PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

The YF-22 didn't have a working AESA radar either, and its RCS was worse than the YF-23 yet it was the aircraft design they chose.

you are correct but this forum is heavily biased with red tainted glasses , expect no reason and common sense here...

Hahahaha... yes... we are all biased evil fools... On F-16.net however you can troll an never get a bad word said against you in the interests of reasoned debate.

BTW

We have a rule here that the first post should be an introduction in the "Members rules and introductions" section.
Too late now, you don't have to delete your first posts but I would appreciate it if you take the time to look in the "Members Rules and Introductions" section and start a new thread to introduce yourself.

While you are there there are a couple of rules threads you might like to look through, and of course feel free to look at the introduction posts by other members so you have an idea of who you are talking to and to see what is expected in your intro thread.

while he would have been banned on mp.net or f16 if they talked bad about America anything.

And that is where this forum is different from the pro USA equivalent.

We wont ban members for having different opinions... It is OK for them to disagree with us... we can't force them to be right.

Actually sometimes I find people who disagree make me think more about what I know and what I believe, of course there is reasoned debate and there is trolling.

Claiming the PAK FA is not a 5th gen fighter is amusing... is twinkle in your fathers eye your new brother or sister?

That is OK... they have been told for a long time that the US makes all the good things and the Soviets either make crap or if they do manage to make anything worth while it is a copy of something the US rejected long ago.

Now they have to deal with the fact that the Russians are every bit as capable of making things to kill people as they are... in fact in many ways the Russian products tend to have more practical features and are cheaper.

And what probably annoys them the most is that the Russians are upgrading everything, while western politicians are looking for things to cut...

Here is the difference GarryB - They ban anyone who they disagree with. But they also ban trolls who are spewing crap just for the sake of it. And this Pakistani guy is no different.

First of all lets be clear, I don't bother with US Strong web forums because there are too many teenage americans who don't know and more importantly don't care that they are wrong... they are there to transmit, not to receive.

What the mods on those forums do or do not do doesn't bother me, what I do here is what I am concerned with and I am not going to start banning people because they don't agree with me, or in this case are plainly trying to get a reaction.

What makes you think this new member is pakistani?

2) this could be RPG's another account to troll to try to make himself sound smarter (which is a hard thing to do) or 3) this guy cannot read and he has more problems on his hands than the issues regarding PAK FA.

In which case a PM to Vlad79 to see if they are sharing an IP address would be the much more sensible course of action.

I am sure if he couldn't read he would be much less annoying to you.

There is reading and there is believing... I don't believe the BS from US companies about their products either. 180km range AMRAAMs indeed.

RPG sometimes comes up with good comments, but even he falls short a lot of times on basic info and I don't think he does it because he doesn't know better. I think he knows very well. He just does this for spite.

I think perhaps you are giving him rather too much credit. The fact that sometimes he says something normal in amongst his baiting doesn't stop him being a troll... he is not here to learn... he just likes to wind people up.

Most of the time if you remain calm and stick to facts it becomes clear he is just a troll.

And because of this, it really does degrade the quality of this forums. I would like to stay to continue on with the Russia economic topics, but with people continuously jumping up and down blowing hot air with very little evidence (I have asked for links to "Claims" for a long time and not received a single one), makes it really hard.

Refuting stupid claims does not degrade the quality of the forums... filling the forums with yes men fanboys does not improve quality either. Sensible, reasoned debate is what we are after and if everyone keeps their cool we can have that with or without trolls.

and probably called SU-50. not Pak-FA..

The PAK FA will have an even number because it is a fighter/interceptor first and foremost. The Su-35 has full air to air and air to ground capability, as does the Mig-35. Su-37 is taken so logically unless Su-39 is used for the new CAS aircraft the PAK FA should be called Su-41.

Reason why they are doing multiple frames with different components to test is so that they dont have a collasal failure that happened on Su-37 when that crashed.

Most aircraft programs use multiple prototypes to speed up testing... in fact the Tu-160 had its cockpit and radar system fitted to a Tu-134 Crusty airliner to speed up testing and crew training.

My question is why are all you guys responding to an obvious troll?

Ignore list exists u know!

As a mod I pretty much have to read everything posted so I have to read their crap....  

I have the power to ban.

So do the other moderators...

We are not going to ban members for being ignorant of certain facts, or just thinking differently... there are no rules regarding that.

Members can only ruin this forum if you let them.

Refute claims you see as illogical, but don't be dragged down to their level... personal insults are against the rules and that is pretty clear cut so if I am going to ban anyone it will be for that.

If what someone else posts frustrates you or annoys you go and make yourself a nice hot drink and think about it for a bit.

If they said it to wind you up would it help to get wound up?

Arguing is easy... accepting a different opinion is not the same as agreeing with it.

If Captain Pakistan really is from Pakistan then of course he is going to hope and pray that Russian technology is rubbish because Pakistan has a rather large neighbour it is not really on friendly terms with that is awash with said technology so thinking it is useless probably helps him sleep at night... the world is full of such people banning one now will not rid the world of such people, nor will it keep this forum clear of such people.

