WW3, Will it happen?

southpark wrote:
You seem to have forgotten that nuclear weapons are indeed used not once but twice and we still have 1st use policy....you think they exist for decorations? Make no mistake, humans are very capable of using them...

hmm and you seem to have forgotten that US used A bombs only for non nuclear armed countries. Even Korea was saved only because could destroy LA/SF+ Seattle with its nukes. Do you really think attack on Russia would end up with nothing in return?


As for US means to counter Russia toys like Avangard & co . You're right IMHO that you dont and decades to develop but to field not sure if 15 years will be enough. So far Patriots/Iron Dome failed miserable, AEGIS could not intercept Korean 70s tech missile flying over Japan. So looks long way ahead of US military to be able effectively use its toys.

BTW why should we assume that in Russian labs R&D is finished and no new weapons are being developed?

You are not getting it....strategists on either side do not think like the way you guys are explaining. Also power is taken, it is not handed down...am not sure why you guys expect America to let its stronger opponents have it easy? Do not get too excited....hypersonics are just new supersonics, no more no less. USSR had supersonics before too (granits, moskits and so on...kinda wonder weapons at the time), did those change the ways of the west? Whatever Russia's new things are, they are no more than a deterrent. USSR was the best shot at countering West and keeping them in check and play by rules because they had quite a few countries around the world that sympathized with them. Current Russia will continue to have difficulties as they do not have reliable allies....globalization adoption also makes things like sanctions very impactful to smaller countries. For Russia, China and India sanctions are impactful but they can easily dodge them. We are kinda stupid to use sanctions as the default option....only weakens us in my opinion. Most countries in the world are still attracted to west....seriously no one cares about Russian's, Indian's and Chinese....just travel as a tourist you will know the difference. Millions of Indian's, Chinese and everyone from around the world want to settle in West and not the other way.

I am not the one taking this discussion off topic...I asked a legitimate strategical question about ss-26 (on land) or kalibr like missiles fielded on small tonnage ships by Bulgaria and Romania....to me what Russia did with small ships or ss-26 is not a miracle....west can do that with no effort and in numbers. Avangard, Posedian are kinda real strategic threats that we will have to address...no disagreement there. One positive for Russia is that they are not defenseless now in a conventional attack and can retailiate in direct proportion. This does not change the fact that west collectively has foot print across globe and economical strength....barring a post ww2 like realignment, things are hard for Russia and China in reality. US has to make really bad blunders to lose these advantages....Syria is one example, where we could have stayed out....only demonstrated our weakness and gave Russia a chance to step in. You will see us re-strategize and realign our forces in the coming years for sure.

southpark wrote:You are not getting it....strategists on either side do not think like the way you guys are explaining.

were we talking about weapons or strategy?      

SP wrote:
.globalization adoption also makes things like sanctions very impactful to smaller countries. For Russia, China and India sanctions are impactful but they can easily dodge them. We are kinda stupid to use sanctions as the default option....only weakens us in my opinion. Most countries in the world are still attracted to west....seriously no one cares about Russian's, Indian's and Chinese....just travel as a tourist you will know the difference. Millions of Indian's, Chinese and everyone from around the world want to settle in West and not the other way.

India + China alone constitute like 40 % of worlds population. USA and whole "west" is like 10-12% while its economic weight is decreasing year by year.  Dependent  on sources but all are saying that by 2030 US is gonna be at moist 3rd economy.  1 China, 2 India.

Recent outburst of US aggression is not a sign of power but desperate to save as much of previous colonies as they can.  Russia and Chine have to wait a bit longer. US is loosing economical war.  It is like Roman Empire destined to either grow or fall. Growth seem to stopped in Syria and Venezuela.

Me thinks that Trump tries to save as much as possible to have own slave farm. It wont be global for sure,  unless Us/Canada + some poor countries (not EU which likely will go to 3rd place in economical position  ) are globe.

BTW Who else really wants to go to west and its not forced to?  fascist regimes set  up by US in Ukraine of Estonia? or Latino countries robbed hundred of years by US?

SP wrote:
I asked a legitimate strategical question about ss-26 (on land) or kalibr like missiles fielded on small tonnage ships by Bulgaria and Romania....to me what Russia did with small ships or ss-26 is not a miracle....west can do that with no effort and in numbers.

Bulgaria and Romania are poorest countries in EU, whos gonna pay them for such expensive equipment?

Avangard, Posedian are kinda real strategic threats that we will have to address...no disagreement there. One positive for Russia is that they are not defenseless now in a conventional attack and can retailiate in direct proportion. This does not change the fact that west collectively has foot print across globe and economical strength....barring a post ww2 like realignment, things are hard for Russia and China in reality. US has to make really bad blunders to lose these advantages....Syria is one example, where we could have stayed out....only demonstrated our weakness and gave Russia a chance to step in. You will see us re-strategize and realign our forces in the coming years for sure.

we see in Venezuela, Libya or  Taiwan can be next.
foot print is now:

GDP PPP in Tn $
US...............20....2%?
Japan.............5...growth...0?
EU,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,22,,,1,5?


