Holodomor 1932-33: Genocide or unfortunate famine?

the famine was part of bolsheviks BS economic policies

Times were tough in the 1930s around most of the world and Russia was not the only place to have famines.

Why do you think the US wanted to be paid in grain for their agricultural machinery and services?

Could argue it was to create a famine in Russia but it is probably just as valid to say to reduce famine potential in the US too.

Probably both.

The Czech Republic recognizes the Holodomor as Genocide:

https://www.rferl.org/a/czech-recognition-holodomor-genocide/31789101.html

Just some thoughts:

1. Per American historian Stephen Kotkin, the republic that suffered the most deaths from the famine was Kazakhstan
2. The Ukes like bringing up Holodomor because it allows them to deflect attention from their role in perpetuating the Holocaust. Every death camp in the reich had lots of Ukrainian guards.
3. The famine was caused by addiction to ideology, communism, that led the Stalin government to buy into the horrid junk science of Trofim Lysenko, a Ukrainian agronomist who killed several million in the USSR and millions more in China after Brezhnev finally gave him the boot. This junk science said that in a new workers' state the crops would reflect communist ideas and would cooperate and not compete for nutrients and resources. It was stupendously stupid and poorly thought out agricultural policy. It was not genocide as it did not envisage the deaths of any ethnicity.

Ironic that the current regime is sending conscripts to their deaths in an apparent genocide of their own people... funny how they care so much for Ukraines killed in the 1930s but could care less about the Ukrainians they have been shelling the last 8 years or the Ukrainians they are sending to the front now to try to kill Russians with the inevitable result of them being killed in enormous numbers instead... and fully predictably too.

Germany to call famine that killed millions of ukrainians

https://www.euronews.com/2022/11/25/holodomor-germany-to-call-famine-that-killed-millions-of-ukrainians-in-the-1930s-a-genocid#vuukle-comments-2133840


I say these responses on another forum about the holodomor in the former USSR and I want to know is it true that:


  "Genocide was committed by way of Creating an Artificial Famine using such Mechanisms as isolation of Ukraine's Territory by special Red Army armed Military units; inscription of Districts & Localities into the so-called Black Boards, blockade by Troops, ban on People's movement outside the bounds of these Areas, full seizure of Foodstuffs & Seed Stocks, trade ban; restriction of free movement of Peasants with the aim of looking for Foodstuffs.. Genocide in Ukraine in 1932-33 is proved by 3,685 Soviet Classified Documents, including with Joseph Stalin's Signature, & many other Papers, as well as 933 mass burial Places of Genocide Victims. Holodomor took from a very Conservative Estimate 7 to a more Likely 10 million lives in Ukraine, including around 4 Million Children, which was 25% of the Country's Population at that Time."


"No. The Bolsheviks took their farm equipment, tools, food and seed. They even searched homes for hiding places where farmers and their families stored away seed and grain. This was an intentional and man made famine."



https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1376624/
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That happened as part of the Soviet collectivization drive. But sure try to paint it as "genocide of the Ukrainian people".  
It had nothing to do with ethnic makeup and all to do with ending private farms and pushing farmers into cooperatives.
When a lot of private farmers started slaughtering their livestock and hiding or burning their crops as retaliation the government started using armed force to confiscate crops and livestock.

Those numbers of deaths also are fabricated. They are assuming the population should grow at some rate, and it did not, it is OMG children were not born in the numbers we expected = dead children. What about the deaths of capitalism in post Soviet Lithuania? Since birth rate declined it is also OMG dead children. When is that going to be painted as genocide by capitalist Lithuanian government?

Just some thoughts:

1. Per American historian Stephen Kotkin, the republic that suffered the most deaths from the famine was Kazakhstan
2. The Ukes like bringing up Holodomor because it allows them to deflect attention from their role in perpetuating the Holocaust. Every death camp in the reich had lots of Ukrainian guards.
3. The famine was caused by addiction to ideology, communism, that led the Stalin government to buy into the horrid junk science of Trofim Lysenko, a Ukrainian agronomist who killed several million in the USSR and millions more in China after Brezhnev finally gave him the boot. This junk science said that in a new workers' state the crops would reflect communist ideas and would cooperate and not compete for nutrients and resources. It was stupendously stupid and poorly thought out agricultural policy. It was not genocide as it did not envisage the deaths of any ethnicity.
GarryB and flamming_python like this post

There were a lot of contributing factors for the famine deaths

1. Lysenko's fallacious agricultural theories and the inclination towards ideological pseudoscience that took hold under Stalin  
2. A couple of pretty bad harvest seasons
3. Stalin imperative to export grain to fund the purchase of equipment and machinery from the West for industrialization, as they wouldn't take gold for payment
4. Cancellation of Lenin's New Economic Policy that enabled farmers and peasants to profit from surpluses grown, enticing them to increase production and work more - in favour of collectivization.
5. Harsh collectivization measures enacted on the ground to support the quota of grain that needed to be collected for export, with accusations of sabotage, etc.. against villages not providing as much as expected, and confiscation of stores of grain they need to survive the following year themselves. Against the nomadic pastoral farmers in Kazakhstan this had an even worse effect.
6. Campaign against the Kulaks (and Bays in Kazakhstan), rich landowning peasants typically with others in their employ, who were also skilled farmers and efficient organizers, later Zimbabwe and now South Africa repeated this mistake to worse effect with the land confiscations against the white farmers
7. Relief measures were enacted too late

A government in Kiev sending their own conscripted men in human wave attacks on Russian positions with no air or artillery support against a force with air and artillery support... I will care about Ukrainians when their own government start... being blown to small pieces in a red mist is probably a more humane way to die than starving to death.

The famine in Ukraine was substantially the result of resistance by farmers who burned their own crops and killed their own livestock.
The resistance was to forced collectivization that really kicked into gear after Stalin took power. The "kulaks" in Russia and "kurkuls"
in Ukraine were to be removed as a class because the lunatics in the commie party branded them burgoisie. They were nothing of
the sort and their "exploitation" of the peasant proletariat reflected the personal work ethics of these proles. Not everyone had the
initiative to be a good farm manager and most simply hired themselves out for work. (I have personal family history in Latin America
on which to base my claims. No, my family did not run a plantation.)

The famine on the Volga and in Kazakhstan was indeed the result of seizing seed grain as some sort of "profit" to be shared out to the
proles. The ham-fisted and meat-headed commies have shown such characteristics everywhere they got power. In China, in Cambodia
and elsewhere. The Latin American versions are distinct. Cuba never went over the sanity cliff like China and the USSR. This is a
complex subject.

One aspect that may be tin foil hat conspiracy theory is that Stalin created hardship in rural areas to drive people into the cities. This
was to achieve his shock industrialization plans. The USSR was mostly agrarian in the 1920s. The central planners needed to move
the historical clock fast. Of course, this creates millions of victims. But I am not so sure massive urbanization was so essential for
industrialization. It is not like there were no people in Soviet cities in 1930. The educated variety would not arrive on the scene
until 20 years after the migration. So the 1930s industrialization was based on people who did not migrate from the rural areas.