We all have our faults... I myself often find I am rather too optimistic when it comes to Russian technology and equipment and rely on you TR-1 and Flaming Python and The Armenian and Austin and other members to keep me being too optimistic.

I can honestly say if we were all pessimistic no one would have been to the moon and it would be a much darker more unpleasant place to live.

Anyway... back on topic... all new digital AESA seekers for R-77s... this offers new potential... as AESA elements get smaller and cheaper and easier to mass produce they become more viable for applications previously not really considered. When they cost a few dollars each then 64 mounted in an array in the nose of a missile become affordable so you can start considering fitting them to weapons you wouldn't normally fit them to... for instance imagine a brimstone like version of Gran that can be lofted into the air via a 120mm mortar and then accelerated by rocket motor to targets 9-10km away using active radar homing against enemy tanks and armoured vehicles and even field fortifications and buildings.

Such AESA arrays could be fitted in the nose and tail and wingtips of helicopters to allow 360 degree scanning, threat detection, surveillance, and target engagement. SARH is cheap and simple and could be applied to ATGMs to allow targets to be fired upon and then the helo can turn and leave the area continuing to mark multiple targets with AESA elements for the fired missiles to hit.

Systems like TOR can use combination IIR/ARH seekers as well as standard command guided missiles to allow a wider range of targets to be engaged.

The new ATGMs with top attack capability could use standard laser beam riding guidance till the missile is a few dozen metres from the target where it could execute a steep climb and then a steep pitch down to point the warhead at the target before firing the shaped charge down onto the top of the tank. Such a manouver is common with some types of anti ship missile, but could evade APS type defences in an ATGM attack.

The fact that the new AESAs are digital makes them smaller and faster and more accurate which is always better when it comes to missile guidance.

We need to start a petition to Vladimir to give Garry ban powers.

I assume you mean our Vlad and not Putin BTW...  

That Vlad could give me some useful powers... they have a new government department similar to the US Darpa that would be a very interesting job...  

Im not worried about Indian Air Force. Pakistan have F-16's which are better than anything India has at the moment, so this is not an issue of national pride.

So you are in denial... that is fine.

When you have a superpower behind you you can pretend lots of things... but when the majority of US forces leaves Afghanistan and the token force remains to keep the guard at the edge of the empire they wont need Pakistan for very much at all... in fact your best chance of being useful then is as a balance against China, but you trade with them and they might be your only source of weapons in the next few decades... and what has pride to do with national survival?

Firstly, its RCS has been quoted as 0.5m^2 by Indian officials who are funding the project due to Russian lack of funds.

Is that peak or average? If it is average... which includes 360 degrees, then that is about as good as anyone would expect the US fighters to have too... perhaps slightly smaller.

They have seen the plane, been briefed on it etc. )0.5m^2 is vastly inferior to the 0.0001 m^2 of the F-22 and the 0.001m^2 of the F-35. Its not even a contest.

Never a contest comparing peak RCS reduction vs average RCS reduction... and BTW do you believe those US figures?

These are perfect lab figures... a raindrop on the surface or slightly raised screw and the RCS rockets up dramatically.

Even the F/A-18E has a better RCS than this PAK FA, as does the Rafale. This is not a stealth platform.

Again peak vs average and in the case of the Hornet and Rafale that is clean with no weapons... ie in a useless state.

This is not a stealth platform. Look at its engine.

Hahahaha... it is not a fighter either because that PROTOTYPE isn't fitted with a fire control systems or tested with weapons yet as well.  

See those clearly visible blades? Very bad for stealth. At this rate maybe even JF-17 with its DSI is better frontal RCS (if it carries no weapons).

You really think the stealth prototype that tests the aircrafts operational RCS will be displayed for pictures? Ever?

We haven't seen the stealthy version of the S-37, nor the Mig MFS contender.

Also look at build quality. Flame out at airshow = embarssement infront of the whole world:

A flameout is a common problem with new engines... on the other hand problems with the flight control system that result in this are rather more serious:

So lets not talk about Pakistan and planes not flying. Pakistani pilots get more hours than Russian Pilots and have better planes.

Pakistan has lots of very professional pilots that will have to operate over the next decade or two at a serious disadvantage in terms of equipment, sadly your trolling gives them and your countrymen a bad name.

Still finding people who think everything country X makes must be the best and all else is crap is common on the internet... the amusing thing is that the real professionals don't agree with them. Israeli special forces are happy to use AKs when it suits their needs and they were happy to use captured T series tanks when they were available too.

If all Russian stuff is crap then why does Pakistan buy Mi-17 helicopters and modified RD-33 engines for its aircraft?

When you mentioned ACIG I thought you might be worthy of chatting to even if we didn't agree but it seems you are just a boring fanboi troll like RPG... more interested in a reaction than a serious discussion.