Ka-52 in Russian Air Force

GarryB wrote:16 Apaches can carry 16 Hellfires each but each missile is not that fast and has a max range of about 12km at best which means even within range of 100mm and 130mm guns and any 57mm guns that might be fitted.

Another issue is Hellfire or any other PGM that has live relaying of video footage feature will alert enemy air defenses. That's because any kind of electronic emission like live relaying will alert the enemy.

Quite true but I also suspect a large number of high speed rocket powered missiles will have a significant heat signature that will alert IR sensors.

Equally such attacks are not launched out of the blue, and with organisations like NATO leaking like a sieve early warning of the plans could lead to issues and problems for the attacker...

The Russian Navy is becoming net centric with a unified IADS across platforms, with links to land bases, satellites, subs and aircraft, so the chance of surprise is diminished significantly.

Of course there are some attacks from which there is little in the way of defence, but the consequences and benefits make such actions seem irrational.

I mean lets say a Russian corvette is attacked by 3 US Marine carriers with say.. 20 Apaches launching the naval equivalent of Brimstone from 40km range... 16 per aircraft... so that is about 320 missiles... so that corvette gets sunk... how long is Russia going to wait before launching Kh-32 and Zircon and Onyx and Kinzhal attacks on those three carriers... and is the loss of three carriers worth sinking one corvette and starting a war?

More importantly tying up 20 Apaches to attack one corvette is an enormous waste of resources, or having a sub equipped with hundreds of small short range missiles is a total waste of a submarines capacity... instead of having hundreds of slow easy to shoot down small short range missiles it could carry smaller numbers of larger heavier much much faster and much longer ranged missiles like Zircon and upgraded Onyx...

And that is the issue... you can use stealth or speed with manouver performance or numbers... the talk in the US of using numbers suggests they don't have speed as an option and their stealth is not working... traditionally the west has used numbers and stealth... lots and lots of Harpoons and Tomahawks and of course stealthy planes to deliver them, while the Soviets looked at US carrier groups with AWACS and IADS like AEGIS, and they realised that their missiles are going to be detected so their best option is to shorten the detection and interception window by making them fast.

Scramjets have made very much faster easier to achieve... mach 5 or faster used to require rocket propulsion which is big and heavy and does not burn for long enough for decent range... scramjet means you carry fuel and collect the O2 on the way from the air around the platform... it also means you can use the throttle to use fuel much more efficiently...

GarryB wrote:is the loss of three carriers worth sinking one corvette and starting a war?

U.S will use non-state actors/mercenaries to attack Russian ships and other assets. They won't attack directly. They only attack third world countries directly.

GarryB wrote:
The idea of multiple small threats used together to overwhelm the defences of an air defence system is based on use against small speed boats with heavy machineguns or light cannon or rocket launchers in the back, and basically Hellfires are the solution to be fired individually at each small boat.

US fighters will launch decoys like ADM 160 MALD as part of the first strike wave. They are equipped with radar enhancers to give them the radar signature of a strike fighter.

As you may have imagined the goal there is to overwhelm an air-defense network with false targets so that a) they turn on their radars and become susceptible to anti-radiation missiles b) the real fighters can get to their targets without getting shot at too much. If the enemy wastes missiles on decoys, even better. So whether the SAM in question is S-400, TOR, BUK etc this is how NATO will try to hit these SAM systems.

The SR71 Blackbird had the ability to project multiple radar images of itself so if a radar seeking missile as on it’s way the missile system would see 10 or 12 images, and of course wouldn’t be able to hit the SR71.

US fighters will launch decoys like ADM 160 MALD as part of the first strike wave. They are equipped with radar enhancers to give them the radar signature of a strike fighter.

As you may have imagined the goal there is to overwhelm an air-defense network with false targets so that a) they turn on their radars and become susceptible to anti-radiation missiles b) the real fighters can get to their targets without getting shot at too much. If the enemy wastes missiles on decoys, even better. So whether the SAM in question is S-400, TOR, BUK etc this is how NATO will try to hit these SAM systems.

The SR71 Blackbird had the ability to project multiple radar images of itself so if a radar seeking missile as on it’s way the missile system would see 10 or 12 images, and of course wouldn’t be able to hit the SR71.

Yeah, but that works both ways... Russian EW might mean they don't see a Corvette at all... or they see hundreds of them... a disposable active jammer can be used to attract all the missiles with home on jam capability... the jammer might be smaller than an office desk but armoured a projecting a target the size of an aircraft carrier so enemy missiles might hit it repeatedly yet never actually explode close enough to the actual jammer itself to destroy it..

