PAK FA, T-50: News #1

Moscow continues to pursue a Sukhoi-based fifth-generation fighter. After five years of effort, Russia finally found an international partner for the development project. In 2007 India entered an agreement to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter based on the Sukhoi.
Russian fifth-generation fighter may stay on paper for a longer time. This would give Washington sufficient time to launch mass production of F-35s, deploy them on American bases and fulfill orders from international customers such as Britain, the Netherlands and Israel.

milliirthomas wrote:Moscow continues to pursue a Sukhoi-based fifth-generation fighter. After five years of effort, Russia finally found an international partner for the development project. In 2007 India entered an agreement to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter based on the Sukhoi.

India hasn't finalised the agreement yet. They are still trying to get concessions on their workshare and so far haven't paid a dime.

Like, need, afford.

Always different things.

Look at the F-22. Years ago they were going to get 500+ of these things = like.
The cold war ended so they stopped at less than 200. Now there are calls for more, but the government doesn't seem to think they can afford any more... which makes sense because F-22s will not be much use against IEDs.
The whole concept of a lighter cheaper 5th gen fighter is sound, the US has adopted it themselves, though they have made it cheaper by fooling a world wide coalition to contribute billions and billions of dollars into the development of an aircraft the US has complete control of. So it is over priced, over weight, and delayed, thanks to marvellous US management techniques...

GarryB wrote:There is talk that the Mig design bureau has a light 5th gen fighter in development to fit in the role of smaller lighter and cheaper fighter that still has 5th gen qualities that should give it superiority over 4 and 4+ and 4++ gen fighters.
The guy in charge of UAC has mentioned it in interviews a while back but it seems the program is on hold till the T-50 gets sorted. It sounds like they didn't want to detract from the main program and that once the T-50 is ready that this cheaper smaller fighter will be used for numbers and to fill gaps.
Of course this was at a time when the T-50 was going to be Flanker sized or bigger, which is certainly isn't.
Perhaps Sukhoi has scaled down the aircraft to reduce operational costs to get more orders.
Su-35S and Mig-35s will probably operate for some time to come.

Yeah, I heard this also and Yakovlev supposedly being involved in the development also. We'll definitely see a light 5th gen fighter. The question is just when.

T-50 completes early flight and bench tests

By: David Donald
July 19, 2010
Military Aircraft

Sukhoi has completed its preliminary flight and bench trials program for the T-50 PAK-FA fighter. Three airframes were built for the initial campaign, comprising one static aircraft (T-50-0), one flying prototype (T-50-1) and an avionics testbed (T-50-2). A display flight by T-50-1 on June 17 in front of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin marked the 16th time the aircraft had flown.

Russia has a stated requirement for up to 420 PAK-FA aircraft, which may become the Su-50 in service. This number would equip 10 air regiments, each with 36 frontline aircraft and six reserves. However, it is likely that this total will not be reached. India, meanwhile, has a requirement for 250 of what it calls the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

India has yet to join the T-50 program, but it has stated that it intends to do so and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) will likely be given development work in the navigation, mission computer and other systems. FGFA is envisioned as a two-seater, but reports suggest that India could acquire single-seat T-50s pending development of the full FGFA configuration.

The T-50-1 was completed in the KnAAPO works at Dzemgi airfield near Komsomolsk-na-Amur. The first taxi tests were performed last December and high-speed tests were conducted in late January in preparation for the first flight. The maiden 47-minute sortie was flown on January 29 with Sergey Bogdan at the controls.

The aircraft flew again in early February to compete initial basic airworthiness and systems tests before being disassembled for transport to Moscow. On April 8 an Antonov An-124 Ruslan carried it to the Gromov Flight Research Institute at Zhukovsky, together with flight support equipment. The aircraft flew again from its new home on April 29.

Further T-50s will be constructed to support the flight test program, which Putin announced would encompass more than 2,000 flights. Initial production is scheduled to begin at KnAAPO in 2015, with limited service-entry to take place that year as well.

