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    PAK FA, T-50: News #1

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    Austin


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    Post  Austin Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:43 am

    None So far.....although i love the name Firefox
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:36 am

    Austin wrote:None So far.....although i love the name Firefox

    oh .. as for me ..i would love if NATO make an exception and called it "Stealthflanker" instead. Laughing
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:40 am

    Would it be evil to suggest they call it GarryB?

    Naming conventions mean it will be a two syllable name (reflecting jet propulsion) starting with the letter F (reflecting the fact that it is a fighter) and it needs to sound distinctly different from other codenames to prevent errors over poor quality radio channels.

    So with there being a Fishbed already for example, they could not call it Flashbed because it sounds very similar and can be confusing over radio with the different accents of NATO.

    Flanker, Fullback, ...how about Firstfive... sorry... that is a Rugby joke.
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    Post  George1 Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:12 am

    What about Firestarter?
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:08 am

    What about Firestarter?

    Too many syllables...


    Previous fighter designations include Firebar, Foxhound, Fulcrum, Flanker, Fishbed, Foxbat, Flogger, Flagon, Fishpot, Fiddler and of course fighter bombers/strike aircraft have had F names as well like Fitter, Fencer, Frogfoot
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    Post  George1 Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:59 pm

    Firewind also
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:31 pm

    Firewind meets the criteria... and wouldn't be bad.

    Certainly distinctive over radio communications.
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    Post  Lycz3 Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:48 pm

    Are Nato codes still given anyway ? I think there were not any new ones in this decade.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:21 am

    Fullback for Su-34 is a new one.

    I think the Yak-130 Mitten is new too. (Note being a trainer aircraft the Yak does not get an F code, but an M code for miscellaneous like the Midas tanker version of the Candid transport.

    I believe there are also names like Firkin and Flatpack for the MFI contestant aircraft.

    They are not really NATO codes as they are determined by the Air Standards Coordinating Committee... which from memory even includes New Zealand... Smile

    The ASCC names I assume will continue to be used as the Russian names for their aircraft are not widely known and are not generally official names, though I think that recently they have had a name change to ASIC, for Air and Space Interoperability Council or something.
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    Post  Austin Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:56 am

    Sukhoi T-50 / PAK FA - official patent analysis
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:49 am

    But what do those ex-servicemen receive as benefits? A retiree in the US military gets 50% of his base pay for life, medical care, and a number of other benefits. Combat veterans (somehow I managed to work into that category) get medical care regardless of time in service. Then there's education benefits like the GI Bill, etc. It's a lot of dollars.

    Did you vote for Obama SOC?

    Obama’s new Pentagon strategy: strip benefits and buy more weapons

    Pensions and health care plans for US troops will be drastically reduced under a new budget presented by US President Barack Obama on Thursday. Not all aspects of the DoD will be annihilated, however.

    The DoD will ditch medical benefits for troops but continue to spend on its expensive arsenal of doom.

    President Obama joined Defense Secretary Leon Panetta from the Pentagon early Thursday in a rare public address from the two to talk changes made to the ledger in regards to the operation of the US military. As the US begins to scale back on foreign operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Obama administration is finding less of a need for the servicemen and women that have been on the battlefronts for the last decade. In order to cut costs, the new budget will thus eliminate positions from the armed forces and initiate changes to the pension and health care plans for military vets.

    Those changes will help balance the Defense Department’s budget as the Pentagon unveils that it will continue to invest billions in cutting edge weaponry and cyberspace capabilities.

    Citing the end of the war in Iraq and a drawdown of troops in Afghanistan, the president said Thursday that the US must strategize on how to successfully prepare for future conflicts. In order to do such, said Obama, boots on the ground will be needed less and less. Instead, the US will rely more heavily on an agile, dispersed arsenal of troops and increased surveillance space age weaponry presence.

    President Obama said that the move to scale back personnel comes after decimating al-Qaeda’s leadership, progressing in Afghanistan and a successful mission to protect the Libyan people and assist in the overthrowing of the Gaddafi regime. Despite these victories, however, America must be prepared for future action elsewhere in the world.

    “Yes, the tide of war is receding,” said Obama, but “what kind of military will we need long after the wars of the last decade are over?”