SR-71s were tracked from takeoff to landing... projecting alternative targets probably wouldn't be effective enough to save it... the Soviets evolved most of their SAM systems to be able to deal with them and projected radar targets are meaningless to a MiG-31s with R-40TD IR guided missiles that could get lockons head on from 120km because of the surface temperature of the SR-71...

The SR-71 was the reason the R-40TD remained in service as long as it did...

U.S will use non-state actors/mercenaries to attack Russian ships and other assets. They won't attack directly. They only attack third world countries directly.

Which pretty much solves the problem... how many mercenaries operate Apache helicopters or subs with hundreds of short range missiles to overwhelm a target let alone false target drones?

although i have heard of the Ka-52 being able to be armed with Kh-35 missiles never seen one armed.

article on it.
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/ka-52k/

It is a rather big missile that the land based Hokum really couldn't take full advantage of... its warhead is about 150kgs so 100kgs lighter than a Kh-38 (though with longer range of course) and 150kgs lighter than the Kh-29s warhead, these air to surface missiles make more sense against hard targets like entire buildings or bridges or heavy bunkers or fortified buildings.

The main feature of the Kh-35 is its stand off performance for use against ships, but its air to surface land attack model might be useful against well protected targets like SAMs and HQs and comms centres etc.

For the naval Ka-52k however in its primary role as anti ship missile and secondary land attack role it would be useful if big and heavy.

Having a choice of weapons is certainly not a bad thing...

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:is the loss of three carriers worth sinking one corvette and starting a war?

U.S will use non-state actors/mercenaries to attack Russian ships and other assets. They won't attack directly. They only attack third world countries directly.

Russia has access to far more non-state actors then the USA. And many non-state actors are afraid of the Russia.

GarryB wrote:It is a rather big missile that the land based Hokum really couldn't take full advantage of... its warhead is about 150kgs so 100kgs lighter than a Kh-38 (though with longer range of course) and 150kgs lighter than the Kh-29s warhead, these air to surface missiles make more sense against hard targets like entire buildings or bridges or heavy bunkers or fortified buildings.

The main feature of the Kh-35 is its stand off performance for use against ships, but its air to surface land attack model might be useful against well protected targets like SAMs and HQs and comms centres etc.

For the naval Ka-52k however in its primary role as anti ship missile and secondary land attack role it would be useful if big and heavy.

Having a choice of weapons is certainly not a bad thing...  

There any sources for its land-attsck capability?

It was tested against groynd targets in Syria. I think there was even some video released by MoD.

But its warhead is made to destroy ship and is not very effective against buildings.

Anyway they are already making a missile for their naval choppers :

Isos wrote:It was tested against groynd targets in Syria. I think there was even some video released by MoD.

But its warhead is made to destroy ship and is not very effective against buildings.

Anyway they are already making a missile for their naval choppers :

What was it launched from?

The only info I have about this is this pic.

If they put it near a kh-35 then it means it's an antiship missile and its size means launch from aircraft. I guess naval helicopters and drones will be main carriers.

They showed photos of the Kh-35 next to Su-34s I seem to think from memory.

Also they have said all of their other anti ship missiles like Granit and Onyx and Vulcan etc etc have been modified to allow land based targets be engaged... don't know whether they use their radar for terminal portion of attack or just GLONASS coordinates.

State tests of the latest Ka-52M attack helicopter will be completed at the end of 2022. Now the efforts of the military and engineers are focused on the early launch of its competitor, the Mi-28NM Night Hunter, in a series.

The Ka-52M is a fully redesigned version of the reconnaissance and strike Ka-52. The car was equipped with new weapons, sighting system and composite armor. Among the experts, the Ka-52M has already received the nickname Super Alligator.

Experts believe that the apparatuses of the Milya and Kamov design bureaus have their own niches - both helicopters will certainly be brought to the series and will enter the troops, albeit at different times.

A phased plan for testing new on-board systems and weapons for the upgraded Ka-52M has already been drawn up (Izvestia has a copy of the document). Helicopter trials are planned to be completed in December 2022, sources in the military-industrial complex told Izvestia.According to the interlocutors of the publication, it has been decided so far to concentrate the main forces on the Mi-28NM project.

The development program of this machine will finish earlier. A large order has already been signed for the Night Hunter.As Izvestia previously wrote, the modernization of the Ka-52 was initiated after studying the Syrian experience in using a helicopter. In the Middle East, Kamov participated in battles against ISIS (banned in Russia), including the operation to liberate Palmyra. Also, several marine vehicles were part of the Admiral Kuznetsov cruiser air group during his trip to the Syrian coast.At the request of the military, the Super Alligator strengthened the reservation.

