Project 677: Lada class submarine

Isos wrote:AIP isn't necessarly used to run the sub. It will more likely be used to just stay on the bottom and wait for a target providibg air to the crew.

If it runs non stop, the 20 days underwarter advertized will be more something like 5 days. Engine will burn the oxygen quickly even if you make it two times bigger (which also means 2 times bugger engines and 2 times more electric consumption and 2 times more expensive.

Yasen/borei have a cost of 800 million. Export kilo can hit 450 million. I would rather have a yasen with 32 VLS and 30 torpedo than 2 kilo with 17 torpedo each and AIP.

Export cost and manufacturing cost has no relationship.

most likely the cost of 4-6 Kilo equal to the cost of one Yassen

I found this article from Mikhail Voytenko.
I will print it here so all get an understanding what AIP really is and what it really means. I especially welcomes Garry and Isos to read it.

"Thailand to buy Chinese submarines
Thailand signed an agreement on Friday to import Chinese-made attack submarines.
China Shipbuilding Industry Corp, one of the Chinese Navy’s biggest contractors, announced on its website on Monday that the agreement to export the S26T submarine was signed in Beijing by Admiral Luechai Ruddit, chief-of-staff of the Royal Thai Navy, and Xu Ziqiu, chairman of China Shipbuilding and Offshore International Co, the trade arm of CSIC.
China Daily May 10 2017

THE NAVY has released a document detailing the reasons why the country needs to spend Bt36 billion on buying three submarines from China. The move came after PM Prayut Chan-o-cha suspended the procurement of the Yuan Class S26T submarines and told the Navy to explain to the public the necessity of protecting the country’s marine interests and why it wanted to buy the subs.
The Nation July 31, 2015

Navy admits price for 3 Chinese vessels MIGHT top Bt36 bn if technology changes
Procurement of the first submarine, worth Bt13.5 billion, was confidentially approved by the Cabinet on April 18. THE Royal Thai Navy admitted yesterday that the deal to buy three Chinese submarines could cost more than Bt36 billion ($1,116 billion).
The Nation May 02, 2017 01:00

To assess Thailand’s deal to build three submarines in China, we have to understand what Air-independent power (AIP) means, and how advanced Chinese AIP technologies and submarines are. As well as propelling the submarine, AIP provides lighting and electrical power for air-conditioning, refrigeration and other loads. Hence Air-Independent Power.

AIP submarines are much more advanced and capable of underwater warfare, than conventional diesel electric submarines, being able to stay underwater for much longer time, up to 1-2 months, and sail at much higher speed. AIP boats may be considered as something in-between conventional and nuclear submarines, but unlike nuclear ones, AIS boats aren’t so noisy, they’re as silent as diesel electric submarines. All of it taken together – underwater endurance and speed, plus silent run – makes them a very effective weapon, more effective and deadly, at least in some applications, than nuclear or conventional submarines. So AIP-driven submarines seem to be the perfect choice for countries which can’t afford nuclear submarines, but are wealthy enough to procure AIP-driven ones.

Thailand is buying from China Yuan Class S26 T boats, which were said to have been developed exclusively for Thailand based on China’s Yuan Class Type 039 A submarines.
They would be nearly 78 metres long and 9 metres wide, equipped with the latest technology AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, that would allow them to dive consecutively up to 21 days without surfacing.
What is Yuan-class, how China got AIP technology and engine, and what’s the status of China Navy in general?
According to Thailand proponents of Yuan-class submarines deal, these China developed and built boats are a perfect choice for operating in shallow Thailand coastal waters, first of all Gulf of Siam waters.
China Navy is also propagating Yuan-Class boats as “coastal” submarines, but some researches cast some doubts on that claim:
…the Yuan is a large conventional submarine, only marginally smaller than a Soryu-class boat—on the order of 15 percent smaller. Perhaps a better comparison would be with the PLAN’s other large conventional submarine, the Russian-built Project 636 Kilo. That comparison shows the Yuan comes out as being slightly bigger than a late model Kilo. As a matter of fact, it is one of the largest conventional combat submarines in the PLAN inventory, and is no more maneuverable in shallow water than other large conventional submarine designs, such as the Kilo or Soryu-classes. If a navy truly wishes to invest in a “coastal submarine,” or SSC, then it would look at submarines like the German Type 205 and 206, and the North Korean Sango, all of which come in at less than 500 tons submerged displacement.
(Inside the Design of China’s Yuan-class Submarine USNI News August 31, 2015)

