already proposing the sixth gen aircraft to have ROFAR arrays all over the skin working like one big emitter receiver for radar and EW work.

Imagine a PAK DA flying wing with such arrays offering 360 degree coverage. They could make another model where the large payload bay is filled with fuel so it can be used as an inflight refuelling aircraft for tactical aircraft to make it safer operating near a front line than if it was a conventional airliner or cargo plane as traditional inflight refuelling aircraft tend to be.

And a jammer aircraft with 360 degree arrays and perhaps a gas turbine APU in the weapon bay to maximise the power levels.

Gomig-21 wrote:

https://twitter.com/ToughSf/status/1779072037526368535

Those have nice details. Although the Short range AAM bay is still incorrect. I wonder why the modeler didnt reference the now widely available patent.

https://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/854/8546b31b0d719348532f7075d5b924e2.pdf
https://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/e79/e794d8582067882b61772b7850eb18ca.pdf
L band arrays confirmed to be radars.

http://www.take-off.ru/item/2257-niip-im-v-v-tikhomirova-podvodit-itogi-goda

"complete interdepartmental tests of our complex, which are carried out on its component parts (the locator itself, the electronic countermeasures system, the identification system, etc.) "
So tikhomirov has a hand in developing the EW system, not just KNIIRTI.

Stealthflanker wrote:
Those have nice details. Although the Short range AAM bay is still incorrect.  I wonder why the modeler didnt reference the now widely available patent.  

Could you expand on that?  What do you mean by still incorrect?  I'm very curious & interested since I have no idea how to access the patent (which I would love to see) even though I tried looking it up, still, what I found doesn't look much different from the quick weapons bays on these graphics.  

I did find these which I thought were extra cool.

In the first one you see the location of all 4 N036 radars including the Kh rear-facing radar as well as all the L-band AESA arrays & IFFs, GLONASS and a very interesting location for the 101KS-U MAWS.  

Some other really cool features locations such as the APU exhaust ports between the HE cooling inlet and the engine nozzle and there's actually a pair of them which is really interesting to me.  I know common sense would tell you two engines need a pair of APUs but I don't think I've seen that on other aircraft with twin engines, unless in this case they're 2 outlets for the single APU?  Either way, some really cool stuff I'm guessing most of youz already know.  



This one shows the extended fuel probe and all the ventilation inlets & outlets including the engine nacelle & air conditioning heat exchanger colling inlets at the base of the V-stabs.  Something that the detractors claim is a negative to the aircraft's RCS reduction which I don't see how that's possible considering their location is conspicuously positioned.

https://findpatent.ru/patent/261/2614871.html

Gomig-21 wrote:

Could you expand on that?  What do you mean by still incorrect?  I'm very curious & interested since I have no idea how to access the patent (which I would love to see) even though I tried looking it up, still, what I found doesn't look much different from the quick weapons bays on these graphics.  

Well you can see the patent Belisarius posted, the missile was "moved" ahead a bit prior to exposing it to the airstream. That's the mechanism which incorrectly depicted. It's kinda trivial however.

Stealthflanker wrote:Well you can see the patent Belisarius posted, the missile was "moved" ahead a bit prior to exposing it to the airstream.  That's the mechanism which incorrectly depicted.  It's kinda trivial however.  

At first I still couldn't tell what you meant, but now I see it. It almost looks like it's attached to the inside of the opened hatch instead of extended out and forward by the mechanism only.

It is a little trivial, but accuracy is what it's all about. Totally agree with you.

101KS-O confirmed to work as an IR sensor on top of being a DIRCM, and is capable of detecting several targets at the same time in a single mirror revolution
https://tvzvezda.ru/video/programs/201412231323-1cpc.htm/2024311132-4PrVg.html

Anyone knows what the orange coating in the IRST dome does?

ALAMO wrote:Just as a thought.
Yellow film is being used for driving grade glasses, to reduce Sun blickings and glare.
I have ones, and those are the only ones that don't affect HUD in my car.
You just can clearly see the indications, even better than with a bore eye.

Ok thank you.

I would venture to guess that it's along the lines of idiom tinted glass, similar to what they use on some cockpit glass canopies that appear "goldish" in tint, which helps scatter opposing radar waves, reducing their chances of penetrating and returning signals.

From Global Security.

A window member composed of a transparent resin or inorganic glass with a transparent conducting film such as gold or ITO (indium tin oxide) coated thereon, is used as an electromagnetic wave shield window for stealth aircraft. Applying such transparent conducting film enables, while maintaining transparency to visible radiation, both a radio wave stealth property which scatters radio waves in various directions so as not to be detected by radar, and an electromagnetic wave shield property which prevents harmful electromagnetic waves, except for visible radiation, from invasion into an aircraft.

The Su-57's canopy getting that coating.



Some very cool information on that HERE.

Anyone got a higher rez version of this?

Atmosphere wrote:https://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/854/8546b31b0d719348532f7075d5b924e2.pdf
https://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/e79/e794d8582067882b61772b7850eb18ca.pdf
L band arrays confirmed to be radars.