T-50 Technology
Sukhoi’s T-50 embodies a high degree of new technology and is intended to provide a “fifth-generation” capability in an aircraft that is considerably cheaper to produce than the Lockheed Martin F-22, its closest rival. Low observability in the forward hemisphere is a key driver in the T-50 design, which, in planform at least, resembles that of the F-22. The forward areas feature faceting (smooth, polished surfaces) and the design incorporates advanced radar-absorbent materials and coatings. The intake trunks are of serpentine shape, but whether they completely shield the engine compressor face and whether they incorporate some form of radar blocker has been the subject of considerable debate.

The engines themselves are the NPO Saturn 117, derived from the 117S intended for the Su-35BM. The first of these engines flew in the left-hand bay of the T-10M-10 (an Su-35 testbed) on January 21 this year, shortly before the T-50’s first flight. The engines incorporate 16-degree all-axis thrust vectoring, which combined with the relaxed stability and fly-by-wire controls confers outstanding maneuverability on the T-50. It is widely accepted that the T-50 will not match the Lockheed Martin F-22 fighter in terms of all-aspect stealthiness, but it is expected to be more agile. NPO Saturn and MMPP Salyut are working together on a definitive engine for the T-50, in the 16- to 16.5-metric-ton thrust class (that is, up to 36,375 pounds thrust).

An innovative feature of the T-50 is its SH121 radar complex from NIIP Tikhomirov. This comprises the N050 main array in the nose, with more than 1,500 transmit/receive modules, plus two side-facing X-band arrays in the lower forward fuselage sides. Conformal L-band arrays are mounted in the leading-edge root extensions. T-50-1 does not have radar fitted, but it does have a dummy infrared search-and-track turret installed. In service this is expected to be a development of the OLS-35 developed for the Su-35BM.

In terms of avionics, the T-50 represents a major advance for a Russian fighter and it has been designed to take full advantage of datalink and sensor-fusion technology. In the cockpit the pilot has two very large multifunction displays mounted side-by-side, with an upfront controller for a wide-angle head-up display. Control is by a center stick that incorporates advanced HOTAS controls. The pilot will have a helmet-mounted sighting system, perhaps based on the ZSh-10.

In its air-to-air role, the T-50 will have a wide range of weapons available, from internal 30-mm cannon to 400-km missiles. The aircraft’s huge internal bays can accommodate up to eight of the current Vympel R-77 active-radar missiles, but there are several developments under way to provide the PAK-FA with even more capable weapons.

Vympel is working on the Izdeliye 180/K-77M, a derivative of the R-77 with a double-pulse engine, new seeker and traditional tailfins in place of the R-77’s “chip-slicer” lattice fins. The Izdeliye 180PB/K-77ME is an air-breathing ramjet version similar in concept to the Meteor, but it appears that the solid-propellant version–roughly equivalent to the AIM-120D AMRAAM–offers greater potential in a shorter time.

The PAK-FA is also expected to carry a class of weapon unique to Russia–
a very long range air-to-air missile (VLRAAM), with a range of around 400 kilometers. Two designs are in development for the T-50 application: Vympel’s Izdeliye 810 and Novator’s Izdeliye 172/K-100. The T-50 will also carry short-range weapons.

A range of air-to-ground weapons is also intended for the T-50, including a new generation of anti-radiation missiles such as the Kh-36 and Kh-58Ush, and a variety of laser- and EO-guided bombs and missiles. Many of them can be carried internally, but the T-50 also has four underwing hardpoints for the attachment of external pylons for operations when stealth is not an overriding factor. The “tunnel” between the engine trunks also provides the space to carry extremely large weapons, such as long-range anti-ship missiles.

http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/t-50-completes-early-flight-and-bench-tests-25453/

Russian Air Force to get 10 fifth-generation fighters by 2015

RIA Novosti

18:20 19/07/2010

FARNBOROUGH, July 19 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Defense Ministry will buy the first 10 fifth-generation fighters between 2013 and 2015 and then another 60 after 2016, a senior military official said on Monday.