The AIP engine China uses in its Type 039B submarine is a Stirling Engine imported from Sweden in the 1980s. They say, that China succeeded in copying the engine and installed China’s homegrown version in its 039B conventional submarines, spending almost 10 years in developing a brand new type of engine entirely with China’s own intellectual property. Just how good is this brand new type (and how much of it is genuine Chinese intellectual property), is anyone’s guess. It’s what China claims, nothing more than that.
Bare facts tell us, that Thailand is buying submarines, which are to be built with the use of technologies, which were initially, bought or obtained otherwise, from other countries, including Sweden and Soviet Union. As a matter of fact, Chinese submarine shipbuilding wouldn’t be possible, at the time it started, without Soviet technical and technological assistance. But this is not the end of the story – best known types of Soviet diesel submarines were in fact, developments of German U-boats prototypes. Summing it all up, it comes to a submarine, which is built on technologies and projects, developed in several countries, and somehow mixed into a cocktail, which is called Yuan-Class submarine.

Soviet engineers and shipbuilders didn’t create their own, original AIP technologies. They obtained AIP technologies after WWII, while scavenging in the ruins of devastated Germany’s industries. It didn’t help Soviets much – up until now Russia doesn’t have full-fledged AIP submarine. With many pains, Russia built only one “Lada” type submarine (Project 677), under the name of “Sankt-Peterburg”, in 2004, she was commissioned in 2010, but is still undergoing trials, to be put under repairs and modernization soon (not yet being fully operational). Submarine has fallen far short of requirements, the main problem being AIP. Also there were a number of other major issues.

Why should Chinese engineers and shipbuilders advance with AIP more, than their Soviet colleagues, who laid foundation of modern People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) and naval shipbuilding in China, in the first place? http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/6-2002/at/snec/

A good example of Chinese advances in modern Navy shipbuilding is aircraft carriers. China doesn’t have yet its’own, designed and built, aircraft carrier. The only functional aircraft carrier China has, is an old Varyag (Kuznetsov class) ex-Soviet aircraft carrier, bought from Ukraine and refurbished, having been rolled out in 2011, as Liaoning. As for other aircraft carriers, which are to be built in China, all we know are PLA Navy plans to build two carriers, scheduled to start construction in 2013 and 2015 and launch in 2020 and 2022 respectively.

This year, I received from my Chinese correspondent a translation of an article on nuclear ships and notably, nuclear aircraft carriers, published by one of Chinese newspapers. It said, that Russia, no doubt (and there’s, actually, no doubt), will assist China in designing and building its’ own nuclear ships, with everything needed, from engineering to technologies. “And when we master building nuclear ships, like say, icebreakers, we’ll be capable of building nuclear aircraft carriers, and by that, deprive USA of its’ nuclear aircraft carriers monopoly!” gleefully summarizes author.
Russia is not exactly a paragon of technological breakthroughs, Russia lags on Soviet know-how (which in their turn, were mostly bought, or stolen, in the West – submarines, battle tanks, rockets and jet engines, to name very few). But even those remnants of former technological might are something not yet achieved by China.
So why somebody would look for Navy ships to be built with cutting edge technologies, in China, of all places, is anyone’s guess.

The Thai Navy said it wanted to buy Chinese submarine because it’s efficient and the most value for money. Five other countries would provide only two submarines for Bt36 billion.
Navy accentuated on those boats being AIP driven. Of course it’s a matter of taste and ideas on efficiency, but those who care for quality, prefer fewer first-class expensive things to more but cheaper things, especially in such sensitive matter, as procuring of advanced submarines.

