Russian Auto Industry

The cosmetic refresh cycle trash does not even last 10 years. That is not a self-evidently superior model for
car production.

Watch some car review videos. They are obsessed with soft plastics and cup holder features. They barely touch
on the mechanical robustness.

Robert.V wrote:

kvs wrote:Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.   The annual cosmetic redesign which serves no purpose is what drives the costs.
It is a trick to make getting replacement parts expensive.  So everyone is supposed to keep their car for only 4 years.   Russia can
"regress" to the actual good old days of the USSR.   Make the cars simpler and don't waste money on annual retooling.   Do it every
5 years or even long.   The proles will have to lump it.   It is tiresome to listen to how the "consumers drive the market".   BS.  Look
at mass media and entertainment.   The precious consumers eat the shit that they are dished out.

Bad, idea.  Soviet stagnated their Automobile manufacturers because of exactly that. Keeping automobiles on the production line that should have been replaced decades ago and or barely refreshing them.

But is there a niche for cheap cars that look like crap but that run forever?

I'd say there is. I remember meeting one man from Israel, who swore by the Lada Niva as the best invention out of Russia and would mention the thing at every turn over the course of our correspondence. And this guy had no Russian ancestry or any experience with the Russian/Soviet automobile industry prior.

These types of cars have their fans, and if it's economical to keep them in production in lower numbers then rest assured they will continue to have their customer base and make money for the brand owners.

But for mass production Russia needs to do the same as everybody else. Just a fact of the market. People do like buying cars that they then have to replace in 5-10 years, provided they can afford this habit - much as they like buying new phones every 2 years instead of just sticking with older models for 5 years. It's not just a matter of that being their only option. Cars are also a status symbol, new models are regularly introduced with features that make drivers lives easier or more comfortable, and car designs visually go out of fashion after a period of time too.

It is true that the Soviet model locked in the design for way too long (e.g. the "buhanka"). But you do not need a design refresh
every year. And my original point was about the parts. There is no reason to change out every component together with
the shell, internal plastics, driver display, entertainment system, etc. When you go to get your car fixed, you are not spending money
on replacing internal plastics or even the dash control/entertainment system.

The western car model is a racket and Russia not need to mimic it to keep up. There is nothing to keep up with. People are seriously
confused about the technology lifecycle in automobiles. It has nothing to do with annual marketing driven cosmetic makeovers. The
problems in the Russian car industry the legacy of the Soviet era and the 1990s mafia rot. Berezovsky was a mafioso who contributed
much to screwing up the Russian car industry.

I think Chinese and other non-western car brands should be allowed inside Russia to put some fire under the testicles of the managers
at AvtoVaz, etc. In terms of commercial vehicle production, Russia has been doing vastly better than with the consumer sector.

kvs wrote:It is true that the Soviet model locked in the design for way too long (e.g. the "buhanka").   But you do not need a design refresh
every year.   And my original point was about the parts.   There is no reason to change out every component together with
the shell, internal plastics, driver display, entertainment system, etc.   When you go to get your car fixed, you are not spending money
on replacing internal plastics or even the dash control/entertainment system.  

 

Oh, I agree.

Unless I'm mistaken though. Not many manufactures do design refresh every year.  That was really only common in the states in the 50's, 60's and half way thru the 70's.

A refresh generally happened every four~ five years.  With model range lasting up to 7 to 10 years.

flamming_python wrote:

But is there a niche for cheap cars that look like crap but that run forever?

Like with porn.  There is a niche for everything my friend.

New electric cars will become very much like apple computers... you replace them every 2-3 years when the battery stops holding charge...

I wonder if they can modularise the basics, so you buy a car, which is a car body with the lower portion being the electric motors built in to the wheels and the lower chassis which is the batteries and electronics, and then you choose... how many people positions... do you want a single seat vehicle for commuting to work every day, or a two seat in case you take some one home, or do you want the two front seats and three back seats and then boot for shopping, or scrub the boot and just have two sets of back seats each holding three seats... three for the front seat as well so a 9 seater... normal car doors or sliding doors and large rear hatch door...