China ,,,,,,,,,,24........6,5 (2018)
India.............9.........7
Russia...........4.........2,3..*kooks like form 2021 i to be ~4

There is edge for west but it is shrinking year by year. Under mountains of debts. west s no monolith either  (EU sooner or later will go apart form US.

You are talking like Roman in 4th century to me.

The-thing-next-door wrote:Well not yet but thoes monkeys in thier pentagonal zoo are really pushing it at this rate in a few years chemical and bio warheads will be brought back and promptly inserted into everything that will fit them not already containing a nuclear warhead.

I sincerely doubt that the loose policy of purely retaliatory use of nuclear weapons will remain at that point.

Russia reserves the right to use them also in case of any attack that poses an existential threat to the country. So, they will not attack first but will respond to whatever attack they deem dangerous enough. Clear enough yet vague enough for US planers not to be sure where the limit to their provocations is

we can based short ranged conventional hypersonic missiles on small tonnage boats in Bulgaria and Romania in Black sea. At the minimum it will put pressure on Russia...thoughts?

My thoughts?

That you are psychotic.

What idiot would seek out the only country that can blow them back to the stone age, and take a loaded pistol and place it at their throat with the hammer cocked.

Have you not been paying attention?

Do you think the nuclear bombs in their possession will just turn off and go back in to holes in the ground and then the ticker tape for the parade will fall and it will be like the end of WWII where you get a big say in everything?

Talk about the American dream... wake up.

America is behind and it might catch up and get parity but who the fuck cares... they are not developing dooms day weapons to defeat you you dumb they are making them so you realise dialog is a better way forward than conflict or an arms race, but when american politicians can't tell the difference between Austria and Australia what is the point...

If they thought like you BTW they need to launch an attack right now while they still have an advantage in hypersonic weapons right?

Decades ago there would be possibility of direct contact warfare between the two but today when it's all about missiles (yes, USA can definitely catch up if not already) you will either have peace or extinction level war, middle ground is all but disappeared (I doubt we would even have time to see aerial combat should war happen)

Indeed... the value of those 1.5 trillion dollars wasted on F-35s truly now is actually wasted...

As for after-Putin window of opportunity it doesn't really exist because while everyone over there has their own opinion on internal matters, when it comes to foreign policy everyone agrees on current approach and quite a few (dare I say majority) believe that Putin is way too soft about it

Next guy/gal will most likely be quite harsher

Indeed... the next guy might be Americas worst nightmare...

look at your own history, somewhere you destroyed some group of people and taken away their land, resources e.t.c....color it whichever way you feel good with it.

If the local Maori had TOPOLs we would not have taken their land...

It is one thing to be a bully, but another to be an idiot...

back to ss-26 and other new toys that Russia presented....I think we will counter them or negate them with like to like...in other words MAD will remain between us.

The American military is not interested in Parity or MAD... they want to win... they think they can win.

To me, I am interested in seeing what Germany and France will come up to counter the SS-26 and its future derivatives as they are more of a threat to them than us. Anyone that thinks it will take decades for us to come up with a solution is not being realistic....whoever said that from our side is trying to pocket funds. It really depends on our threat analysis...we may not think it is serious enough for us to go running and find solutions or possibly already have next gen toys in pipeline that provide solutions...reason for us to be so confident or just bunch of morons acting stupid. For me as long as we spend money wisely, we have human resources and tech base to come up with counter solutions....interesting our industry is given a big challenge.

The Iskander... SS-26 has been in service for over a decade... they had adverts for it in the 2002 Russia Arms catalogue... why do you think Germany or France will come up with a solution for that old system... they should be more worried about the next system because it wont have INF restrictions on it...

Well the US military has done fuck all to deal with supersonic anti ship missiles to date, why do you think they will do anything about hypersonic threats?

I am really puzzled with members on this forum to debate on the moral aspects of US as a power....aren't we here to debate on the weapons that kill people? Let's just think like Putin or other US president and not get emotional in every response (pick a decent one...we had some bad luck recently :-)

There is constant propaganda from the US in particular and the west in general that they are the moral and civil centre of the universe and it is important to keep reminding ourselves they are the opposite.

It will be interesting to see how the quoted range of both sides missiles change in the new legal environment.

Ground based missiles were sealed and could not take on extra fuel to extend range... I rather suspect that will change now and performance will increase dramatically... but without the INF treaty why would they release information like range? There is now no obligation.

This is a bit like talking to walls. Russia has no pre-emptive strike policy and their weapons are retaliatory. Therefore you have nothing to counter. Just stop trying to kill them, it is cheaper.

They don't want parity... they want to win...

I sincerely doubt that the loose policy of purely retaliatory use of nuclear weapons will remain at that point.

Once the americans have hypersonic weapons they will want global strike, which is a global murder kill system... how can Russia not change it policy regarding no first strikes?

