ASW Aircrafts for Russian Navy:

VladimirSahin wrote:

Militarov wrote:

VladimirSahin wrote:I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

Atm in US there are like 100 P3 Orion variants, about 40 or so P8A with 120ish in total on order. Japan for an example also has almost 150 maritime patrol/ASW aircraft and nearly 100 P3s...

F*** sanctions

Well this problem exists since early 90s when many ASW aircrafts were retired and spots were never filled later on.

Regarding your question about nuclear warheads for depth charges Max... as Russian subs get quieter the likelyhood of detecting them at a range where you can use nuke warheads reduces... Sea Lance never entered US service because there was no point... its increase in range over ASROC and SUBROC was pointless because they could no longer detect Russian subs at the longer range.

I see problem abit different, problem is the number of platforms that Russia has. There are very few ASW and maritime patrol aircraft in Russian inventory in general.

I agree, but they have more MPAs than the UK...

I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

Actually I would say Sea Dragon in its domestic version is totally comparable to anything the west has, the problem for both sides is that Russian subs have gotten quieter... to the point where active sonar has become a necessary tactic for surface vessels to detect subs at anything like a useful range on anything like a regular basis. AIP equipped subs will make this even more pronounced as they are quieter than nuke subs.

Well this problem exists since early 90s when many ASW aircrafts were retired and spots were never filled later on.

ASW is expensive.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

GarryB wrote:From the information I have read the domestic version of Sea Dragon should actually be pretty state of the art, and that there are versions for the Il-38 and Tu-142.

The only problems I have read about regarding the Bear is that its high speed design... ie swept wings make deploying ULW or ultra low wave antennas for communications with subs is difficult as the low flight speeds needed to deploy the several km long cables that have to be deployed near vertically means flying at close to stall speed for the Bear... which is an issue of course.

well the problem with export of ASW aircrafts in Russia is that there are no suitable platforms anytime soon. Tu-204 might be but for other reasons is dead...

Why not a derivative of the Be-200 ??

archangelski wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

GarryB wrote:From the information I have read the domestic version of Sea Dragon should actually be pretty state of the art, and that there are versions for the Il-38 and Tu-142.

The only problems I have read about regarding the Bear is that its high speed design... ie swept wings make deploying ULW or ultra low wave antennas for communications with subs is difficult as the low flight speeds needed to deploy the several km long cables that have to be deployed near vertically means flying at close to stall speed for the Bear... which is an issue of course.

well the problem with export of ASW aircrafts in Russia is that there are no suitable platforms anytime soon. Tu-204 might be but for other reasons is dead...

Why not a derivative of the Be-200 ??

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Militarov wrote:

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

archangelski wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.

Militarov wrote:

archangelski wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.  

Probably more efficient, new engines will increase range...now not too impressive comparing to Tu-204. But choice was already made AFAIK.

By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40

https://lenta.ru/new/2016/03/03/albatros/

By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40. This was stated by the chief of the naval aviation of the black sea fleet Colonel Gennady Pens, reports RIA Novosti.

Earlier, in July 2015, a senior source in the leadership of the Navy arguedthat the military order of the anti-submarine aircraft based on amphibian be-200, which, in turn, was created in 1990-ies with the use of hurt on the plane A-40.

Anti-submarine amphibian aircraft A-40 (Be-42 "Albatross" was developed in the early 1980-ies in the USSR to replace the be-12. For the first time the car took off in 1986, in 1990, was put into service, but mass production never got (been released just two instances). In 1998 there was a civil aircraft be-200 (fire-fighting and search and rescue variants) created on the basis of A-40.

Machine takeoff weight of about 90 tons was powered by two turbojet engines D-30КВП (option engines from the Il-76 aircraft). The plane boasted a maximum speed of 760 kilometers per hour and carry up to 6.5 tons of payload. In the airborne weapons could come in three anti-submarine torpedo at-3 "Orlan", four anti-submarine missile the APR-2 "Hawk" or six MAY-3 "eagle", as well as mines, depth charges and sonobuoys.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Militarov wrote:

archangelski wrote:

Militarov wrote:

Be-200 is one of the options, however that would be short to medium range ASW aircraft but if someone asked me Be-42 variant with turboprops would be alot better idea. They also need something long range, with current situation probably something based on turbofan engines (Tu-204?).

http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-42PE_e/A-42PE_e.html

Be-42 was in consideration recently for Russian Navy to replace venerable Be-12, but there is no more news of that intent (and turboprop version was planned with D-27 engines...unfortunately made in Ukraine).

There is always some NK-12 more modern variant as an option.  

Probably more efficient, new engines will increase range...now not too impressive comparing to Tu-204. But choice was already made AFAIK.

By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40

https://lenta.ru/new/2016/03/03/albatros/

By 2020, anti-submarine amphibian be-12 will be replaced by seaplanes A-40. This was stated by the chief of the naval aviation of the black sea fleet Colonel Gennady Pens, reports RIA Novosti.

Earlier, in July 2015, a senior source in the leadership of the Navy arguedthat the military order of the anti-submarine aircraft based on amphibian be-200, which, in turn, was created in 1990-ies with the use of hurt on the plane A-40.