The top shell would determine the number of seating positions or whether it is a car or a mini or a van or light truck or a minivan or flat bed ute.

You could design it so that you had one base and could replace the tops yourself so during the week you had a tiny car for the commute to work with a light cheap small two seater, but larger shells like four seat or more might have extra batteries.

The could design the shells to look like classic cars for the weekend or a SUV shell for weekend for skiing holidays or trips to the supermarket.

But how do you make it profitable?

Lack of standardization is a clear sign of a racket. This is where the government is supposed to step in and regulate. It is not
a case of interference in the market that degrades consumer options and introduces inefficiencies. It is actually a case of fighting
criminality.

kvs wrote:Lack of standardization is a clear sign of a racket.   This is where the government is supposed to step in and regulate.   It is not
a case of interference in the market that degrades consumer options and introduces inefficiencies.   It is actually a case of fighting
criminality.  

I think it will happen eventually but right now no one has figured out the correct battery pack. Note that the battery packs still use standardized cells inside, it is just the packs which are non-standard.

An opportunity for Russia perhaps... they were working on graphene based batteries that hold their charge down to minus 50 degrees C... and they also mentioned that they were building a lithium battery reprocessing plant a while back in the technology thread.

Once they have a good reliable powerful cold resistant battery perhaps Russia can use their laws the way the EU does to regulate Russian vehicles for the purpose of ensuring simplified reprocessing the materials and standardise battery chemistries if not shapes.

You might have a couple of different standards for say light vehicles and heavier vehicles from mopeds and motor bikes through tiny cars, small, medium, large cars, light trucks and vans, through to large vans and trucks and buses and even trains and aircraft.

There was a recent article in the UAV section about Russian companies developing electric motors in a broad range of sizes, so having batteries to match would make sense too.

Robert.V wrote:

kvs wrote:Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.   The annual cosmetic redesign which serves no purpose is what drives the costs.
It is a trick to make getting replacement parts expensive.  So everyone is supposed to keep their car for only 4 years.   Russia can
"regress" to the actual good old days of the USSR.   Make the cars simpler and don't waste money on annual retooling.   Do it every
5 years or even long.   The proles will have to lump it.   It is tiresome to listen to how the "consumers drive the market".   BS.  Look
at mass media and entertainment.   The precious consumers eat the shit that they are dished out.

Bad, idea.  Soviet stagnated their Automobile manufacturers because of exactly that. Keeping automobiles on the production line that should have been replaced decades ago and or barely refreshing them.

I disagree. We have gone waaaaaay far off to the other extreme. The amount of bloatware and waste in modern autos is sickening. And because of this , cars are getting heavier and less efficient. Some mid 90's cars actually get better fuel economy than today's equivalents because of this. Look at the screens in some of this new stuff like the new Cadillac Escalade. It's insane.

There are lots of segments in the auto industry where frills don't matter. The Nissan Frontier for example , was the same model from 1997 to 2021.

My 2003 diesel car currently gets 25km to the litre.
I have not bothered to "upgrade" to a new "better" car because I don't drink from their "consumers" cup.
It does everything a newer car does, and everything I require of it. At a fraction of the cost.
I'm not an idiot.
I realised years ago what the car industry was about, supported by govt "legislation" that attempts to make it harder to keep that car.

Backman wrote:

Robert.V wrote:

kvs wrote:Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.   The annual cosmetic redesign which serves no purpose is what drives the costs.
It is a trick to make getting replacement parts expensive.  So everyone is supposed to keep their car for only 4 years.   Russia can
"regress" to the actual good old days of the USSR.   Make the cars simpler and don't waste money on annual retooling.   Do it every
5 years or even long.   The proles will have to lump it.   It is tiresome to listen to how the "consumers drive the market".   BS.  Look
at mass media and entertainment.   The precious consumers eat the shit that they are dished out.

Bad, idea.  Soviet stagnated their Automobile manufacturers because of exactly that. Keeping automobiles on the production line that should have been replaced decades ago and or barely refreshing them.