So Atmosphere, I couldn't get the text translated from the 1st link since it was pics of literature from a book, but I was able to translate the 2nd link on PDF.  Some interesting stuff since I was just recently having an in-depth discussion regarding those arrays.  I copy/pasted the relevant section below.  Do you know if these arrays are the same exact ones as on the Su-35S? I know supposedly the are, just trying to confirm.  And is there any other info on how they operate with the IRBIS-E since it's obviously a different type of radar than the N036-1-01 X-band AESA and the arrays are L-band.  Or if they work independently?

Translation: Just FYI, this is referring to the Su-57.

On the stand: the performance and characteristics of the AESA have not changed, no modifications are required, and it is ready to continue flight tests." In 2013, the next two prototypes of the fighter (the fourth and fifth) were submitted for testing, which were equipped with a forward-looking radar at the plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur (the fourth and fifth experimental sets). In 2016-2017, five more prototypes of the Su-57 joined the tests, and the final three were already equipped with a full set of multifunctional radar systems, including, in addition to the front, two side and two wing AESAs. An experimental model of side-scan AESA was first demonstrated at the MAKS-2013 air show in late summer 2013, then two prototypes of "side" AESA were manufactured and by 2015 passed the necessary bench testing, after which their flight tests began on board the aircraft. It is important to note that for the final two prototypes of the Su-57 (the 10th and 11th), the AESA radar system kits were worn out.

Not sure what they mean by "worn out" hahaha unless it's a botched translation, but are we talking about the bolded part for confirmation?  Or is there something else I missed and can we positively say they're the same arrays as the Su-35S?

Atmosphere wrote:http://www.take-off.ru/item/2257-niip-im-v-v-tikhomirova-podvodit-itogi-goda

"complete interdepartmental tests of our complex, which are carried out on its component parts (the locator itself, the electronic countermeasures system, the identification system, etc.) "
So tikhomirov has a hand in developing the EW system, not just KNIIRTI.

I guess these two sections answer my questions!

Last year, he actively continued the institute and work on aviation topics. According to Yuri Bely, in 2016 an unprecedented volume of test flights was carried out to test the latest Tikhomirov radars - a total of more than 370 flights, including more than a hundred on fifth-generation T-50 aircraft with a multifunctional electronic system based on AESA and more than 170 on Su-35S fighters with Irbis radar with phased array.

The task is to complete the first stage of the GSE by the end of this year and obtain a preliminary conclusion on the readiness of the complex for serial production. In addition, by about the middle of the year, we must complete interdepartmental tests of our complex, which are carried out on component parts (the radar itself, the electronic countermeasures system, the identification system, etc.) on the stands at our institute and at the subcontractors,"

Outstanding.  So the arrays on the Su-35 are not only L-band AESA and work in conjunction with the ERBIS-E (it would be great to know the detailed technical aspect of how) but also with the N036-1-01 X-band AESA in the Su-57 of course.

My other question would be if the IFF antenna/interrogator AND EW both are integrated in the arrays or are they separate units?  Great stuff.

and the final three were already equipped with a full set of multifunctional radar systems, including, in addition to the front, two side and two wing AESAs.

So of the five prototypes that entered testing from 2016-2017 three of them had all five radar array antennas, namely the main forward looking nose mounted radar, the two sideways looking radar in the nose and the wing mounted forward looking radar. (presumably the other two testing prototypes did not require radar for the purposes of their testing which might have been aerodynamic or structural in nature.

It is important to note that for the final two prototypes of the Su-57 (the 10th and 11th), the AESA radar system kits were worn out.

Suspect what it means to say is that the AESA radar sets in the 10th and 11th prototypes were fully tested and fitted out and operational? (ie no longer under test).

Outstanding. So the arrays on the Su-35 are not only L-band AESA and work in conjunction with the ERBIS-E (it would be great to know the detailed technical aspect of how) but also with the N036-1-01 X-band AESA in the Su-57 of course.

The ground based equivalent anti stealth radar system would be Nebo that uses radars operating in different frequencies that work together at the same time looking at the same airspace and with computer processing the data to combine the results of the different systems to get more information than the two actually collect on their own.

Think of it like using a digital video camera together with a thermal imager to defeat the effect of using coloured fabric for camouflage. The thermal imager would detect the heat of the target which would highlight it and make it stand out from other things nearby that look the same colour but have a different temperature.

My other question would be if the IFF antenna/interrogator AND EW both are integrated in the arrays or are they separate units? Great stuff.

Seems to me by the information you have posted that they are multifunction items able to perform different roles.

GarryB wrote:

Gomig-21 wrote:Outstanding.  So the arrays on the Su-35 are not only L-band AESA and work in conjunction with the ERBIS-E (it would be great to know the detailed technical aspect of how) but also with the N036-1-01 X-band AESA in the Su-57 of course.

The ground based equivalent anti stealth radar system would be Nebo that uses radars operating in different frequencies that work together at the same time looking at the same airspace and with computer processing the data to combine the results of the different systems to get more information than the two actually collect on their own.

Think of it like using a digital video camera together with a thermal imager to defeat the effect of using coloured fabric for camouflage. The thermal imager would detect the heat of the target which would highlight it and make it stand out from other things nearby that look the same colour but have a different temperature.