Anti-submarine amphibian aircraft A-40 (Be-42 "Albatross" was developed in the early 1980-ies in the USSR to replace the be-12. For the first time the car took off in 1986, in 1990, was put into service, but mass production never got (been released just two instances). In 1998 there was a civil aircraft be-200 (fire-fighting and search and rescue variants) created on the basis of A-40.

Machine takeoff weight of about 90 tons was powered by two turbojet engines D-30КВП (option engines from the Il-76 aircraft). The plane boasted a maximum speed of 760 kilometers per hour and carry up to 6.5 tons of payload. In the airborne weapons could come in three anti-submarine torpedo at-3 "Orlan", four anti-submarine missile the APR-2 "Hawk" or six MAY-3 "eagle", as well as mines, depth charges and sonobuoys.

Yeah, however turboprops would perform alot better for such platform, especially due to fact its to be medium range/weight ASW platform.

Militarov wrote: Yeah, however turboprops would perform alot better for such platform, especially due to fact its to be medium range/weight ASW platform.

Then Il-114 seems to be best option. Same range (w/o additional tans), similar range/load...I wonder if flying boat buyancy counts here?


IMHO best would be ASW based on Bartini Beriev VVA-14

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartini_Beriev_VVA-14

Looks like Vietnam is gonna have to go with P-3 since it doesn't look like the Il-38 is in production anymore.

AlfaT8 wrote:Looks like Vietnam is gonna have to go with P-3 since it doesn't look like the Il-38 is in production anymore.

There is high posibility they will buy used ones, as US is planning to retire like 80 of P3s by 2018.

GarryB wrote:Regarding your question about nuclear warheads for depth charges Max... as Russian subs get quieter the likelyhood of detecting them at a range where you can use nuke warheads reduces... Sea Lance never entered US service because there was no point... its increase in range over ASROC and SUBROC was pointless because they could no longer detect Russian subs at the longer range.

I see, so basically not capable enough to find modern US subs as in the way US ASW air craft can find Russian subs.

Actually I would say Sea Dragon in its domestic version is totally comparable to anything the west has, the problem for both sides is that Russian subs have gotten quieter... to the point where active sonar has become a necessary tactic for surface vessels to detect subs at anything like a useful range on anything like a regular basis. AIP equipped subs will make this even more pronounced as they are quieter than nuke subs.

By Active Sonar what do you mean exactly ? Can Active Sonars be used in enemy littoral waters or near their waters ? What's the difference between active and passive sonars ? I got your point that due to Russian sub quietness ( reduction in noise levels) US ASW sonars can no longer detect subs at longer range but if they detect it at shorter ranges even then what's the disadvantage ? Still they can use depth charge or torpedoes both from their asw aircraft( chances are less as it'll be shot down) or their own carrier supporting submarines ( highly likely) .




That ghost unmanned ship using active sonar is again useless in such conflicts.

By Active Sonar what do you mean exactly ?

Like a bat in an empty cave where there is no noise... it squeaks and listens to the sound returning to their very large ears... by judging the time it takes for the sound to return it can gauge the distance to the walls of the cave.

WWII sonars were used to detect subs by sending a ping and listening for the return from objects in the water like submarines.

Can Active Sonars be used in enemy littoral waters or near their waters ? What's the difference between active and passive sonars ?

Active sonar can be used anywhere but most subs don't use it to avoid revealing their presence.

ASW groups of ships often actively ping in peace time to stir up enemy subs... a diesel electric that is running on electric that is not moving makes very little noise so to detect it you can use active sonar pings to detect its presence.

US ASW sonars can no longer detect subs at longer range but if they detect it at shorter ranges even then what's the disadvantage ?

If you can detect a noisy old WWII sub from 1,000km then your grid search pattern has 1,000km grids so searching the Atlantic is much easier... if you need to be within 1km of the target to detect it then obviously 1km square grids is going to have 1 million more flight lines in the horizontal and vertical... not to mention the time aspect as the time it takes to search a few widths of those sets of boxes an enemy sub could easily have moved out of the unsearched area into a searched area and be safe till you have looked everywhere and start looking where you have already looked... which would take years and not really be practical.

That ghost unmanned ship using active sonar is again useless in such conflicts.

What protects those ghost ships? They would be fairly easy to find targets if they are blazing away with active sonar all the time... even a passive homing torpedo could detect it at enormous range...

It is possible that the Tu-142M3 of Russian Navy aircraft used in Syria for reconnaissance of ground targets

50th Beriev aircraft overhauled. (antisubmarine aircraft Tu-142MK (hull number "51", registration number RF-34059, own the name "Yuri Malinin")



http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2071678.html

There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.

eehnie wrote:
There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.

Ministry of Defence has ordered Be-200 but not ASW version i think, only SAR

George1 wrote:

eehnie wrote:
There is some new about the delivery of the ordered Be-200? I find nothing.

Ministry of Defence has ordered Be-200 but not ASW version i think, only SAR

Not sure really about the first order, but some units with antisubmarine warfare should come according to the reports.

http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-orders-submarine-killer-be-200-amphibious-aircraft-production-2020-official-2015061

The Be-200 and the Be-A-40/42 were the aircrafts selected to replace the Be-12 and the Il-38.