I disagree. We have gone waaaaaay far off to the other extreme. The amount of bloatware and waste in modern autos is sickening. And because of this , cars are getting heavier and less efficient. Some mid 90's cars actually get better fuel economy than today's equivalents because of this. Look at the screens in some of this new stuff like the new Cadillac Escalade. It's insane.

There are lots of segments in the auto industry where frills don't matter.  The Nissan Frontier for example , was the same model from 1997 to 2021.

What does bloatware have to do with keeping models running with little to half ass changes for decades like the soviets did?   You're reply to my post  makes no sense.  


Also,  cars are getting heavier because they are getting safer both in terms of crash collision and in terms of helping you avoid it. Not because of "waste or bloatware."

Now you might argue is something like Automatic Emergency Braking really necessary or safe.  I'd say ride with a fucking woman in a car you will very much be happy that car has that option.


The only real bloatware in a car.    I would say is the control and navigation displays evolving into very much for the most part useless infotainment systems  with  frankly horrible input and interfaces.

I have abs and airbags and Aircon in my 2003 Peugeot.
I don't have fancy displays/dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree to distract me when driving.
It uses 4 litres per 100km, and gets me where I want safely, warmly, dry, reliably, and economically.
The govt here, in collusion with insurance companies, try and get me to "upgrade".
I'm completely disinterested in their games.

Yep, infotainment systems especially modern once are fucking plague and utterly unsafe especially the fully  touch screen/pad ones.  with zillion fucking slow ass menus, etc.    

Fortunately enough proper buttons are coming back.   PSA Group especially seem to have gotten the clue a head of others.

Another car trend I wish we never had is modern car seats  courtesy of the German and the fucking Swedes.  Which every car manufacturer started to adopt after the 90's.    Rock hard and most of the time offer no comfortable driving position.    And this shit is supposed to be good for you're back ?

If you ever driven  a old school Peugeot,  Citroen, American or some of the older luxury Italian cars.  You know what I mean.    

Peugeot in the 90's especially.  Top of the range had superb seats and ride comfort while also  being great handling cars  that utterly took a shit on the Germans.   Yet, badge snobbery prevailed.

Robert.V wrote:Another car trend I wish we never had is modern car seats  courtesy of the German and the fucking Swedes.  Which every car manufacturer started to adopt after the 90's.    Rock hard and most of the time offer no comfortable driving position.    And this shit is supposed to be good for you're back ?

If you ever driven  a old school Peugeot,  Citroen, American or some of the older luxury Italian cars.  You know what I mean.    

Peugeot in the 90's especially.  Top of the range had superb seats and ride comfort while also  being great handling cars  that utterly took a shit on the Germans.   Yet, badge snobbery prevailed.

A lot of German cars I drove, especially the smaller ones, had overly stiff suspension and rock hard seats.
A terrible drive.
My old Peugeot shits all over them in ride quality...another reason I'm quite happy to keep it, nevermind its efficiency.
My nephew has a brand new VW something-or-other.
His consternation when I demonstrated my fuel usage left him without words.

Production of components for AvtoVAZ vehicles doubled in Belgorod Region
2022-10-06

"Starooskolsky plant of automotive and tractor electrical equipment named after V.I. A.M. Mamonov (JSC SOATE) increased the production of parts for gear shifting mechanisms from 120 thousand to 280 thousand sets per year. They are used in the assembly of finished gearboxes and the subsequent assembly of Lada Granta, Lada Vesta and Niva cars.

Earlier in the market, according to the company, more than 50% of such parts were foreign-made, mainly from Europe. Now the company will completely replace imports.

Investments in the expansion of production exceeded 390 million rubles, of which 300 million rubles was a soft loan from the Industrial Development Fund.

“Thanks to the FRP project, we have the opportunity to produce any parts with mechanical processing by injection molding and weighing up to 3 kg. Now we have been able to localize the production of gearbox components in Russia, which were previously supplied from abroad. In parallel with this, we additionally created 21 highly productive workplaces ,” said Vladimir Boev, Managing Director of SOATE JSC.