Deputy Defense Minister for Arms Procurements Vladimir Popovkin said the first fighters will be purchased in 2013, while in 2015 the Air Force will start test flying them.

He did not explain what will happen between 2013 and 2015.

"We will start purchasing this fighter in series in 2016 and a total of 60 fighters will be bought under the state [arms procurement] program," Popovkin said.

Air Force chief Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said last week the first batch of new fighters would be provided with older, "non-fifth" generation engines.

In mid-June, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin observed the 16th test flight of a prototype fighter.

The prime minister said 30 billion rubles (around $1 billion) had already been spent on the project and another 30 billion would be required to complete it, after which the engine, weaponry and other components would be upgraded.

He said the fighter would have a service life of 30-35 years if modernization and upgrades are factored in, and would be around three times cheaper than its foreign analogs.

Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials have said the stealth fighter jet with a range of up to 5,500 km should enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

The PAK FA is to be armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100719-rianovosti02.htm

Deputy Defense Minister for Arms Procurements Vladimir Popovkin said the first fighters will be purchased in 2013, while in 2015 the Air Force will start test flying them.

He did not explain what will happen between 2013 and 2015.

I have read in another article that they have plans for several thousand test flights for the design between now and 2015 and that 10 fighters would be produced by 2013 so that that number of test flights could be achieved. That would explain what the aircraft would be doing between 2013 and 2015.

Hey Vladimir how many types of weapons will be able to carry?

I read 10 internal and 4 external

This AW&ST has info on PAK-FA and Russian Chopper Program

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416132911&e=true

Interesting news. I hope PAK-FA will be able to carry long range AAM internally. That would be nice.

We must hold our breath for 5 more years and hoped everything will go well and we will see it operationally by 2016.

Here is a nice book to look at Soviet Fifth Gen Fighter Project Mig-1.44 and S-37 Berkut

RedStar - Sukhoi S-37 and Mikoyan MFI - Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter Demonstrators

Thanks.

Best analysis ever done b/w PAKFA & F22

Thats the cut and paste Pak Def site they just rip off stuff and post it there , the worst ref you can give

Austin wrote:Thats the cut and paste Pak Def site they just rip off stuff and post it there , the worst ref you can give

Respected sir,
I am afraid my intention never was to annoy you!!
Pakistan Def site do always mention source & thus take no credit for someones else work.
regards

Well then its better to put the original source , unless those analysis are from Pak Def then it makes sense to quote them

India, Russia to ink Gen-5 fighter pact

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th Sept 10

Late on Thursday evening, in a triumph for the Russia-India defence relationship, the two countries signed off on a joint venture to co-develop a 15-20 tonne payload, 2500-kilometre range Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA), which will replace the Indian Air Force’s venerable AN-32 at the end of the next decade. But this path breaking US $600 million co-development of the MTA is likely to be dwarfed soon, when India and Russia each pledge US $6 billion to co-develop the world’s premier fighter, a step ahead of the US Air Force’s F-22 Raptor, which currently rules the skies.

Senior MoD sources have confirmed to Business Standard that years of tortuous negotiations have been successfully concluded in time for Russian President Dimitry Medvedev’s visit to India this December. Russian and Indian negotiators have finalised the Preliminary Design Contract (PDC), a key document that will allow designers from both sides to actually begin work on the FGFA.

“The negotiators have done their job, and the Cabinet Committee for Security (CCS) will consider the PDC, probably this month”, says the MoD official. “If the CCS gives the green signal, as is likely, the contract will be signed during Medvedev’s visit.”

HAL Chairman, Ashok Nayak, had indicated to Business Standard, on a recent visit to HAL, Bangalore, that the deal was done. “It is in the system for approval”, said Nayak. “The respective work shares have been agreed to by both sides and once we sign the Preliminary Design Contract, we will finish the design in about 18 months. Developing and building the FGFA could take 8-10 years and each side will pay US $6 billion as its share.”