I figured that was the case with the Su-57 being the N0136A (nose radar) is a full AESA radar which can take the information from the arrays and process them with information from the main radar to give the pilot a fully integrated scenario, despite the arrays being in L-band and the nose radar in X-band.  The software is most likely able to process and combine the information into a single picture.

But what happens when the arrays are feeding the phased array IRBIS-E?  Do they simply ping the main radar and give it minimal information such as target location and then the IRBIS-E takes that information, refines it and uses it to give its own picture?  In other words, it's less of a combining processing and more of an assisting one?

GarryB wrote:

Gomig-21 wrote:My other question would be if the IFF antenna/interrogator AND EW both are integrated in the arrays or are they separate units?

Seems to me by the information you have posted that they are multifunction items able to perform different roles.

That's what I thought also but then looking further into it raised another question of item 4283 which apparently is the IFF processing unit, at least according to this graph and accompanying info which shows it as a separate item to the arrays.



So it appears to me that the arrays are multifunctional (3-way) in a sense that they are AESA radars, perform EW functions as well as act as interrogators/transmitters for IFF and the 4283 unit processes the IFF signals from the arrays to feed the information to the main nose radar. Does that sound about right?

I figured that was the case with the Su-57 being the N0136A (nose radar) is a full AESA radar which can take the information from the arrays and process them with information from the main radar to give the pilot a fully integrated scenario, despite the arrays being in L-band and the nose radar in X-band. The software is most likely able to process and combine the information into a single picture.

I don't know but I would guess that it would also use information from the IR sensors from the IRST and IIR sensors on the aircraft. an AESA radar has individual transmit and receive modules that can each operate at a specific frequency within a range optimised for the type of threat it is searching for and the airspace it is searching through. Longer wavelengths work better through weather, while some higher frequencies detect moisture and rain clouds in the air as well as air targets which limits their potential range.

Think of it like a digital TV camera and a thermal imaging camera and a UV camera all looking at the same time... some things stand out on one type of camera but not on the other types but one camera might show much better detail of the target than the other two would so for instance a human in camouflage standing in front of bushes the same colour as his camouflage will be nearly invisible through the digital camera and the UV camera because it is not emitting UV and the light reflecting off the target and the background look the same, but through the thermal camera the heat from the targets body makes it glow and stand out so a view from the digital video camera with the thermal view overlaid highlighting the target that is glowing in IR is the best combination from those cameras... the UV view omitted because it does not add anything in this case.

The computers on the Su-57 would examine the data from the nose and wing mounted sensors but also the information from the IIR and IRST systems and look to combine them to find things worth the attention of the pilot as targets or threats. For instance an F-22 if the west is to be believed has a tiny RCS in the frequency the nose mounted radars operate at, but the wing mounted radar are not effected by shape or RAM so the F-22 supercruising at supersonic speed at medium or high altitude would be an easy target for IIR and IRST and L band radar to find and track and with that information you could point your nose mounted radar and use a higher energy beam to detect the target and extract location information accurate enough to launch missiles at them.

But what happens when the arrays are feeding the phased array IRBIS-E? Do they simply ping the main radar and give it minimal information such as target location and then the IRBIS-E takes that information, refines it and uses it to give its own picture? In other words, it's less of a combining processing and more of an assisting one?

I would expect all sensors are linked together like they were on the Su-27 and MiG-29, so the IRST can get very precise angular information but not range, but the IRST can find and track a target and you can use that lock to point a tracking beam from the nose mounted radar to get range and speed information. Equally if you are in close combat you can use your helmet mounted cueing system to look at the target... put the monocle on the enemy plane and push a button on the control stick to get the selected missile on the wing pilot to look at where you are looking to get a lock on the target to fire the missile. The HMS could also be used to direct the IRST or radar to a target lock without having to scan a large volume of area passively with the IRST or actively with the radar.

At close range you can use the laser rangefinder for range information without using the radar at all and not alerting most aircraft because most aircraft don't have laser warning sensors.

That's what I thought also but then looking further into it raised another question of item 4283 which apparently is the IFF processing unit, at least according to this graph and accompanying info which shows it as a separate item to the arrays.

That would be logical though wouldn't it.... having a processing unit that collects information from various antenna to collate and process the raw data so it can be presented to the pilot as information. The radars are all antennas collecting information too with processing units operating to process the raw data they collect and try to make it all make sense.

So it appears to me that the arrays are multifunctional (3-way) in a sense that they are AESA radars, perform EW functions as well as act as interrogators/transmitters for IFF and the 4283 unit processes the IFF signals from the arrays to feed the information to the main nose radar. Does that sound about right?

That sounds reasonable. The main nose array could probably cook dinner too while on the ground... it has more power than most microwaves... 500 watts and 3 minutes 55 seconds is the ideal setting for microwave popcorn AFAIK... I expect these radars can do rather better than that.

The Russians take the problem of stealthy aircraft and weapons very seriously and are coordinating a lot of different technologies to dealing with the problem.

That is why the Storm Shadows and Scalps did not do so well.

But they wont let that go to their head and will continue to work on new systems and technologies to defeat stealth platforms of all types.