    “Yes, our military will be leaner, but the world must know that the United States will maintain its military superiority,” he said.

    Upon addressing the group himself, Defense Secretary Panetta announced that that superiority will come way of relying less on American citizens during wartime and more on reckless killing machines, specifically unmanned aircraft.

    “As we reduce the overall defense budget, we will protect and in some cases increase our investments in special operation forces in new technologies, like . . . unmanned systems, in space and in particular in cyberspace,” said Panetta.

    The Pentagon’s new agenda isn’t all slap-dash pension changes and billion dollar drone investments, though. Panetta also insisted that, despite rumors that the US will make changes to its doctrine to being capable of fighting multiple wars to concentrating on just one conflict, the secretary said that America will still be on the ready to fight multiple enemies at any single moment. Panetta revealed that the new plan will place American troops in diverse locals internationally so that the military could be ready to deploy on any country at any time.

    “As we move towards this new joint force, we are also rebalancing our global posture and presence,” said Panetta. Specifically, “the rise of new powers across Asia and the dramatic changes” in the Middle East are of concern and will warrant the mobilization of American troops to be ready on the borders of North Korea and perhaps Iran. Such action will come during a time of “a very serious deficit and debt problem here at home,” acknowledged the secretary, however, who said that the economic problem poised on America was “a national security risk.”

    “I do not believe that we have to choose between our national security and fiscal responsibility,” said Panetta.

    “We are not confronting, obviously, the threats of the past. We are confronting the threats of the twenty-first century. And that demands greater flexibility to shift and deploy forces, to be able to fight and defeat any enemy, anywhere,” said Panetta. “How we defeat the enemy may very well vary across conflicts, but make no mistake, we will have the capability to confront and defeat more than one adversary at a time.

    “As a global force, our military will never be doing only one thing,” added Panetta.

    Despite this additional deployment and development of additional fronts and bases, also on the agenda, are serious blows to the pensions of veterans.

    “We will continue aggressive efforts to weed out waste, reduce overhead, to reform business practices [and] to consolidate our duplicative operations,” said Panetta. Under the Modernizing the Military Retirement System proposal presented to the Pentagon in August, veterans who have served less than 20 years will see drastic changes to how the government provides for them after their time of service.

    “We need to have a responsible conversation about how we are going to prepare ourselves for the future,” Panetta said earlier in the year. Under current military procedure, US vets stand to receive a retirement income of half of their salary after completing 20 years of service in the armed forces. The Modernizing the Military Retirement System, however, would put in place a 401k-style plan that would offer government contributions once vets reach regular retirement age.

    Panetta only alluded at the changes to veterans’ benefit packages Thursday morning, saying that the final paperwork will be available later this month. He did, however, momentarily address the Defense Department staff that stands to be affected, saying, “I know you have been watching the budget debates here in Washington.”

    “I have no higher responsibility than fighting to protect you and your families, and just as you have fought and bled to protect our country, I commit to you that I will fight for you and for your families,” plead Panetta, only to immediately add, “There is no doubt that the fiscal situation that this country faces is difficult and in many ways we are at a crisis point.”

    The president himself only offered that the administration will “keep working to give our veterans the care” that they deserve, but failed to specifically outline the changes.

    Speaking of flexibility and necessity of getting rid of “Cold War-era” weapons nevertheless didn’t keep the Pentagon from recently investing in some astonishingly expensive and arguably antiquated weaponry. The move to make shifts in the budget come only days after it was revealed that the US will soon have in its arsenal the USS Gerald R Ford aircraft carrier, which will not only serve as the world’s most expensive battleship ever created — but the most expensive weapon as well at a price tag of $11.5 billion for the single ship. As RT reported in August, the US has also been in plans to secure $23 billion in space age drone aircraft planes as well.

    Before ending his statement, Panetta succinctly outlined the plan by putting forthspecific changes: the diminishing of the US joint forces; the mobilization of troops specifically in the Middle East and Pacific; increased relationships with allies and strengthening the nation’s ability to strike quickly and confidently.

    Panetta said that there is “some level of additional but acceptable risk in the budget plan,” and added that the administration was not left with easy choices in drafting it.