Parts of the gearshift mechanism are made entirely from domestic raw materials.

It is noted that the manufactured products are developed by manufacturers of automotive components and correspond to the world level in terms of technical indicators. The competitive advantage is a lower price compared to foreign counterparts and better logistics.

Recall that the Industrial Development Fund was created to modernize Russian enterprises, organize new industries and ensure import substitution. FRP programs allow Russian companies to get access to concessional loan financing necessary to launch the production of unique domestic products, as well as analogues of advanced international developments. The IDF provides loans at 1% and 3% per annum for up to 10 years in the amount of 5 million to 5 billion rubles, stimulating the inflow of direct investment in the real sector of the economy.

https://uronili-salo.livejournal.com/299032.html


The Ministry of Industry and Trade reported a 26.5 percent increase in car production in Russia in August
2022-09-28

Production of cars of all segments in Russia in August increased by 26.5% compared to July, to 37.1 thousand, Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade Albert Karimov told reporters.

"We have a production of about 420 thousand cars, which is also 60% less than in the same period last year. This is the latest operational data for 8 months. To a lesser extent, we see a decrease in buses and trucks - about 13-14%, the largest a decrease in passenger cars - more than 60%. Production by July is positive - an increase of 26.5% ," he said.

At the same time, the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation specified that in absolute terms, 37.1 thousand cars were produced in August (-59.5% compared to August 2021).

Also, according to the ministry, a total of 513 thousand cars were sold in eight months (-57% in annual terms).

“The situation here is different in terms of different segments. We see the smallest decline in buses – there is only about 1.5%, the largest – in cars. At the same time, sales in August are growing compared to July: in August, sales amounted to 54,000 cars, which is almost 22% more than a month earlier ," Karimov explained.

https://1prime.ru/industry_and_energy/20220928/838279973.html

The names of the new "Muscovites" have been revealed: these will be rebadged JAC vehicles, the brand has received VTA for gasoline and electric crossovers
November 16, 2022

Vehicle type approvals (VTA) for new "Muscovites" have appeared on the Web. The Moskvich 3 and Moskvich 3e models are the rebadged JAC JS4 and E40X, so the initial rumors were once again confirmed. The Moskvich 3 crossover will be offered with two engines to choose from, aspirated or turbocharged. The Moskvich 3e will receive a 68-horsepower electric motor and will be able to drive up to 410 kilometers without recharging. The production of the machines was planned to be launched by the end of this year.

According to the VTA, JAC JS4 crossovers will be sold under the name "Moskvich 3". Moreover, KAMAZ is indicated as a car manufacturer, and the Moscow Automobile Plant Moskvich, formerly Renault Russia, is indicated as an assembly plant.

Two modifications have been announced, both front-wheel drive, with a six-speed "manual" or a CVT. Engines - "aspirated" 1.6 (109 hp, 150 Nm) and turbocharged 1.5 (150 hp, 210 Nm), powered by gasoline AI-92.

The Moskvich 3 equipment will include power windows, climate control, tire pressure monitoring and a driver's airbag. Cruise control, rear view camera, parking sensors, passenger airbag and side curtains will be offered for an additional fee.

The JAC E40X electric all-terrain vehicle will turn into the Moskvich 3e. It will be equipped with a liquid-cooled DY Power electric motor (68 hp) and a Sinoev Technologies battery with a capacity of 187 ampere-hours (250-450 V). The declared power reserve is 410 kilometers. The list of equipment for the electric Moskvich is the same as for the gasoline twin brother.

Last summer, Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin unveiled the "road map" of the Moskvich plant for the coming years. The first stage is the organization of large scale assembly of cars from so-called friendly countries. The second is a deeper localization of the production of the same machines. And only then the company will start assembling its own electric vehicles. KAMAZ will be the main technological partner of the project.

https://motor.ru/news/moksvich-otts-16-11-2022.htm

Good to see how it will be working with Kamaz and others in tandem and localizing production and manufacturing.

Right move imo.