The Russian and Indian Air Forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of US $100 million per fighter. That adds up to US $25 billion for 250 fighters, over and above the development cost.

These astronomical figures have led Russia into co-development with India. The inescapability of cost sharing was reinforced last year, when the Pentagon was forced to shut down its F-22 Raptor programme. Since the technologies in the F-22 were deemed crucial to America’s technology lead, the fighter was developed and built entirely within the US. As a result, its prohibitive cost --- US $340 million per fighter --- forced the Pentagon to cap the programme at 187 fighters, just half of what it planned to buy in 2006.

“If the United States could not afford to go it alone on a fifth generation fighter, Russia clearly cannot”, points out a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer. “There was no choice but to co-opt India as a partner.”

Russia initially offered India partnership in the FGFA programme about 7-8 years ago but there was little clarity then on crucial issues like work share, i.e. what systems and components each side would develop. From 2005-07, India’s growing closeness with the US slowed down the FGFA project. Progress received a boost from the Russia-India Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) in November 07. But HAL sources recount that, even after the IGA, Russian negotiators’ concern about sharing top-secret technologies meant that a green signal from Moscow was needed for every step of the negotiation.

“This is the first time that Russia is co-developing a cutting-edge military platform with another country. Therefore, they were unclear about how to share work in a top-secret project like this”, says a senior HAL official. “Before each step, the Russian officials wanted clearances from the highest level in Moscow. Those Presidential Decrees, as they call them, took their own time.”

Consequently, says the HAL Chairman, it has taken almost three years from the IGA to negotiate a General Contract and a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA). In March 2010, a “Tactical Technical Assignment” was signed, in which the work shares were agreed.

Meanwhile, Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau has built a basic fifth generation fighter, which Russia terms the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally Prospective Aircraft Complex of Frontline Aviation). A prototype, tailored to Russian Air Force requirements, made its first flight in January 2010.

India’s work share, according to HAL officials, will amount to about 30% of the overall design effort. This will centre on composite components and high-end electronics like the mission computer, the avionics, cockpit displays and the electronic warfare systems for the FGFA. Additionally, India will have to redesign the single-seat PAK-FA into the two-seater fighter that the IAF prefers. Like in the Sukhoi-30MKI, the IAF prefers one pilot flying and the other handling the sensors, networks and weaponry.

Stealthy Robots Stalk The T-50
September 14, 2010: The Russian answer to the American F-22, the T-50, first flew earlier this year, and has made 18 flights so far this year. The T-50 is a prototype, and the Russians are still doing a lot of tinkering. While the T-50 is the stealthiest aircraft the Russians have, it is not nearly as stealthy as the F-22, or even the F-35 or B-2. The Russians are apparently going to emphasize maneuverability instead of stealth. But they are having problems perfecting the engines for the T-50, and the defensive electronics. This puts the T-50 at a big disadvantage against the F-22 or F-35, which try to detect enemy aircraft at long distance, without being spotted, and then fire a radar guided missile (like AMRAAM).

The T-50 is not an entirely new design, like the F-22. The T-50 was developed from the Su-27, which it is to eventually replace. As part of this process, another development aircraft, the Su-35, was created. This aircraft first flew two years ago. The Su-35 contains a lot of the technologies that are going into the T-50. Three years ago the Russian Air Force showed off the first of two flyable prototypes of the Su-35. Less than four years ago Russia announced its long promised Su-35 fighter was back in development again. The Su-35 is an enhanced Su-30 (itself a development of the Cold War era Su-27), and has been in development for over a decade. At one point, it was called the Su-37, but the name was changed back to Su-35. A dozen or more Su-35 prototypes have been built, and apparently no two are identical. This is typical for Russian aircraft development. They prefer to produce many incremental improvements, rather than make a huge jump to a very different new model. Thus you can trace an evolution from the Su-27 to the T-50.