    Obama’s address from the Pentagon’s briefing room Thursday morning marked the first time that any commander-in-chief crossed the Potomac to speak from the Defense Department’s headquarters. Upon closing his remarks and handing the room over to Leon Panetta, Obama said that the latest effort from the DoD “reflects the guidance” that he “personally gave” throughout the process of drafting the budget.

    source: http://rt.com/usa/news/obama-panetta-pentagon-strategy-251/
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    Post  SOC Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:Did you vote for Obama SOC?

    No, although I was well aware I was picking the lesser of two evils.

    “We need to have a responsible conversation about how we are going to prepare ourselves for the future,” Panetta said earlier in the year. Under current military procedure, US vets stand to receive a retirement income of half of their salary after completing 20 years of service in the armed forces. The Modernizing the Military Retirement System, however, would put in place a 401k-style plan that would offer government contributions once vets reach regular retirement age.

    If they screw around with that, they're going to have massive enlistment and retention problems.


    Last edited by SOC on Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Austin Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:44 pm

    Missile of 5th Gen will be ready on Time:

    Interview with CEO of Tactical Missile Corporation

    http://ria.ru/interview/20120131/552913593.html
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    Post  Austin Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:06 pm

    Russian Navy and Air Force to get new missiles
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    Post  Russian Patriot Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:02 pm

    Russia to Field Air-Launched Missiles for T-50 by 2014

    RIA Novosti

    11:31 31/01/2012 MOSCOW, January 31 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will complete development of advanced tactical air-launched missile systems for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter within the next two years, the head of the Tactical Missiles Corporation (KTRV), Boris Obnosov, told RIA Novosti.

    “The development of Kh-35UE (AS-20 Kayak), Kh-38ME, Kh-58UShKE (AS-11 Kilter), and RVV-MD (AA-11 Archer) class missiles will be completed in 2012-2013,” Obnosov said, adding the missiles were currently being tested.

    By the time the T-50 fighter enters service with the Russian Air Force in 2014, its missile systems will be fully operational, Obnosov said.

    Some of the missiles intended for the fighters – such as Kh-31PD (AS-17 Mod 2) class missiles – have already been tested using Sukhoi Su-34 (Fullback) fourth-generation strike aircraft and put into serial production, he added.

    According to KTRV, the Kh-35UE tactical anti-ship missile has a maximum range of 260 kilometers; the supersonic Kh-31PD anti-radiation missile for use against air defense systems, can fly up to 250 kilometers; the Kh-58UShKE missile, designed to destroy pulse radars, can hit targets within 245 kilometers, and the short-range RVV-MD air-to-air missile has a maximum range of 40 kilometers.

    The T-50, developed under the PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) program by the Sukhoi OKB, is Russia's first new major warplane designed since the fall of the Soviet Union. The jet made its maiden flight in January 2011 and two prototypes have since been undergoing flight tests.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120131-rianovosti04.htm
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    Post  George1 Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:41 pm

    I think work on LMFS must start now
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    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:57 pm

    “The development of Kh-35UE (AS-20 Kayak), Kh-38ME, Kh-58UShKE (AS-11 Kilter), and RVV-MD (AA-11 Archer) class missiles will be completed in 2012-2013,” Obnosov said, adding the missiles were currently being tested.

    Interesting... the fact that they want to use the RVV-MD in the T-50 suggests it might have a datalink and lock on after launch capability... either that or it has a special launch structure that pushes it out of the weapon bay to allow the seeker to get a lock before launch.

    I think work on LMFS must start now

    I am pretty sure they have a design basis already, but as technologies get cheaper and new technologies and new solutions are developed I think waiting a little would be a good move.

    Lets see what experience the US and the west has with the F-35 and learn from these experiences so they don't make the same mistakes.

    The Russians are in a much different position from most of the west as the Mig-35 and Su-35 are still in production or near it and are still competitive aircraft. The F-15 and F-16 are of course still competitive but the money spent on F-35 already is putting pressure on getting rid of the old planes.

    Traditionally with fighter aircraft there has been a recent trend for a mix of large and small... high and low fighter, with a big heavy expensive but capable fighter and a smaller lighter cheaper and more versatile fighter bomber.

    With the cost of Stealth perhaps this might change and instead of big and small it might be big and big, with a difference in price and weapon capacity.

