Project 677: Lada class submarine

Wonder why they went with traditional bow planes.

TMA1 wrote:Wonder why they went with traditional bow planes.

Probably to save space, they are smaller than Kilos


More pics:

Technically they are sail planes and not bow planes.

Nice pics!

My understanding is that they prefer bow planes for subs that surface through ice a lot because they are fully retracted and therefore cannot suffer damage. I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea fleet ports the most where their excellent electronics and sonar equipment would make them rather potent.

It would also be an internal space thing too as the bow planes that completely retract take up more internal space.

GarryB wrote:My understanding is that they prefer bow planes for subs that surface through ice a lot because they are fully retracted and therefore cannot suffer damage. I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea fleet ports the most where their excellent electronics and sonar equipment would make them rather potent.

It would also be an internal space thing too as the bow planes that completely retract take up more internal space.

Later submarines of the Los Angeles class had their planes moved from their sail to bow for precisely that reason. Now that I think about it, I have not seen sail planes on any Russian or Soviet nuclear submarine I remember seeing photos of. So yes, Lada class probably will not be used in the Arctic - though, with global warming, I am not sure ice is much of an issue anymore.

pukovnik7 wrote:

GarryB wrote:My understanding is that they prefer bow planes for subs that surface through ice a lot because they are fully retracted and therefore cannot suffer damage. I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea fleet ports the most where their excellent electronics and sonar equipment would make them rather potent.

It would also be an internal space thing too as the bow planes that completely retract take up more internal space.

Later submarines of the Los Angeles class had their planes moved from their sail to bow for precisely that reason. Now that I think about it, I have not seen sail planes on any Russian or Soviet nuclear submarine I remember seeing photos of. So yes, Lada class probably will not be used in the Arctic - though, with global warming, I am not sure ice is much of an issue anymore.

The very successful series of "Delta" class submarines (Pr.667B/BD/BDR/BDRM) all has sail planes as well as the earlier "Yankee" (Pr667A/AU) class boats.

GarryB wrote:I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea...

pukovnik7 wrote:So yes, Lada class probably will not be used in the Arctic...

All Lada boats are slated for North Fleet, the St. Petersburg is already stationed there

Pacific and Baltic are receiving Kilos

So Ladas will definitely be used in the Arctic

PapaDragon wrote:

GarryB wrote:I suspect the Lada class will be used in the Pacific and Baltic and Black Sea...

pukovnik7 wrote:So yes, Lada class probably will not be used in the Arctic...

All Lada boats are slated for North Fleet, the St. Petersburg is already stationed there

Pacific and Baltic are receiving Kilos

So Ladas will definitely be used in the Arctic

There was a report last year suggesting that the Russian Navy plans for Ladas equipped with some AIP-type system (or equivalent) to be used in the Pacific as hunter-killer subs

KRONSHTADT recent photos

TMA1 wrote:
Wonder why they went with traditional bow planes.

As another said, they are sail planes. Sail planes gives an advantage because they are placed near the center of the ship. This means you can use them to aid in changing depth without creating a large up/down angle on the ship. Bow planes always have to be used with the stern planes (which provides the counter force) in order to change depth without causing a large angle on the ship. Less external components moving means sail planes can be quieter.

Sail planes have a disadvantage on the surface because they are out of the water and don't help you conduct a rapid dive. Also, there are times (for emergencies) when you want a large up angle on the ship to drive toward the surface at full power. Sail planes do not allow for this, however, most submarines with sail planes will also have stern planes to be used for this purpose.

I am surprised Russia has not developed a fuel cell AIP system. They have most of the tech in their space program already.

Recent photos from Kronshtadt
Good size comparison between Lada and Kilo:

Krepost wrote:Recent photos from Kronshtadt
Good size comparison between Lada and Kilo:

Isn't the size difference largely because the Lada Class incorporates a greater amount of automation, resulting in a significant reduction in staffing of crew? Lada has like 35 ship mates compared to Kilo's 52 shipmates, which is a standard reduction of 17 crew shipmates due to greater automation innovation I believe.

I am surprised Russia has not developed a fuel cell AIP system. They have most of the tech in their space program already.

The Russian system was more ambitious than western systems which just use stores of hydrogen and stores of oxygen to run their hydrogen fuel cells.

The Russian system was many times more powerful than existing hydrogen fuel cells which makes them more viable... the Japanese tested fuel cells on a sub and found the energy level was so low the sub was essentially useless while it was charging up the batteries which took much longer than running diesel generators to do so, so while it is quieter, it makes the sub useless for a much longer period.

After experience with an AIP sub the next sub they made removed the AIP and hydrogen and oxygen tanks and just replaced them with more lithium ion batteries.

The Russian AIP is very very interesting because apparently it extracts the hydrogen from diesel fuel, which is handy because a diesel electric sub is already carrying diesel fuel and every port on the planet already has equipment and infrastructure in place to provide diesel fuel to ships and subs.. whereas very few have the same infrastructure for hydrogen or oxygen. It was also reported that this AIP technology generates four or five times more power than existing hydrogen fuel cell AIP types which might actually make them a viable means to recharge and also operate a sub underwater without the loss of function while charging.

Another interesting aspect is that fuel cells don't use combustion so an AIP that uses diesel fuel will create a lot of solid carbon waste and that might be the problem... how to deal with it.

Ironically solid carbon is actually valuable and can be used to make carbon fibre based products as well as carbon nano tubes which offer enormous potential.

Being able to use diesel or petrol or kerosene without combusting it solves a number of problems... transporting and storing hydrogen is a problem because you either need extreme cold or enormous pressure or a mix of both... diesel and other fuel storage is not only easier it is already in place and the distribution networks already in place can remain... your car might lose the internal combustion engine and get a fuel cell, you buy your fuel as normal, but when you fill up you might hand over a large cube of carbon produced from the previous tank of fuel that you can sell back to the garage or take to a recycling place... or do anything you like with... if it isn't burning then it isn't creating green house gasses so it is fine... the exhaust pipe at the back of your car will be releasing water vapour and heat from the fuel cell process that is essentially oxidising hydrogen.

Of course new graphine based batteries might mean you charge up once and can use them for months...

ADMIRALTEYSKIE VERF JSC STARTED CUTTING METAL OF TWO PROJECT 677 SUBMARINES


Note: These are the two that were contracted in June 2019 during the Army Forum.
The official laying down will happen later on this year.

http://admship.ru/press/news/ao-admiralteyskie-verfi-pristupilo-k-rezke-metalla-dvukh-podvodnykh-lodok-proekta-677/

I am wondering when they are gonna start work on the amur class.
Those vertical launchers would be very usefull.

AlfaT8 wrote:I am wondering when they are gonna start work on the amur class.
Those vertical launchers would be very usefull.

Amur is just Lada will VLS segment added on and Navy said they don't need them on SSKs

What matters is that production of Ladas heats up to Kilo speed

Kilos are excellent even today but Ladas are orders of magnitude superior