BTW why should we assume that in Russian labs R&D is finished and no new weapons are being developed?

And once weapons are ready then targets are ready to develop missiles and intercept algorithms and approaches to defeating hypersonic threats...

You are not getting it....strategists on either side do not think like the way you guys are explaining. Also power is taken, it is not handed down...am not sure why you guys expect America to let its stronger opponents have it easy?

America has power because the US dollar is the standard for international trade. Their actions regarding sanctions however is making it unreliable... it was chosen because it was fairly solid, but US actions are making it a risk... just choosing to buy a Russian military system can get sanctions and problems via the US... and there is a mix of reactions but more and more are choosing not to follow the US and buy what they think they need rather than what America demands.

Americas economy is not what it used to be and is not growing... which means its enormous military is going to become unaffordable... cuts will have to be made... 800 odd foreign bases is a financial drain on any country and it is not going to get cheaper to lie and steal and cheat everyone like you do...

New Zealands Weta workshop proved you don't need to make blockbuster movies in the US any more...

GarryB wrote:
Indeed... the next guy might be Americas worst nightmare...

Putin's rank in KGB was Lieutenant Colonel. They say his successor will be Dyumin. Lieutenant General, former Cheri of Special Forces.

LMFS wrote:

The-thing-next-door wrote:Well not yet but thoes monkeys in thier pentagonal zoo are really pushing it at this rate in a few years chemical and bio warheads will be brought back and promptly inserted into everything that will fit them not already containing a nuclear warhead.

I sincerely doubt that the loose policy of purely retaliatory use of nuclear weapons will remain at that point.

Russia reserves the right to use them also in case of any attack that poses an existential threat to the country. So, they will not attack first but will respond to whatever attack they deem dangerous enough. Clear enough yet vague enough for US planers not to be sure where the limit to their provocations is

You guys need to calm down....seems like you have not grasped the history...west is fully capable of going to the end to win. WW1, WW2, Recent chemical attacks...check and check....No need to kick yourself in nuts. Acting like bunch of elementary kids....Putin and Lavrov knows how to play the game and mistakes on either side will be costly. For instance, we blundered in Syria, Russia took the opportunity. They blundered in Ukraine (kinda) but they got Crimea (good) but Ukraine is up in the air with the way things are there....you get the wind of what I am talking about....serious power struggles going on. We have a lot on the line but US and West are leaders and offensive powers...Russia and China play defensively and their whole force is designed around it....

Anyway, I want to thank Papa and Python for answering in context while rest of you kinda getting worked up....I still think we will try to put pressure on Russia by doing exactly what I mentioned and the goal would be to make Russia busy with variety of threats, the goal is not in hitting Moscow or some other city by delpoying hypersonic missiles in Bulgaria or Romania as Python indicated.. SS-26 or Kalibr is not going to change the calculus much but the Posedian and Avangard will....

My thoughts?

That you are psychotic.

Dude, you need to calm down man....you will give yourself a heart attack. What I asked is hypothetical but not impossible....I am psychotic? Whole threads here are based on what if scenarios...you seem to think Russia is some kind of angel that wont hurt a fly...they sell weapons to UAE and without blinking they will sell it to Saudis given a chance who are murdering Yemenis and they possibly fund islamic radicals in Russia too...get real. I can't wait to hear your hypocritical justification...

What idiot would seek out the only country that can blow them back to the stone age, and take a loaded pistol and place it at their throat with the hammer cocked.

Not going to happen....you do not seem to understand the power struggle between super powers that is going on now...they will push each other and that is a given. The clever ones will gain advantage over the other...I thought you would have some weight in your thinking but the few responses from you are just nothing but emotional....as I said there is a reason why Putin or Lavrov does not get riled up on a regular basis....they very well know what is going on...

Rest of your post is just too long and elementary shit....not going to bother...

You are the superpower here....so go ahead and use your power if I hurt your ego and take action on me. You kinda threatened and warned me already in other post.....you can't even handle reasonable discussion calmly and you expect incumbent superpower to give up its power and be reasonable to rising powers.....not going to happen. USSR giving up its power was a rare event in history...,not many incidents in the entire history like that.

Why France and Germany now? Well, we kinda decided that they can not mooch off of us anymore and let us do the dirty work....our treasury has taken a pretty big hit and we have our own in house issues going on....so they need to step up if they want to enjoy the benefits of world domination and lordship over the world....

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

GarryB wrote:
Indeed... the next guy might be Americas worst nightmare...

Putin's  rank in KGB was Lieutenant Colonel. They say his successor will be Dyumin. Lieutenant General, former Cheri of Special Forces.      