The Russians want to sell their "Fifth Generation Fighter" (the T-50, which they admit is not true 5th Gen) to China, India and other foreign customers. There is already a deal for India to develop its own version of the T-50, while contributing some technologies (like lightweight materials) to the basic design. The Indians have announced that their version of the T-50 will be a two seater with longer range than the single seat Russian model. Russia now has the billions of dollars it will take to carry out the T-50 development program. India has become a partner, contributing cash, technology and manufacturing capability.

The T-50 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the 33 ton, Su-27, has much better electronics and is stealthy. It can cruise at above the speed of sound. It also costs at least fifty percent more than the Su-27. That would be some $60 million (for a barebones model, at least 50 percent more with all the options), about what a top-of-the-line F-16 costs. The Su-27 was originally developed to match the F-15, which is larger than the single engine F-16.

Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours, and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile).

The T-50 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22, because the Russian aircraft is not as stealthy. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there except the F-22. If such an T-50 was sold for well under $100 million each, there would be a lot of buyers. Russia says it will begin production, and sales, in five years. That may be too ambitious, but for the moment, the T-50 is the only potential competitor for the F-22 in development. But, as with the F-22, development expenses are increasing, and it looks like the T-50 will cost at least $120 each (including a share of the development cost), but only if 500 or more are manufactured. Only 182 F-22s were built because of the high cost. American developers are now seeking to apply their stealth, and other, technologies, to the development of combat UAVs. Thus by the time the T-50 enters service, in 5-10 years, it may already be made obsolete by cheaper, unmanned, stealthy fighters.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20100914.aspx

^^ strategy page is always full of crap.

Nightcrawler, you are an engineer so I will not over explain this.

What is called stealth in modern fighter and bomber aircraft is actually an attempt to delay not just detection but the ability to lock on an engage by an enemy air defence system or interceptor aircraft.
A Stealthy plane is not radar invisible at all.
The stealthy plane uses its physical shape and surface coatings to reduce the high frequency radar waves of the enemies sensors and weapons to reduce the range at which you can be both detected and engaged.
The point is that only high frequency radar waves are that are short enough to even detect shape will be effected by the shape of the aircraft.
This is OK because traditionally short wave radar is used for terminal guidance (ie for AMRAAM and SPARROW etc etc) either from the missile itself (AMRAAM) or from the launch platform (SPARROW), and the same for ground launched radar guided missiles like HAWK and PATRIOT.
High frequency radar gives the precise position of the target whereas longer range radar will create a larger return somewhere inside which is the target... good enough for detection but simply not accurate enough (in the past) for terminal guidance.

What I am trying to say is that the US has the stealth, but it still uses its old weapons that its own stealth was designed to work against like AMRAAM.

The Russians have fitted long wave AESA antenna arrays within the leading edges of the wings of both the T-50 and the Su-35 which will not be effected by the thin coatings of RAM or the shaping of the aircraft like F-35 and F-22 and B-2.

The US method of finding stealth targets is with high power broadcasts of AESA radars... hardly the best method!

Even if they find each other the US has the AMRAAM which is guided by high frequency radar... the very sensor stealth is designed to work against.
The Russians have a range of BVR IR guided missiles and will no doubt expand that to include IIR guided weapons too.
Add to that the US plans to have their F-22s flying high and at supersonic speeds the IR signals from supersonic leading edges will make them targets rather than hunters.

The comments about the T-50 being a developed Su-27 are interesting because to me the F-22 looks like the F-15 and the F-15 was also used to develop some things for the F-22 like the AESA radar. Such development (installing new stuff in older models developed from new stuff to go in new planes is a world standard practise... all of the US's previous generation fighters are getting AESA radars for example and this is normal).
More Ironically the F-15 is based on the Mig-25 so the F-22s lineage goes back even further than the T-50s.
The YF-23 was new and innovative and was rejected for the greatly modified Mig-25 that is the F-22.