The airborne defense complex protecting the vehicle from anti-aircraft missiles will also be updated. In its arsenal, the Ka-52M will receive Hermes-A long-range ammunition capable of hitting targets at a distance of 15–20 km. As well as guided anti-tank Vikhr-M with a range of up to 8 km - they have already been used in Syria.For the effective use of new missiles, a multi-channel aiming system GOES-451 will undergo deep modernization.

About half a billion rubles have been allocated for its completion. It is planned to increase the range of detection and recognition of targets using optics and a helicopter radar day and night, in any weather.The engineers also plan to automatically pair the machine with the Sagittarius intelligence, control and communications complex.

Ground forces, special forces and airborne forces will be able to automatically exchange information with the Ka-52M about the situation on the battlefield. This will help to accurately guide aircraft to enemy targets.Pumping "Alligator"Army aircraft operate at relatively low altitudes and are more exposed to the

https://iz.ru/1008123/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/kradushchiisia-alligator-ispytaniia-ka-52m-zavershatsia-cherez-dva-goda

A little off topic but regarding the death by 1000 cuts, I was reading about the exploits of Soviet submarines and read reports where the subs had run out of torpedos and had to use the deck gun. In one case the 47mm AA deck gun of a Soviet sub was used to sink a civilian ship but it took about 3 hours and about 400 47mm shells to do it.

I think this is evidence that it can be done but obviously they would prefer to use torpedos, and if the target had any sort of self defence capacity the sub would have been in enormous trouble.

Regarding 16 Apaches with 16 Hellfire missiles each most Russian ships will have Redut meaning air targets within 40km will be shot down before getting close enough to launch a volume attack and even those without Redut have 100mm guns that can take down air targets with proximity fuse air burst shells against both missiles and shells and of course chaff and flare and smoke protection from incoming weapons.

Back on topic I would suspect a civilian vessel could be stopped and if found to be carrying contraband or illegal items... as with the pirate patrol operations then because of problems regarding ownership of the vessel some times it might be best to remove all crews from the ship and put them in the rescue boats and then sink the main boat... a bit of small arms training to start with and perhaps ending with rocket fire from the naval support helos like the Ka-52M to finish her off.

Russia’s upgraded Ka-52 gunship with long-range cruise missile to complete trials in 2022

During its upgrade, the Ka-52 helicopter will get a new long-range cruise missile codenamed ‘item 305’

MOSCOW, June 11. /TASS/. The Kamov Ka-52M upgraded combat helicopter armed with a new long-range cruise missile is due to complete state trials by October 2022, according to the data posted on the government’s procurement website on Thursday.

"Taking part in state joint trials of upgraded Ka-52M helicopters. Finalizing the helicopters following the results of the state joint trials. The time limits for the contractual work: December 1, 2020 as its beginning and September 30, 2022 as its completion," the documents say.

During its upgrade, the Ka-52 helicopter will get a new long-range cruise missile codenamed ‘item 305,’ with which the Mi-28NM gunship was earlier armed with. The government procurement materials indicate that the upgraded helicopter will get an interface device for this missile, an airborne launcher and a command radio link for employing the missile.

The upgraded helicopter will also be furnished with a new round-the-clock sight system, the latest onboard communications and data exchange systems, satellite navigation equipment and other devices.

As the materials indicate, the first two helicopters will be upgraded before the end of November this year by re-equipping and finalizing the operational rotorcraft. The gunships are due to enter flight tests before May 31, 2021.

A TASS source reported in February that the upgrade would allow the Ka-52M to carry the latest ‘item 305’ airborne cruise missiles with an operational range of up to 100 km. As another source in the domestic defense industry told TASS in March 2019, the latest Russian airborne missile ‘item 305’ was undergoing trials aboard a Mi-28NM helicopter in a real warfare environment in Syria at that time.


https://tass.com/defense/1166749


https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=533258&lang=RU

So this missile seems to be their equivalent of Brimstone... Brimstone is based on the Hellfire and has a 12km range from ground launch but claims a 40km range from air launch platforms (perhaps a Tornado operating at altitude and speed maybe).

Brimstone uses MMW radar to find and engage targets on its own.

This Russian missile seems to use thermal optics and a digital data link so it could be fired ahead and continuously look for targets passively... perhaps sent via autopilot to a location where a target is suspected... perhaps from muzzle flash or noise or radar emission if it is an air defence platform, or the location of the target has been established by another unit.

In terms of keeping the helicopter safe... this is excellent because it could fire the missile over a low line of hills keeping the helicopter itself completely hidden from enemy forces, while allowing that helicopter to see a high resolution IR video view of the terrain ahead and any enemy forces with the HE power to kill targets... for instance any ballistic missile vehicle like a SCUD launcher would be a priority for instance...

