BTR Selection For Emergency/SHTF/Evac Vehicle

A continuation of a discussion started elsewhere-

http://russiadefence.forumotion.com/member-introductions-and-rules-f6/greetings-from-usa-ohio-t1037.htm


I am wondering whether I should go with the BTR-70 or BTR-80, I am largely leaning towards the BTR-80. However, are there any other options I might have that would be more cost effective or that would better fulfill the criteria I have?

Keep in mind, I am exactly 6'0 feet tall, my father (likely to be the driver or the commander/gunner) is also 6'0 feet tall, my best friend is about 5'11, and most of my friends are between 5'11 and 6'1 tall.

In metric-

Myself = 1.828 meters
Father = 1.828 meters
Best friend = 1.803 meters
Most of my friends are between 1.803 and 1.854 meters

I don't believe any of us would be at home in a T-72 or any sort of Soviet tank of the T series. I had considered going the route of a T-72 and heavily modifying it, removing all shell storage, removing the gun, and basically turning it into an armored transport, indeed a HEAVILY armored transport, but I don't know if I or anybody I know would comfortably fit in the driver's section or any section with how tall we are. I've also thought about BMPs but I've heard those have comfort issues. I'm not looking for a vehicle to go a few miles down the road so I can have everybody pour out and fight a battle. I'm looking for a vehicle that might have to go 3,000 to 5,000 miles while keeping the occupants safe from occasional small arms fire and possible environmental issues (radioactive fallout, chemical contaminants, etc).

The main thing I see myself doing with the vehicle is using it to carry myself, my father, a few very close friends, maybe four to six people (at most), along with a dozen or more rifles, several shotguns, a dozen or so crates of rifle ammunition, several dozen jerry cans of water, several crates of food (mostly heavy military rations and then of course light weight freeze dried food), basic camping equipment (sleeping bags) for a few people, and that's about all I can think of right now. So basically a maximum of six people (counting the driver and the commander) and perhaps 1,000 kilos of equipment/gear/ammo as cargo.



I think now it might be best to post a copy of the criteria from the original thread...



My main criteria for SHTF vehicle...


Armored to the extent that it can at least withstand some .30 caliber rifle and MMG fire, ideally .50 caliber rifle and HMG fire. I don't mind if it requires a bit of extra cash to upgrade the armor to give it protection against .50 caliber, also I plan on wearing personal body armor (Level IV) while inside the vehicle, so whatever fire is coming into the vehicle would first be penetrating the vehicle before it can begin to attempt to penetrate my personal armor. Still I'd rather not have it come down to trusting my personal armor to stop a .50 caliber that may have expended a lot of energy getting through the front armor or may have only expended a little energy getting through.

Engine as easy to maintain as possible. I'm not a diesel mechanic but I know one and could probably pick up a few tricks in over a couple of months.

Fully amphibious, ideally without preparation aside from buttoning up, minimal preparation is okay as long as it is still amphibious.

Wheeled is preferred, tracked is okay if it meets all other criteria.

Ability to carry at least a half-dozen people (counting crew), and provide some room for at least a few people to sleep/rest at a time, even if just lying in a seat and propping legs up somewhere. There should also be the ability to carry at least a dozen rifles, spare parts for rifles, and upwards of 5,000 to 10,000 rounds of small arms ammunition for said rifles.

Ability to mount an HMG (such as Browning M2) as a primary armament, is a major plus.

Ability to mount an MMG (such as M-240 or M-60) as a secondary armament, is a major plus.

Full NBC protection.

Diesel preferred.

Transmission doesn't matter, standard is okay, automatic is okay.

Capable of handling most light obstacles and of some degree of self-recovery (I won't exactly be able to call for an armored recovery vehicle if the thing gets stuck in mud).

Smoke launchers are an added plus.

Multiple entrances/exits, either rear/top, sides/top, sides/rear, or some combination. Best one I can think of would be rear and top or sides and top.

Ability to shoot with personal weapons from inside the vehicle, particularly at threats alongside the vehicle.

Some ability for decent internal lighting would be a great bonus as well.



For the bulk of my criteria I feel the BTR-80 is the best way to go, particularly in regards to "best bang for buck" since it can do what I want it to do, and I believe it can do it cheaper and better than the next best alternatives.

Actually mate, I have been thinking, and I thought that if you need a lot of internal capacity they have a lot of trucks that might do a better job simply because of their size and capacity.

Those big 10 or 12 wheeled trucks they have TOPOL-M missiles on are like mobile command centres where a crew of 5-6 people basically live in them so there is lots of internal space for stuff.