It don't matter....it will be hard to step into Putin's place. He has displayed extreme patience, strength and loyality to his country. Our strategists either underestimated him or just too arrogant to have studied him seriously. I still remember silly remarks from Obama administration. You may want to consider non-optimistic scenario also...

southpark wrote:You guys need to calm down....seems like you have not grasped the history...west is fully capable of going to the end to win. WW1, WW2, Recent chemical attacks...check and check....No need to kick yourself in nuts. Acting like bunch of elementary kids....Putin and Lavrov knows how to play the game and mistakes on either side will be costly. For instance, we blundered in Syria, Russia took the opportunity. They blundered in Ukraine (kinda) but they got Crimea (good) but Ukraine is up in the air with the way things are there....you get the wind of what I am talking about....serious power struggles going on. We have a lot on the line but US and West are leaders and offensive powers...Russia and China play defensively and their whole force is designed around it....

Anyway, I want to thank Papa and Python for answering in context while rest of you kinda getting worked up....I still think we will try to put pressure on Russia by doing exactly what I mentioned and the goal would be to make Russia busy with variety of threats, the goal is not in hitting Moscow or some other city by delpoying hypersonic missiles in Bulgaria or Romania as Python indicated.. SS-26 or Kalibr is not going to change the calculus much but the Posedian and Avangard will....

Unless you live in Mars you should be concerned about some guys playing Armageddon like overgrown psychopathic children. Are you a Plutocrat writing from your orbital hideout or one more of the billions to die if the collective West continues to act with such frivolity in the face of massive nuclear retaliatory means? It seems to me you are the one that is not grasping what nuclear weapons mean in regards of "going to the end to win" It will be THE END, literally.

Regarding your complaint that we didn't answer surgically and technically: there was no technical content in your question and rather a bit of provocation. In any case the question would make more sense in a "US Aggression" forum than in a "Russia Defence" one.

Anyway:
> How can US counter Iskander: your question is badly formulated, since this weapon is not offensive and therefore needs no countering. If the goal is not to suffer retaliation from it, they will need to harden their infrastructure and get some sort of AD which is not a joke. They are trying, you just need to keep an eye on the internet to see it. Your idea of the ships makes no sense to counter anything, it is just a further provocation as already many in place with the Mk-41 launchers and NATO build-up on Russian borders. Puzzling that you seem to cheer for that or at least appear so unaffected by it, as it was more war porn from a remote country on CNN screen and not something that will get you and your beloved ones killed...
> What will the West do: exactly what they are doing. Ramp up provocations and spend more money. They will use their puppets in Europe as you "patriotically" proposed with Bulgaria and Romania IIRC for provocations and to take some hits so US can come to the rescue and plunge Russia and Europe in a big conventional conflict that bleeds (again) both of them dry.
> What will do Russia: what they are already doing, reinforce their retaliatory capabilities and continue expanding their economy while increasing their conventional capability to have some sort of escalation control and hopefully save the world (including themselves) from a catastrophe. They are so evil you know.
> How will it end: depends on what happens first, the bankruptcy of the West or a nuclear war. Maybe some change in the West prevents the worse but I don't see it that easy or historically precedented.

Sad part of this is the population of US may die without even understanding how cheap their complicity with their own destruction was bought, just by repeating to them they are Americans and hence entitled to trample on the rights of others. This has already happened before with other forms of fascism and it always ended badly (normally with the side attacking Russia destroyed), only this time it might be worse for all.

Your comment on Putin and Lavrov is funny. You put it as if we were little frightened kids and you and the rest of great statesmen (Putin included) were relaxed, reflecting on their next move on the chessboard while drinking a good whiskey in a never ending match. Putin said to western journos (who ignored him of course) that the world was being pushed in a direction without return and he did not know any more how to draw their attention to the issue. That is calmed and unemotional Russian for more explicit "we are going to WWIII and you idiots are going to be accomplices of your own death"

I get what you mean but West may miscalculate how serious Russia is about not allowing to be destroyed again. They think it is all a bluff don't they?

Neither you nor I have the button to press or choice to change attitudes....we are only discussing based on our observations of the pieces on the board. I quote Zatoichi "Whether you light tobacco with a million dollar lottery ticket or charcoal the tobacco tastes the same". That is my mental state when it comes to general affairs around me and I can pretend something doesn't exist or not there but that does not mean it is truth. I do not let those things bother me. I live an honest life personally not hurting anything around me including env or animals. Unfortunately I do not control beyond that. You do not need to get on your mighty moral horse either. You are getting puffed up for no reason with some kind of hot air like one of those feminists going on and on.

As for technical, it is subjective and I can quote 100 of your posts where you are idle talking. Anyway, what about technical, information is out there and whatever classified remains classified and i just said that this particular missile does not change calculus too much but does bring Russia into a comfortable position vs early 2000's when it was on the brink. Or you prefer I mention how tall, wide and fast this missle goes once again?

I am getting tired of this "I am the pope and save the mankind" kinda of morality. You do not become better by ignoring what is happening around you.

You actually bait me into offtopic with your cermonial mass talk

I tried to answer your question but it is formulated in a way that hides some larger-scale false assumptions to my understanding, so I addressed them. End of the off-topic from my side.