    A big powerful expensive all seeing all killing super fighter, with another big fighter that is not so all seeing, is much cheaper to buy and operate but not so stealthy, but able to carry a very large payload.

    The big expensive plane can operate alone almost anywhere using its speed and stealth and advanced sensors to kill and not be seen like a sniper, while the big cheaper plane carrys lots of ammo and weapons and is stealthy but not super stealthy.

    Who knows?
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    Post  Aegean Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:37 pm


    I think with the release of the patent documents a few things can be deduced.


    First, any speculation about the final shape of the T-50 can be put to rest. The T-50 was intended to look exactly like it looks now.

    i.e. No squared upper or lower rear nacelles, and no square-ish exhausts.

    The various air intakes on the sides of the upper nacelles are to stay

    The engine nacelles indeed have a curvature, but from the plans, it seems the lower bit of the compressor is indeed visible.

    There is no information on the number of missiles carried in the weapon bays. But it is unlikely that more than 4 missiles will be carried.

    There seems to be no intend to cover a 360° with IR optical sensors.

    There is no intent to have a frameless canopy.

    I am not a moaner, and I have read the ITAE papers. I do however believe that contemporary designs should all follow a trend.

    The T-50 seems to ignore some of them. The frameless canopy for example. I have sat in the cockpit of an F-16 and the field of view is unparalelled. Having a thick frame in the 21st century on a fighter that is made to be a hunter killer, restricts the field of view, I don't care if it adds to the RCS or not.

    Also the rear view seems to be restricted.

    I have never claimed the T-50 should be an F-22 copy, but the F-22 works.

    Greek F-16s in the Red Flag came up against at least one F-22 and the JHMS system combined with the IRIS-T missile could not get a lock on the rear of the F-22! The damn nozzles work. I am not suggesting that the T-50 should have some, but there is no information on how the T-50 will have a reduced heat signature.

    Also structurally the various covers and openings on the plane have no sawtooth edges. I know it is early in the development, but neither are they shown in the patent which makes me think about it.









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    Post  TR1 Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:40 pm

    I am not sure how you came to those conclusions. This one patent release does little to prove what the final product will look like.

    It is open secret on Russian forums that Sukhoi and engine manufacturers are working on definitive engine and a nozzle for it. Wether the entire instalation will be changed to squarish looking is open for question, but the top uncovered parts will certainly be treated. This isn't rocket science, imbedding engines in body isn't hard.
    The fact that there will be no drastic changes to overall aerodynamic configuration justs hows it has no big issues like Su-27 did. That is a good thing.

    Internal bays will have at least 6 missiles, don;'t forget about side bays. Further, what is the point of more than 4 long range missiles, if they are big like RVV-BD? No way to fit more than 4 of them in there, and they would give big advantage over other 5th gen fighter BVR weapons. Plus, who is to say they will not integrate 6 pylons into the main bays, certainly by size 3 RVV-SD sized missiles can fit into each bay. Given the VVS requirement for heavy AAM load on the Su-27, I think they will get what they want.

    The fan face is intended to be covered by blocker, this is not news at this point.

    At MAKS and through various statements by Pogosyan, it is very evident the aircraft will have a 360 optical system, both for missile tracking and for defensive means. Will it be exactly like DAS? Who knows, but the latter isn't the kind of magic LM makes it out to be.

    Canopy is another thing that Sukhoi has been open about. They don't feel a completely frameless canopy is needed. Look at F-35, it has frame on the inside. Y-23 as well, and that was rated as more stealth than F-22. Further, what kind of requirements are there for PAK-FA cockpit, as compared to F-16? We don't know, but it certainly will be operating at more extreme speeds and altitudes than F-16.

    Rear view is a fairly irrelivant thing IMO. Take a look at current deigns. Having a good rear view is an illusion, since the ejection seat+ helmet prevents pilot from actually looking all the way around, especially during combat. The PAK-FA seems to accomodate good enough angles for rear quadrant vision with this kept in mind. Also, the trade off is superb front view. Let's give Sukhoi some credit here, they work with the VVS, and the canopy layout is a result of requirements and tradeoffs. If Sukhoi wanted rear view, they could have replicated what the Su-27 achieved with its bubble canopy. PAK-FA will almost certainly have better visibility in the front and below the aircraft, and the rear vision tradeoff also has implications on RCS and construction (canopy being embeded rather than bubble). Take a look at F-35, it is similar in this regard.