Obviously as you go bigger it means more armour etc, but then you could probably armour certain parts of the vehicle better than others.

Even something like the truck that carrys the Scud missiles, with the missile removed of course, you could put a superstructure on top and make it into a caravan type thing. Then of course you could just use a bus as a basis or a western truck.

The issue with the BTR-80 is that it will not stop 50 cal reliably so you will need to do some work on it. Now if you are going to have to do some work on it anyway then why not go for a larger base vehicle.

If it is for survival purposes then you can design the armour so that it is modular and can be fitted when needed, because all that weight is going to reduce performance... and until you need it for survival purposes you might want to take it for camping trips and the like. A truck will look less menacing turning up at a lake than a BTR-80. You could even go for the 6 wheeled chassis of the SA-8 vehicle as that is already amphibious and with the weapon system removed there would be a huge amount of space available.

How maneuverable is the SA-8 vehicle?

As for the BTR-80, I like that it has room for a squad (I don't imagine ever needing a full squad to ride in it, so I could get rid of some of that room), and it has weapons mounts (which could be switched/customized to accommodate the Browning M2 and the M-60 or M-240 as needed).

Part of the issue will be price... I'd prefer to spend as little as possible (who doesn't prefer that) but I'd probably have to set my upper-most limit around $40,000 to $50,000 dollars which would require the vehicle to be just about new or absolutely new. I'm not sure what the market price on a BTR-80 is but I've seen BTR-70s for sale for $10,000 dollars in the Ukraine, so I imagine a good price on the BTR-80 might be $20,000 or $30,000 depending on where you go to buy it and how bad they want to get rid of old mothballed vehicles.

AFAIK the SA-8 vehicle is quite manouverable and is also full amphibious.

It would probably be a case of trying to get in touch with the right people and finding out what is available.

...and of course what you can get into the US.

A BTR for an emergency vehicle? Not likely... the space is too cramped and the interior too hot. Those engines are also underpowered, you would be surprised how often they get stuck. A better evac would be a Kamaz truck chassis with an NBC cabin rigged in back. It can go anywhere with speed and have an interchangeable module for different situations.

Vladimir79 wrote:A BTR for an emergency vehicle? Not likely... the space is too cramped and the interior too hot. Those engines are also underpowered, you would be surprised how often they get stuck. A better evac would be a Kamaz truck chassis with an NBC cabin rigged in back. It can go anywhere with speed and have an interchangeable module for different situations.

What are the armor options for the Kamaz?

Can the crew cabin be upgraded with armor?

BTRfan wrote:

What are the armor options for the Kamaz?

Can the crew cabin be upgraded with armor?

You can uparmour anything that can take a weight penalty, Kamaz trucks can easily take 20mm plate.

http://kamaz.net/en/company/sport

they have good performance histories in the Paris to Dakar rally.

Get their catalogue here:

http://kamaz.net/en/vehicle/catalogue/

The performance is hard to beat...

I'm impressed, however I have one big question left, can she swim?

Also, is it possible to have the rear cabin/living quarters/storage quarters/NBC cabin, linked to the crew cab of the truck so I can just turn around in the driver's seat, move a foot or two back, lift a hatch/door and then walk into the living quarters? Basically I'd like to know if I have to exit the vehicle to get into the back cabin.

It would ford, but I think it would be tricky to get armoured and swimming at the same time.

Regarding access from the front drivers position to the rear area that should be an option I would assume.

These vehicles would have similar volume cross sections as a bus though shorter, but with much better cross country mobility.

The Kamaz Triumf might be a good example of what Vlad was talking about... tires can be inflated and deflated for driving on hard and soft surfaces (ie Motorway and sand/mud/snow) while the wheels can be lowered and raised for the conditions... low for low centre of gravity so it doesn't roll too much in turns on the highway, and set high for deep mud or deep snow or rough cross country.

As shown in the video in this thread:

http://russiadefence.forumotion.com/t1515p30-kamaz-refused-to-make-iveco-armored-vehicles

(post number 40)

There is a door from the driver compartment to the rear hull area.

Putting turret rings on it should be easy.

The main problem is that you wont get it for $50,000.

I rather suspect that the Russian shift to new vehicle families in the post 2015 period might make a lot of platforms obsolete and therefore available for purchase.

One vehicle you might like to keep an eye out for is the command versions of the MT-LB.

These have enlarged cabin areas though they are fully tracked their cross country mobility is excellent and fully amphibious.