It is ok LMFS....In every post I said what I observed in reality based on what happened or what is happening and it is possible my observations may be flawed but none of my posts actually expressed whether I agreed or disagreed any particular action of either country other than likelihood of certain things occurring based on historical tendencies.

That's it for me....supermod (sorry I should say kiwi) is going to roast me

SP you need to understand the bigger picture your society is unsustainable and your rulers have decided to try isolating competition and using fear to extend its life span but unless they find a way to reverse it your economy an in turn country will collapse outrite, this is not a game of land grabs or world domination but rather your government's attempt to save itself.

The real checkmate is not a Red Banner flying over washington but a new world economy Russia is a scapegoat as they have highly advanced technology, are by far the largest country around and ofcourse have a history of being the "bad guys" in your media, However while Russia does pose a significant threat in the form of competition on the technology market it is China that threatens to deliver the killing blow in the form of a dollar alternative as if people doubt the dollar its value diminishes warranting further doubt and therefore causing its value to spiral down into nothingness.

It goes without saying that your society cannot function the good old way. So unless you want to become zoo animals in the United Republic of Tortea you need to keep you economy intact.

Ofcourse there is always the fun option in witch we all fallout of this boring game of currency and follow the bright light of a new dawn with just the push of a button the whole northern hemisphere could be liberated of meaningless economic systems, I am sure it would be one hell of a blast!

west is fully capable of going to the end to win. WW1, WW2, Recent chemical attacks...check and check....No need to kick yourself in nuts.

You are joking right?

The immaturity and pettiness and arrogance of the western allies in WWI led directly to WWII happening... it was totally unnecessary and terribly costly, even if it did hasten a lot of technologies we enjoy today...

For instance, we blundered in Syria, Russia took the opportunity. They blundered in Ukraine (kinda) but they got Crimea (good) but Ukraine is up in the air with the way things are there....you get the wind of what I am talking about....serious power struggles going on. We have a lot on the line but US and West are leaders and offensive powers...Russia and China play defensively and their whole force is designed around it....

It is the US doing all the blundering... they fucked up Iraq... most of the former pro-saddam sunnis formed ISIS and screwed most other countries in the region.. the US didn't take note till after Iran and Russia were called in by Syria to help clean up the mess the US created... result... America lost in Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan... in fact everywhere except Israel think you are dicks.

In the Ukraine Nuland spent 5 billion of your tax dollars to illegally overthrow a government that was not pro Russia as everyone in the west claims, they were just in the process of accepting a deal from Russia and China that was vastly more appealing to the Ukraine than the shitty loans and promises of the EU. The coup funded by the US pretty much screwed the entire country and almost allowed Sevastopol to become a NATO naval base, but Putin outsmarted you... not hard, but ignores the careful planning needed to ensure no chaos or bloodshed in the crimea while a referendum is held... how ironic that evil democracy hating Putin used the ballot box to let the people of the Ukraine decide their own future, while blood thirsty America uses snipers to shoot people on both sides during protests at maiden to create chaos and bloodshed, and now poverty... I would say the Ukraine is no longer making money from Russia... Russia is learning to make the things they used to get from the Ukraine themselves, so I would say the losers are the Ukraine first of all, but the US and EU because they now have a basket case nazi hell hole to look after, and Russia got their lease of Sevastopol extended to forever, and the Crimea, which was a popular holiday destination for Russians before, so they will be all smiles... a bit of money spent to improve things there but they will be generating revenue for the country soon enough if not already...

So the US forced the Iranians to expand into Syria and increased their sway in Iraq, and forced Russia to move forces into Syria and display quite a bit of competence in doing so... weapon sales have been boosted with interesting improved performances and upgrades based on experience.

.I still think we will try to put pressure on Russia by doing exactly what I mentioned and the goal would be to make Russia busy with variety of threats,

I agree... keep it up... pushing Russia away from the west will stop them becoming like you and they will realise the rest of the world is there... wanting what the west is promising.... free trade and free open markets and fair trade, but it never seems to end up that way when it happens with the west. It happens with the Chinese and it happens with the Russians. They might be poor right now, but they have resources Russia and China don't, which gives them value. As they trade and become more advanced and capable themselves they will thank the Russians and Chinese for free and fair trade not designed to hold them in the third world and as they get richer they can spend more and improve ties with Russia and China and eventually India and the other BRICS countries if they want to keep it up.

the goal is not in hitting Moscow or some other city by delpoying hypersonic missiles in Bulgaria or Romania as Python indicated.. SS-26 or Kalibr is not going to change the calculus much but the Posedian and Avangard will....

The goal can be what ever you want it to be the the actual result will be something similar pointed at your head with the same hair trigger... and with the speed of these things... don't blink... what ever you do... don't blink.

Dude, you need to calm down man....you will give yourself a heart attack.

I am fine.... you are the one poking the bear... I am the one thinking this is going to get messy and I really should look away but I have to watch, because are you really that stupid...