    In regards to RCS detail on structure, come onnn man, there was no attempt at this at all (also, there ARE sawtooth edges and panel angling, take another look, especially at newer birds). So far it has been about aerodynamics, structure, and system integration. Don't worry, it will come. A bunch of zigzags, a stealth plane, do not make.
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    Post  Viktor Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:04 pm

    I was hoping for PAK-FA being able to carry 8 R-77 successors.

    4 just sounds to low.
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    Post  TR1 Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:11 pm

    The bays are big enough for 6, no problem. However, we need to see what the size of the next-gen A2A weapons for the PAK-FA even is.
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    Post  Viktor Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:12 pm

    TR1 wrote:The bays are big enough for 6, no problem. However, we need to see what the size of the next-gen A2A weapons for the PAK-FA even is.

    Russians are excellent engineers I do hope they will come up with the way to

    squeeze 8 missiles in those bays + 2 short ranged.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:11 am

    The RVV-SD has very slim long strakes and the rear grid fins fold forward.

    in fact the standard weapon pylon for the RVV-SD has a pneumatic arm which, on launch, throws the missile down and out of a weapons bay... even on aircraft that don't have weapon bays like the Mig-29 and Su-27/35.

    With the depth of the bay designed for air to ground weapons I would think it would be plausible for 8 missiles to be carried on four side by side pylons of staggered length.

    I am sure the final look of the PAK FA will not be the same as the current prototypes, but it will be close... or it would be pointless to make the current prototypes.

    The joint FFGA might change a bit with requirements leading to changes... being largely paid for too.
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    Post  Austin Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:36 am

    Russia to Increase Number of 5G Fighters in Test Flights

    The number of Russia's Sukhoi T-50 5th generation fighters involved in test flights will be increased to 14 from three by 2015, Russian Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin told RIA Novosti on Monday.

    “There are three fighters already in tests, another three are expected to be tested in the nearest future. The entire number of aircraft planned for test flights is 14,” Zelin said.

    The T-50, developed under the program PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) at the Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, made its first public appearance at the MAKS-2011 air show near Moscow on August 17, 2011.

    The fighter, which is being developed in partnership with India, made its maiden flight in the Russian Far East in early 2010.

    Zelin also said that Russia’s T-50 outstripped its U.S. and Chinese analogues.

    “After a comparative analysis of the fighter’s characteristics with the U.S. F-22 Raptor and Chinese J-20 stealth aircraft, we can conclude that PAK FA exceeds the foreign analogues in maximum speed, flight range, maximum takeoff weight and the maximum overload value,” Zelin added.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20120213/564442288.html

    General added that THE PAK FA possesses the comparable with the foreign analogs overall sizes and mass, but in this case " it has substantially smaller value of takeoff and landing]".

    "In addition to the characteristics of airborne equipment PAK FA is better than their foreign counterparts," - says Zelin.
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    Post  Viktor Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:36 pm

    Well here is something that could give new life to LMFS.


    Russia Must Build Two Variants of 5G Fighter - Rogozin

    Russian aircraft manufacturers must develop at least two competitive prototypes of a fifth-generation fighter jet, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Thursday.
    “Two variants of the future fighter jet must be developed to encourage competition,” Rogozin said at a meeting with Russian lawmakers.
    According to the Russian Defense Ministry, the future fighter must possess all technical characteristics of a fifth-generation fighter, including elements of stealth technology, supersonic cruising speed, highly-integrated avionics, electronics and fire-control systems.
    The existing T-50 prototype, developed under the program PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) at the Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, made its maiden flight in Russia’s Far East in January 2010 and made its first public appearance at the MAKS-2011 air show near Moscow on August 17, 2011.
    There are currently three fifth-generation T-50 fighters in tests, and a total number of 14 aircraft is planned for test flights by 2015.
    The T-50 is expected to enter service in 2016 and gradually replace MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker fighter jets in the Russian Air Force.

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      Current date/time is Fri Nov 22, 2024 3:04 pm