China would transfer knowledge on the sub maintenance, its systems and weapons.
Bearing in mind, that Thailand doesn’t have submarines and doesn’t have submariners, we may assume, therefore, that Thai crews will be trained by Chinese Navy. Again, it’s a question of quality. Chinese Navy, as of now, is a bunch of many steel war-painted floating objects, carrying miscellaneous arms, and brandished around as a Navy, which is second to the US, but will soon surpass it, to rule the waves.
The history of the last several centuries, and especially, 19-th and 20-th centuries, of Chinese Navy, doesn’t demonstrate its’ superb battle qualities. During most part of 20-th century, Chinese Navy was as good as non-existent, being invariably defeated in each, more or less worth mentioning, engagement. There’s no other military branch as dependent on history, traditions and training combined, as Navy. Navy is much more than just ships, however modern they may be. Each and every war, global or local, were proof to it. One can’t but muse, just how good, how up to best standards and practices, will be Chinese training and the knowledge they are expected to transfer to Thai future submariners.
Thailand Navy submarine warfare experience is limited to some 13 years lasting from 1938 until 1951, when the nation did have squadron of four small submarines bought and built in Japan.

PLAN’s initial mentor, Soviet Navy, with all its’ Soviet and Tsarist Navy history, doesn’t have an impressive wins record, either. There were some wins in its’ past, but over inferior Navies only, like Turkish Navy. Soviet Navy in WWII was a total disaster (comparable to 1905 Tsushima Battle, which obliterated most of Russian Navy), and in WWI it did just little better than that. That is to say, that historically, Chinese Navy wasn’t tutored by the best mentors there were.

There aren’t many options in the world for a nation willing to get ground-breaking AIP submarines. A handful of navies can build them, including Sweden, Italy, Germany and France. Some navies claim they are capable of building AIP boats, such as Russia, China and India. But only Sweden, Italy, Germany and France can provide potential buyer with proven product, proven training and proven expertise. Why three cheaper submarines of a dubious quality were found better choice, than two top in its’ class, is beyond my comprehension. Well, of course I have some ideas as to the character of motivations, which were behind Chinese choice, but I’m in no position to discuss them. There are many opponents to this deal, inside Thailand, opponents and critics already said it all.

Voytenko Mikhail
December 2017

References:
Yan-Class submarines: displacement 3,600 t submerged; length 77.6 meters; beam 8.4 meters; propulsion diesel-electric, 1 shaft, AIP; speed 20 knots; max depth 400 meters; complement 38; armament torpedoes (6 tubes), missiles."

Isos wrote:

It would probably be more cost effective to replace all existing batteries with Lithium Ion batteries.

Few months ago I changed my smartphone. The previous one destroyed 2 batteries. After some time they used to inflate, increasing their size by 2, almost ecploding.

That's the issue with Lithium ion batteries. I wouldn't like to have it in my sub.

I think kapanese are already using them in their subs. Let's see how it goes.

Now i agree with you, there are some serious safety concerns when it comes to L.Ion batteries on a submarine.

GarryB wrote:
It would probably be more cost effective to replace all existing batteries with Lithium Ion batteries..

Perhaps, if the safety concerns about these batteries can be worked out.

I would say that the designer said the two new Lada boats would not have AIPs because they probably made teh same decision the Japanese did with their latest Soruyo class sub and replaced the AIP systems with just more Lithium Ion batteries... because they are just better... safer and silent... and possibly cheaper.

I think the Ladas will not having AIP because russia dont have a working AIP engine yet. When its ready it will be retrofitted to Ladas for sure, but perhaps not for all Kilo subs.

So the only effective SSKs have AIPs?

Sounds like the claim you don't have a fighter if it does not have an AESA radar...

No, but i rather have 21 days under water then 5 as a submariner.

LiON batteris could give the same benefit for diesel submarines, for less cost actually.

Lets see how it turns out, and lets see how the Kronshtadt behaves in the sea trials.

Their coastal types don't need to remain hidden for 2 weeks at a time and the ones that do are already nuclear powered.

I think its a important feature to remain hidden for two weeks, stealth is vital. Certainly the majority of naval powers who use diesel submarines are getting AIP.