What I asked is hypothetical but not impossible....I am psychotic?

Swimming with sharks is possible... getting in to the lion enclosure at your nearest zoo is possible... but to actually do so is normal behaviour?

Would you agree the high fatality rate would make it uncommon behaviour because after the first person does it and gets ripped to shreds and eaten it often makes the others line up hesitate a bit...

But no... they are just fish and nice big puddy tats... I am sure they wont bite you.  

When you get close to a rattle snake it rattles its tail as a warning... if you keep getting closer and ignore the warning eventually they strike and try to bite you... for millions of years they have developed fangs and a high speed strike and venom that kills... it is really up to you if they use it... why do you keep moving closer to Russia... it is rattling its tail and you ignore it because you think it is weak and you are strong, but guess what... that venom will kill us all... but that is OK in ten years time your venom will be just as strong if not better... except in 10 years time they will have ten years experience of using and defending so their attack will be even more devastating by then... but you are a  and as you say... you just keep on pushing... why?

In your experience do you think people that survived the second world war fought through their country where major cities were destroyed three or four or five times taken and retaken over and over again, the people that fought in Stalingrad and survived the siege of Leningrad... do you think they are just going to say... hmm they have more missiles that us we might as well give up and do exactly what they tell us to do like a little bitch because I am sure they will be much nicer to us and that is all we care about... them liking us...

WAKE UP... YOUR FUCKING AMERICAN DREAM IS GOING TO GET US ALL KILLED.

you seem to think Russia is some kind of angel that wont hurt a fly...they sell weapons to UAE and without blinking they will sell it to Saudis given a chance who are murdering Yemenis and they possibly fund islamic radicals in Russia too...get real. I can't wait to hear your hypocritical justification...

Nobody is saying Russia is innocent... Russia does not want special treatment, Russia does not want to control the world, what it wants is to be treated with respect and be left the fuck alone by the imperial stormtroopers of the west.

Yes, they sell weapons to the UAE, and Saudi Arabia... only a tiny fraction of the 400 billion dollars of weapons the US is selling to Saudi Arabia alone. Russia can suggest but it wont tell its customers or allies what to do. Does you supermarket manager tell you what colour car you need to get when you are buying a new one? Do you think he should do that?

Issues like Yemen should be dealt with at the UN... and every time anyone brings it up or anything about Israel, the US or UK blocks it.

Not going to happen....you do not seem to understand the power struggle between super powers that is going on now...they will push each other and that is a given.

What do you think hypersonic missiles in the Black Sea is?

What do you think Global Strike is all about?

The clever ones will gain advantage over the other...I thought you would have some weight in your thinking but the few responses from you are just nothing but emotional....as I said there is a reason why Putin or Lavrov does not get riled up on a regular basis....they very well know what is going on...

They can only play the hand they are holding right now... with a lot of their actions they have massively improved their situation, and despite wanting to trade and grow with the west these directions of play have been taken out of the game as options and they are looking elsewhere for trade partners and allies. A very sad situation caused by the wests attitude... they won the cold war now they are in charge and they set the hierarchy of power and Russia and China are below everyone in NATO... they are making the exact same mistake as they did just after WWI... what a fuck up that was, and how could you possibly blame any one country for that shit storm, but the west simply blamed Germany and punished them like they planned it from the start... ignoring completely how it really started, and that it actually snowballed because stupid little alliances forced bigger powers to get involved in something that wasn't worth 10 lives let alone 20 million.

But Germany got repeatedly punished for a war they were no more responsible for than the UK or France...

The result of that utter utter stupidity, was a change of the planet... former German colonies were gobbled up around the planet and borders were redrawn in the middle east and royal families and countries created with the stroke of a pen based on known oil reserves by Britain and France... boy that wont come back to bite us in the ass either right?

But now you are doing it again... except Russia has nukes and technology every bit as good as yours... and 1.5 billion Chinese that will more than likely be on their side, plus a possible 1.3 billion Indians too... and a good proportion of the rest of the world too if I am honest.

But no... you keep playing your games...

You are the superpower here....so go ahead and use your power if I hurt your ego and take action on me. You kinda threatened and warned me already in other post.....you can't even handle reasonable discussion calmly and you expect incumbent superpower to give up its power and be reasonable to rising powers.....not going to happen. USSR giving up its power was a rare event in history...,not many incidents in the entire history like that.

Oh cry like a little girl why don't you?

You are the American... you own the internet... surely if I banned you for anything within minutes the black helicopters would be outside my window with orders to shoot to kill because I might have some dirt on the Clintons or the Obamas that they don't want in open court...

Why France and Germany now? Well, we kinda decided that they can not mooch off of us anymore and let us do the dirty work....

What dirty work? Keeping the Russians from invading Europe? Yeah right.... what they need is more land...

our treasury has taken a pretty big hit and we have our own in house issues going on....so they need to step up if they want to enjoy the benefits of world domination and lordship over the world....