First Il-38 flew 55 years ago September 28th.

http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/news/2016/0928/180537311/detail.shtml

New modernized Il-38N (7th)



In Zhukovsky filmed the final flight testing after upgrading anti-IL-38N ASW Russian Navy aircraft (tail number "11 Yellow", the name "Michael Verbitsky"). This is the seventh modernized Il-38N and the first modernized board contracted in 2015 for two cars.

JSC "Aviation Complex named after SV Ilyushin "in May 2015 concluded with the Russian Ministry of Defence contract to modernize a production next two combat aircraft IL-38 variant of the Il-38N, the term of the contract - in November 2017. Direct the work performed by him JSC "20th Aircraft Repair Plant" in Pushkin near St. Petersburg (repair) and Moscow JSC "Experimental Machine-Building Plant named after VM Myasishcheva" based in Zhukovsky (installation of a new search and sighting system "Novella -P-38 "produced by JSC" Leninist ").

The first upgraded aircraft under this contract (serial number 880 010 308, serial number 103-08) now passes tests in Zhukovsky, was built in 1968 and was part of the aviation of the Northern Fleet. After the modernization of the aircraft was named in honor of the maritime pilot Hero of the Soviet Union MK Verbitsky (1917 - 1944).

Previously, from 2012 to 2015, naval aviation of the Russian Navy received six modernized Il-38N (yellow board numbers "15", "19", "23", "24", "27" and "78"), five of which were modernized under a contract dated May 2012.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2241950.html

Eighth modernized Il-38N

In Zhukovsky spotters filmed the final flight testing after upgrading one anti-submarine aircraft Il-38N of Naval aviation of Russia. This is the eighth modernized Il-38N and the second board modernized under a contract in 2015 for two cars.

JSC "Aviation Complex named after SV Ilyushin" in May 2015 concluded with the Russian Ministry of Defence contract to modernize a production next two combat aircraft IL-38 variant of the Il-38N, the term of the contract - in November 2017. Direct the work performed by him JSC "20th Aircraft Repair Plant" in Pushkin near St. Petersburg (repair) and Moscow JSC "Experimental Machine-Building Plant named after VM Myasishcheva" based in Zhukovsky (installation of a new search and sighting system "Novella P-38").

The first on this contract was upgraded aircraft with serial number 880010308 (serial number 103-08), received hull number "11 Yellow", registration number RF-75 308 and the name "Michael Verbitsky".

The second and last modernized under this contract aircraft with serial number 081011006 (serial number 110-06), passing modernization tests in Zhukovsky now, was built as an IL-38 in 1971 and previously flew as part of the Northern Fleet aviation, from the end of the 1990s was a member of 444th Center deployment and retraining flight personnel of the air Force and air Defence Russian Navy Island (Pskov region), and since 2010 - in the newly formed 859th Center deployment and training of flight crews of Russian Navy aviation in Yeisk.

Previously, from 2012 to 2015, naval aviation of the Russian Navy received six modernized Il-38N (yellow board numbers "15", "19", "23", "24", "27" and "78"), five of which were modernized under a contract dated May 2012.



http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2341327.html

Zhukovsky (Moscow reg.), January 31 - RIA Novosti. The modernization program of 30 anti-IL-38 to the level of IL-38N will be executed to 2025, he told reporters on Tuesday the commander of the naval aviation of the Russian Navy, Major General Igor Kozhin.

In Zhukovsky near Moscow on Tuesday a solemn ceremony of awarding the modernized anti-aircraft Il-38N named Colonel-General Viktor Pavlovich Potapov - Commander of the Navy aircraft in 1988-1994.

"The modernization program will last until 2025, so the plan to modernize all these terms to perform" - Kozhin said, answering the question of what date will upgrade all 30 Il-38 aircraft.

He added that the Il-38N, put into service in Zhukovsky near Moscow will be transferred to ground testing complex naval aviation in Yeisk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2G4xvodNkE

Just realized that there's a maritime patrol variant of the Be-200 called the Be-220, this variant looks very comparable to the P-8 Poseidon, would be very useful for countries like Vietnam.

By no means comparable. P-8 has bigger capacity engines and 4 times longer range than Be-200 variant. Be A-42 Albatros could be closer to P-8. A Tu-204 modification however could be the better comparable

George1 wrote:By no means comparable. P-8 has bigger capacity engines and 4 times longer range than Be-200 variant. Be A-42 Albatros could be closer to P-8. A Tu-204 modification however could be the better comparable

"4 time longer range"??...... don't get Ferry Range mixed up with Combat Radius, although this is assuming the "range" of the Be is range with payload, that said, the P-8 still has more than double the Ferry range.

There were mentions that 4 Albotroses were ordered for patrol purposes, but i have heard nothing more.

As for the Tu-204, the only thing i can see is a revamped Tu-214R.
There is also the MS-21 and the SuperJet-100 (if i am reading these specs right), although the Tupolev will probly take less time to get to service.