BTW to put it in perspective the Kilo class has a voyage endurance of 35 days so being able to remain submerged continuously for 14 days on batteries means probably the first 14 days of the trip with fully charged batteries can be submerged, and then perhaps a day or two snorkling to recharge and perhaps move a reasonable distance... another 14 days submerged and it is about time to head home again...

Didnt you just say the Kilos had underwater endurance of 5 days without snorkeling? Now its 14 days? I depends of course what they are doing, but using speed, using a powerful sonar and heat in cold waters takes alot of energy. I seriously doubt they can run more then 5 days on batteries alone.

Isos wrote:AIP isn't necessarly used to run the sub. It will more likely be used to just stay on the bottom and wait for a target providibg air to the crew.

Manned diesel subs are way past their use by date. The way forward is Large Unmanned Undersea Vehicle.

Our Navy is already deploying them in small numbers, initially. Soon they will be armed with torpedoes.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/orca-extra-large-unmanned-underwater-vehicle-xluuv.html

RTN wrote:

Isos wrote:AIP isn't necessarly used to run the sub. It will more likely be used to just stay on the bottom and wait for a target providibg air to the crew.

Manned diesel subs are way past their use by date. The way forward is Large Unmanned Undersea Vehicle.

Our Navy is already deploying them in small numbers, initially. Soon they will be armed with torpedoes.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/orca-extra-large-unmanned-underwater-vehicle-xluuv.html

Have you heard that Russia already introduced to active duty Nuclear Powered Large Undersea Unmanned Vehicles, with motherships ?


USA NAVY hasn't managed to automate the subs on the same level like the 60s Soviet submarines.

They are 20 years behind the Russians reagards of underwater unmanned vehicles.


The conventional shubs lack the speed and range of the nuclear subs, lack the capability of the crew.

And that doesn't matter if they diesel or sterling or fuel cell propeled.


With non nuclear propulsion they will have limited range and limited speed, and they are unusable for anything beyond close coastal patrol.

Singular_Transform wrote:USA NAVY hasn't managed to automate the subs on the same level like the 60s Soviet submarines.

Neither has the Russian Navy. Russia's unmanned vehicle programs for their Army, Navy and Air Force is at least two decade behind the West.

Singular_Transform wrote:The conventional shubs lack the speed and range of the nuclear subs, lack the capability of the crew.

Conventional subs mostly operate in friendly waters and are used for area denial operations. They don't need either the speed or the range of nuclear subs.

Our Unmanned Underwater Vessels can also be air dropped thousands of miles away from the homeland.

Isos wrote:
Armed robots can't replace men.

They could end up destroying civilian ships or your own ships.

No. Has any US Air Force Predator, Reaper rained hellfire on friendly forces? Never.

Armed robots/autonomous systems is the future. The US Navy is even inducting unmanned surface combatants.

RTN wrote:
Conventional subs mostly operate in friendly waters and are used for area denial operations. They don't need either the speed or the range of nuclear subs.

Right, and they can be used in distant waters as well. Speed isnt critical as you often travel slow to avoid detection.

Our Unmanned Underwater Vessels can also be air dropped thousands of miles away from the homeland.

I know, you are busy making war all over the planet to feed your military industry complex.

No. Has any US Air Force Predator, Reaper rained hellfire on friendly forces? Never.

I suspect they indeed have, nonethenless they have have killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians, women and children. Nothing to be especially proud of. Not to mention the whole activity of killing people with reaper drones is against all international law, but you dont care.

Armed robots/autonomous systems is the future. The US Navy is even inducting unmanned surface combatants.

In small numbers they can be helpful, but they can never replace real ships with crew entirely.

runaway wrote:Its like talking to a 10 year old... you simple dont understand.

They don't build t-72 anymore. Only upgrade old one because they are GOOD ENOUGH.

T-14 is the best and for the elit units.

They DO build both Kilos and Lada togehter with Yasens, you dont understand what iam talking about. T14 is very expensive, and only has started production, until it has seen combat there is no way to really evalute the tank.