When the Soviets pulled out of Eastern Europe they kinda actually expected the US forces to pull out of western europe... not move into eastern europe closer to Russia and the former Soviet States... but now it seems you want them to pay you for your presence.... I think that is a great idea.... why should they not pay... you are protecting them from their fantasies of a Russian invasion... why should you pay anything for that?

What I don't understand is why France or Italy should pay for that though...

It don't matter....it will be hard to step into Putin's place. He has displayed extreme patience, strength and loyality to his country. Our strategists either underestimated him or just too arrogant to have studied him seriously. I still remember silly remarks from Obama administration. You may want to consider non-optimistic scenario also...

His replacement might be rather more proactive and aggressive... he might be even better at playing the game as you say... he might say the west is going to kick Russia out of swift so lets leave and invade the Ukraine... might take a week.... and then lets say the Russians in the Baltic states are calling for help so we have to help them too... that would only take another couple of days... are you honestly going to say you would start WWIII over the baltic states?

Trump and Obama were  and invaded and bombed all sorts of countries... why should Russia not do the same?

Or they could expand their bases in central and south America and bring them out in the open and sell them enormous amounts of high tech weapons like the US did with Saudi Arabia... that would be fun...

They will use their puppets in Europe as you "patriotically" proposed with Bulgaria and Romania IIRC for provocations and to take some hits so US can come to the rescue and plunge Russia and Europe in a big conventional conflict that bleeds (again) both of them dry.

Except hypersonic missile attacks from Bulgaria or Romania... it will be a while before they know if they were conventionally armed or nukes, so the response would probably first of all be to sink the ships, but nuke warheads would result in their countries capitals being nuked too... hypersonic threats to Moscow would likely be countered with a nuclear armed Nudel which by coincidence would probably be the first effective anti hypersonic weapon system simply because it is enormously fast and can carry an enormous warhead which would likely effectively counter any minor differences in trajectory in the terminal attack phase.... a miss by 20m would be a total miss with conventional warheads, but easily destroyed by a 1 MT nuke warhead... but that will make determining if the incoming missile was a nuke or not... why would they launch a conventional weapon however, so just assume it is a nuke and fire at their capital city and brussels and washington where the control of nuclear weapons would be located and see if they want to launch a full scale retaliation... if they do then everything gets launched...

I get what you mean but West may miscalculate how serious Russia is about not allowing to be destroyed again. They think it is all a bluff don't they?

But surely they just need to keep poking the bear because the only reason a wild bear is not a domestic putty tat is because it has not been poked hard enough... from the book training wild animals by poking them with a stick, by a guy named Some Dead Fuck.

Unfortunately I do not control beyond that. You do not need to get on your mighty moral horse either. You are getting puffed up for no reason with some kind of hot air like one of those feminists going on and on.

Yes, of course, you might think that things are the way they are and you can't change them so don't even try... perhaps you are white and not poor and not a woman and everything is basically OK so why rock the boat... it is not so bad once like those round bikes on South Park... I am sure you will understand the reference... getting on the first time is uncomfortable for most heterosexuals, and you might lose a few teeth if you go too fast and are not careful... but everyone is doing it so why not?

As for technical, it is subjective and I can quote 100 of your posts where you are idle talking. Anyway, what about technical, information is out there and whatever classified remains classified and i just said that this particular missile does not change calculus too much but does bring Russia into a comfortable position vs early 2000's when it was on the brink. Or you prefer I mention how tall, wide and fast this missle goes once again?

This missile was in service in the early 2000s, and the Tochka-U missile could do similar things over a shorter range...

Both are based on the Oka missile that had to be scrapped for the INF treaty, so it was not technology that stopped it entering service it was lack of money for anything at all...

They could have had it in service in the early 1990s...

I am getting tired of this "I am the pope and save the mankind" kinda of morality. You do not become better by ignoring what is happening around you.

Welcome to our world.... America has been spreading peace and love for the last 30 years omnipotently as the worlds last and only super power... now Trump is here on the command of god to save israel and start the rapture... fuking nutters.

That's it for me....supermod (sorry I should say kiwi) is going to roast me

I don't ban people unless I have to... I think what you are saying is pretty much the defence I would hide behind if I was in your position having to justify what    my leaders have done with their awesome power and money. They had an enormous potential to do what they did after WWII except do it after WWI instead and avoided WWII. But they just repeated the same old mistakes... they picked a bad guy potential rival to their power and then they picked up the fragments of what they had available including Japan and west germany and they formed a coalition of the willing to waste trillions of dollars in a pointless meaningless cold conflict that lasted most of the rest of the century.

Let me ask you if communism was so evil and so wrong why did America get right in to bed with China and Yugoslavia when it suited them... would it not have been easier to just get friendlier and less aggressive against the Soviets and let time and market forces destroy the corrupt and impossible communist system... I mean if you were so sure it was always going to fail.