The T-50 is designed to kill F-22s and with its 5 AESA radar antennas (2 wing mounted L and N band, plus three nose mounted X band AESA radars with one facing forward and two facing sideways) it should have a good chance of detecting enemy aircraft before they detect it. It has a much wider range of AAMs to be at its disposal which should give it an advantage in most situations.
It will be tied into an air defence network that it will cooperate with better than any previous Soviet or Russian aircraft before it.

I think it would be operating at a huge disadvantage over enemy territory but as a defensive fighter I think it will be unbeatable because that is what it is designed for.

There will certainly be stealthy unmanned aircraft in 5-10 years time but the claim that the T-50 will be obsolete by then suggests that everyone should cancel the F-35 program too perhaps... yet that is not happening either.

If the T-50 is obsolete in 5-10 years then all aircraft are obsolete in 5-10 years, which of course is clearly rubbish.

The role of the T-50 is air control, which is a role currently effectively carried out by Su-27s and there have been no problems to date with that situation.
When they start upgrading to Su-35s and T-50s they will be even better off.
UAVs and UCAVs are important but ask the Serbs about how easy it is to shoot them down and look at the prices for UAVs and UCAVs and you realise they are not that cheap yet they are easy kills if you can operate your airforce or air defence network. In the Kosovo campaign the Serbs were able to fly along side UAVs in helos and shoot them down with rifle calibre machine guns... they are the future but they are not the only answer... alone they are useless.

Add to that the US plans to have their F-22s flying high and at supersonic speeds the IR signals from supersonic leading edges will make them targets rather than hunters.

But this can also be said about T-50; rather this effect will be much more pronounced

Regarding detection by T-50; its much good than F-22
The PAK-FA therefore has true 360 degree coverage. Additionally the PAK-FA is thought to have L-Band radars mounted in the wing leading edges. These would have both passive and active emitting roles and may be the key to ‘seeing’ stealth aircraft such as the F-22. Alternatively these may be located in the wing LERX sides – the exact location is subject to some speculation.

@GarryB
I have asked abt detection methods about F-22 on a science forum & the reply was as follows. Because I am Chm engineering. not a electrical one I took this reply true (for granted)

I then asked
The Yugoslavians used the old Soviet radar on longer wavelengths to bring a F-117 down. Easily
and reply was

If it was so 'easily' then why was only one F-117 shot down? And if it was so 'easily' done against the F-117, then it should have been a thousand times more 'easily' against much more radar reflective aircrafts. But NATO flew tens of thousands of sorties over Yugoslavia and lost only TWO aircrafts from air defense missiles: one F-16 and one F-117. That is not an air defense combat I would boast about at the bar. Zoltan Dani got lucky from many factors, two important ones were that there were sympathizers who watched NATO flight schedules and that NATO was flying under predictable ingress/egress routes. Predictability equals to death in war. Still...To this day, Dani refused to divulge how many missiles he launched and the F-117 pilot, Dale Zelko, recalled he had to dodge at least two missiles. That mean it was a classic 'spray-and-pray' tactic that goes back to WW II AA gunnery. There were no MIG involved.

^^^ A quick reply on NATO campaign.

The problem for Yugoslavia Air Defence System was the overwhelming presence of ELINT, Jammers, Aircraft and Aircraft buzzing with HARM.

NATO knew that Yugoslavia had a decent AD system and most importantly these people were quite smart which is to say learnt and adapted rapidly.

So when ever Yugoslavia SAM operator would track,cue the radar they was a much higher chance that they were fingerprinted by ELINT , Jammed by Jammers and finally the HARM would take it out, much faster that they could react and move their mobile system , more ever they operated 70's SA-6 and SA-3 with some incremental improvements.

F-117 was shot down by smart tactics , careful use of Radar emmision and passive system and bad planning by NATO.

No one can take the credit away from Yugoslavia for shooting the F-117.

Infact on most NATO bombing missile even the mighty B-2 was accompained by Jammers and Fighters , B-2 did not went in alone and hit their targets , which is suppose to be key B-2 mission facing exponentially more sophisticated threats of Soviet integrated AD system.