Same, why would they build AIP when they have nuk subs that are ten times better and kilo class being good enough for coastal areas ? There is no need.  

Why indeed to they build SSKs, Why not build 100 yasen?

They are good. They don't need AIP. AIP is not crucial. They have operated such ships for 80 years.

Nuclear subs offers best AIP possible. And they are just expensive as western AIP subs.

Wow so they dont need AIP and have operated without 80 years... just listen to yourself.
Wrong again, a diesel-electric AIP submarine is 5 times less the price of a virgina SSN. And then we are only talking about price per sub not maintaince and training and the whole nuclear deal.

Chinese AIP os a tank of Oxygen that can destroy the sub if there is a leak of water inside. I would never go inside one of them.

Probably they explodes each other day... warships are just soo dangerous.

Sweeden subs would be dead meat because russians/soviets would have full air superiority and destroy them the first day. With AIP they could only hide a little longer but that won't change anything.

So why bother building anything if the mighty russian airforce will destroy everything the first day?

They are making them expensive for no reason. They just sve money and build only coast guard ships because they will loose any way with Russia.  

Of course, no reason to make them expensive, building modern AIP submarines is so cheap...

Lol. Most of the stuff used in military is 2 or 3 generations old. They don't replace them because they are good enough and new stuff is just too expensive.

AIP just adds some time under water. That doesn't change the diesel sub. It stays the same with a "battery" that runs more than the old ones. You still need to recharge them.

I think you have no idea what AIP means.

"AIP doesnt change the diesel sub". That the most insane and stupid thing i have ever heard. AIP makes a diesel sub almost as good as a nuclear sub, for a fraction of the price. Diesel subs are more stealthy and more quite, only thing they cant compete with is speed.

You obviously dont understand what the big deal with AIP is, or why Kilos and Ladas is lagging behind in this crucial technology. I guess the 10 countries that builds them and the 20 that operates AIP subs are just stupid and not as smart and bright as you.

runaway i have read your posts about ВНЭУ (or AIP like you call it) and its absence in domestic fleet of non nulear submarine.


The element into play is not the importance or not of the integration of ВНЭУ in this class of submarines, that is out of questions, the probelm instead is the parametrical requirements put on this system in domestic Ministry of defence plan and those put in foreign ones.

About 11 years ago (first half of 2009) it was put down a decade development plan -entrusted initially to ЦКБ МТ "Рубин"- that should have produced for 2020 an anaerobic power plant for mid-displacement conventionally propelled submarines with a capacity of at least 300 kW and high specific power output that should have also a very low time and financial logistical burden (for export appeal among typical international buyers of this class of submarines). That power plant should have represented the propulsion basis of future conventional submarines of project Калина.

The Рубин bureau within 5 years was capable to create a wprking prototype of such a power plant that, in virtue of an unique and proprietary technology, not only complied but wastly surpassed those technical requirements way beyond the characteristics of today foreign samples.

The power plant, built around hydrogen reformation from conventional diesel fuel, has an output of over 400 kW (against the 180 maximum of the best foreign counterparts),do not require any hydrogen or oxygen on board neither specialized coastal structures and very costly maintenance and has by far the lower specific density among any similar power plant.

The program is late of three years cause some probelms related to reliability and average live of the power plant, falling short of the requirements and has therefore a next window of validation and introduction for half of 2023 and ,in the mean time, a rival design from "Малахит" design bureau developed with an independent program with similar efficiency has been proposed.

Is important to notice that the aim of Federation MoD has been always to leave a short time window for foreign developers to offer on the international market of conventional submarines (where domestic makers occupy historically a, if not the, leading position) theirs ВНЭУ products based on low risk/low effciency solutions in order to pust them alltogheter from the market for at least a pair of decades when the domestic program will be finalised and an exportable version and the realitive passport will be created.

runaway wrote:Its like talking to a 10 year old...

Yeap, that's a frequent occurrence on this forum

RTN wrote:

Isos wrote:AIP isn't necessarly used to run the sub. It will more likely be used to just stay on the bottom and wait for a target providibg air to the crew.