But no, the west was not Christian... it did not turn the other cheek... it created war and poverty and it shed blood around the world... and when they finally won and Russia gave up communism and became democratic... you treat them worse now than you ever did... it never had anything to do with communism... they are a rival of enormous potential and you are scared to death they might grow faster that you and influence your citizens to expect more from their government than just taking their taxes and wasting it on weapons they don't need and wars that just kill people and make a few people in the west rich.

Just realised you probably wont read all that, so to summarise I am not going to ban you for having your own opinion and I am mildly offended you think I would... I don't have a history of doing that, why would I start now.

Having said that Cartman is the most annoying characters in SP and would squash him like a bug given the chance because he is an evil self centred little ass hole, but without him the cartoon would be rather more boring.

I will also move a lot of posts in this thread to the talking bollocks thread as being only tangentally related to the thread topic... probably tomorrow.

GarryB wrote:But surely they just need to keep poking the bear because the only reason a wild bear is not a domestic putty tat is because it has not been poked hard enough... from the book training wild animals by poking them with a stick, by a guy named Some Dead Fuck.

good summary!

But in the end the reality is that what we see here with Southpark is just a proof that all this just make Westerners yawn while they sleepwalk into yet another conflict, only this time with a distinct likelihood of getting most of us killed. Putin has been rather harsh last times, going as far as saying they don't care about a world where there is no Russia. A president of a nuclear power talking like that should send people in panic, today it is not even covered in the news. And that is the real danger about current situation as compared to Cold War, we are drunk with overconfidence.

Yes please move this to bollocks thread too...

GarryB wrote:Just realised you probably wont read all that, so to summarise I am not going to ban you for having your own opinion and I am mildly offended you think I would... I don't have a history of doing that, why would I start now.

Having said that Cartman is the most annoying characters in SP and would squash him like a bug given the chance because he is an evil self centred little ass hole, but without him the cartoon would be rather more boring.

I will also move a lot of posts in this thread to the talking bollocks thread as being only tangentally related to the thread topic... probably tomorrow.

Good to know. I thought you are a fair moderator in general albeit a bit unfairly or more like biasedly anti-american so are all wannabe Russian fans here I kinda got over the specs side of the weapons and these days I am more towards personality and strategy analysis. Everyone brags about exaggerating their cock index measurements (remember the southpark cock index episode, funny as hell!) ...so to me they are kinda less consequential than the leaders that potentially can use them. Anyway, thanks for having me....I will find threads that are oriented towards that type of discussion. In that way you don't have to do the house cleaning because of me. I might drop by once in a while if I notice something interesting.

Cheers and save the mankind LMFS!! Just kidding, don't get your panties in a bunch....

No big deal, stuff often needs to get moved around because discussions go off topic for what ever reason... sometimes they deserve their own thread, and other times they don't... only occasionally when posts with no value at all are posted are they actually deleted.

If you can't find threads that interest you, you can always create some yourself.

How about I let you in on a secret... I am an enormous fan of the American way and I think it is excellent, but the problem is that for it to work people need to be better people than they are currently and they could do that but they just don't even want to try.

There is nothing more disappointing that meeting your hero and finding out he is a worse womanising gambling drinking coke snorting asshole than most of the people you thought were the bad guys but are honest enough to admit they are not role models to base your life upon.

When you wake up from the american dream are realise the snake oil is just fizzy sugar water it is hard to take them seriously or idolise them like they like to be idolised.

And I really don't think you have a leader charismatic enough to change your society... your media should be pointing out the problems and demanding solutions but the rich and powerful own the media so they don't want the setup they earned their billions in changed for something more fair... more fair means they become millionaires instead of billionaires and that is not good enough...

I remember a Chris Rock comedy show where he said when he got rich he bought a nice big house in a rich area with gates so you "niggers" can't come in. The place was nice but expensive so only the really rich could live there, so he is there and Eddie Murphy is there... he says... two black people at the top of their game in terms of quality and money... and he said his other neighbours are white and they are lawyers and dentists. He then pointed out that the only black people who can live there are at the top of a very well paid industry, but any old dentist can live there too if they are white...


But poking the bear makes people ignore their other problems and I can tell you when that bear slaps back... well... do I need to tell you why you don't poke bears?

Actually I probably do... I read a news article about people suing other people in the US and one guy sued his neighbour because his neighbours dog bit him on the back side. Fair enough it seems, but when you hear the dog was chained up in the other guys back yard and the so called victim admits he had spent the morning shooting the dog with a bb gun all morning and in the afternoon when a ball he was playing with went over the fence and he went to get it the dog attacked him... yeah... that level of smart is impressive.

Do you think he realised what an asshole he was being when he had to spell it out over and over again (to the doctor, to the cops, to the judge and jury), or did the self righteous just think he was attacked and that is all that matters despite the fact that he created the situation in the first place.

The difference is that Obama and Clinton and Trump have been shooting Putin in the ass all this time and he is ready to rip off some ones head and despoil the corpse...

PapaDragon wrote:Could you take this discussion to WW3 tread?

done