From propeller to drone: Russian helicopters will control drones

The first communications equipment with UAVs will receive reconnaissance and strike Ka-52M

The latest Ka-52M attack helicopter, nicknamed the Super Alligator, will be able to interact with unmanned aerial vehicles. For this, special communication and control equipment will be placed on board. Pilots will be able to see the image transmitted by the drones in real time, and in the future - and control their flight. New technology will allow the crew to find targets behind enemy lines and deliver sudden strikes. At the same time, the Super Alligators themselves will become practically invulnerable to enemy air defense.

UAV flying
Equipment for direct communication with UAVs will be installed on the upgraded Ka-52M, sources in the military-industrial complex and the defense department told Izvestia. Currently, the terms of reference for the development of a new system have already been formed and included in the project.

The helicopter crew will be able to receive real-time information from nearby drones and see the broadcast from them on their monitors. Information about the target will be automatically transmitted to the aiming and navigation system of the combat vehicle and can be used to use new long-range missiles, sources added. In the future, the equipment will allow direct control of UAVs from Super Alligators and interact with drones with signs of artificial intelligence.

Full Article
https://iz.ru/1023859/anton-lavrov-bogdan-stepovoi/ot-vinta-do-drona-rossiiskie-vertolety-budut-upravliat-bespilotnikami

Interesting so a Scout helicopter could launch a suicide drone forward into an area with the crew of the helicopter able to see what sort of targets are there and note their coordinates... Hermes missiles could then be launched to attack those targets and the drone itself could be used to monitor the results and then fly into and explode any remaining target...

GarryB wrote: So this missile seems to be their equivalent of Brimstone... Brimstone is based on the Hellfire and has a 12km range from ground launch but claims a 40km range from air launch platforms (perhaps a Tornado operating at altitude and speed maybe).
Brimstone uses MMW radar to find and engage targets on its own.

India was in talks with MBDA for purchasing Brimstone. But at US$ 300K per missile it was deemed to be very expensive. I think outside the UK, Saudi Arabia is the only other known operator of the Brimstone.

So this new Russian ALCM codenamed Item 305 will be of interest to India. Especially now that India has designed a few homegrown attack helicopters like Light Combat Helicopter and Rudra.

India will have to wait to figure out the price of this new missile.

Some users were making a big deal out of a 100km anti-tank missile. But that is not far off from happening since I have posted before KRET's article that the Ka-27 can spot a tank from 70kms away, and I am assuming this helicopter has better radar performance.

thegopnik wrote:Some users were making a big deal out of a 100km anti-tank missile. But that is not far off from happening since I have posted before KRET's article that the Ka-27 can spot a tank from 70kms away, and I am assuming this helicopter has better radar performance.

Was it that perpetual whiner/crybaby on the space battles forum lol? He seems to think it's an impossibility that a helicopter ATGM could have 100km range, but Ka-52's are capable of launching 300km range Kh-35's with their 145kg warheads. He comes off as a guy with diaper rash and soiled trousers, that clown has lost all credibility.

Tanks are getting better and better and are supported by more and more powerful air defence vehicles... so it is becoming more and more important to be able to launch attacks at them from a safe distance.

The further the better within reason... a helicopter wont need a 1,000km range anti tank missile simply because the size of missiles needed to reach such targets would be enormous making them impractical.

A Hermes type missile, being a two stage missile with a slim forward section that can glide efficiently, with the rear portion a solid rocket booster that gives rapid acceleration to rather high speeds rather rapidly means getting the warhead to a target a significant distance away becomes practical and indeed desirable... a steep trajectory up means a decent downward angle for the terminal phase which would be good for sloped armour penetration too.

Remember during Desert Storm one of the things they wanted to take out was some large powerful radars... they chose attack helicopters for the attack due to their capacity to operate at very low altitudes.... having 100km range missiles would have made such a mission much much easier...

They don't need ATGM with 100km range. That would be an expensive cruise missile because missiles with 100km range are already expensive so a miniaturized version would be even more.

30km is already enough and russians have the su-24/25 that can use kh-38 missiles with 80km range. A normal country won't opperate more than 500 tanks so they need to have around 1000 kh-38 and 200 su-25 to have a distinctive advantage.

A mi28 with 10km atgm is already a deadly threat. There isn't many mobile AD systems deployed or in development that can down them at such distances and they can even threaten the AD systems by taking advantage of the terrain and the EW/RWR system allows them to locate the enemy radars.

Also having a targeting system that can lock on a moving tank 100km away and hidden in the woods isn't easy to make or cheap. Modern atgm have very cheap laser receivers and are pretty simple.

Read what Mindstorm wrote about that topic. The VKS wants to use her attack helicopters like front bombers to attack important targets Deep behind the frontline.