Manned diesel subs are way past their use by date. The way forward is Large Unmanned Undersea Vehicle.

Our Navy is already deploying them in small numbers, initially. Soon they will be armed with torpedoes.

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/orca-extra-large-unmanned-underwater-vehicle-xluuv.html

What do you think Poseidon is?

Problem with autonomous robot subs is it becomes a game to capture or sink them. It can get expensive, and who are you gonna blame?

So are all the modified Ladas what they call the Kalina Class? It seems the Kalina Class is based on the Lada and the first Lada was a lemon so they heavily modified the design. Is the Kalina yet a deeper mod or is this what they are building now?

A lemon by Russian standards is the height of achievement by the real western standards.  

https://iz.ru/news/507580

The above seems to be the origin of the lemon tag.   The rejection of this model was laden
with excessively harsh language and the Admiralty Wharf company defense is credible.   A
case of the truth falling somewhere in between, unlike in other cases.   The article is from 2011.
But in 2019 we have:

https://www.bairdmaritime.com/work-boat-world/maritime-security-world/naval/submersibles-naval/russia-orders-two-more-lada-class-submarines/

So 5 of them will be operational.   The "final" decision in 2011 was so much BS and this
lemon Lada cancellation fiasco seems to be Serdyukov's baby.

...to end this sort of male genital comparison contest.

An AIP submarine is NOT in any way comparable to a nuclear one.
This because the current AIP systems individually produce a power output way inferior to the one of onboard batteries and/or diesel engine.

So they are usually added to those two to counter their own shortcomings i.e. the small autonomy of batteries and the necessity to surface for diesel.

Actually an AIP submarine proceed by snorkel until can do it in relative security, after it proceed at slow speed until it reach its designated operation zone.
In combat it would use batteries and once depleted it will recharge them using AIP.

Obviously, such a procedure would imply using 3 different and bulky propulsion systems instead of just one as nuclear subs.

Lada, like Spanish S-80 were intended to use a single type of fuel for both AIP and air propulsion but in both cases things turned out more sketchy than expected...

They both have however NOT gave up trying, nor have been others producers/users of actual AIP system in the effort ofovercome current limitations of their own respective products.

A lot of things about it seem impressive. I am sure engine issues can be resolved.
Seems kinda harsh to bin such a promising design.

kvs wrote:A lemon by Russian standards is the height of achievement by the real western standards.  

https://iz.ru/news/507580

The above seems to be the origin of the lemon tag.   The rejection of this model was laden
with excessively harsh language and the Admiralty Wharf company defense is credible.   A
case of the truth falling somewhere in between, unlike in other cases.   The article is from 2011.
But in 2019 we have:

https://www.bairdmaritime.com/work-boat-world/maritime-security-world/naval/submersibles-naval/russia-orders-two-more-lada-class-submarines/

So 5 of them will be operational.   The "final" decision in 2011 was so much BS and this
lemon Lada cancellation fiasco seems to be Serdyukov's baby.

The Navy will receive four improved diesel-electric submarines "Lada"

MOSCOW, March 19. / TASS /. Two improved diesel-electric submarines (diesel-electric submarines) "Velikie Luki" and "Kronstadt" project 677 "Lada" will soon join the Russian submarine fleet, in the future it is planned to start building two more. This was announced in an interview with the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper by the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov.

"In the short term, the Navy will also receive non-nuclear submarines of the Lada type of Project 677 Velikie Luki and Kronstadt," the commander-in-chief said.

According to him, their tactical and technical characteristics and capabilities have been significantly improved. "As for the prospects for these submarines, I can say that it is planned to build two more units," added Admiral Evmenov.

The question of further construction of diesel-electric submarines "Lada", according to the commander-in-chief, remains open. "Regarding the further continuation of the series of submarines of Project 677, I note, it is always justified by the experience of operating a particular submarine project. Based on this experience, we will act," he said.

As if this was some surprise. That is why there is a thing called development. But Russia haters will use any moronic line of thinking
to claim that Russia = Fail.