PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

magnumcromagnon wrote:

lulldapull wrote:Man, after that SSBN explosion and sinking in the docks of that Recently refurbished Russian Sub in India, I think even that program is under critical review. Many died on that boat and it also sank in the harbor.

The Admiral Gorshkov legacy debacle is also well known in being extremely over budget and over schedule. In the end the IN is getting a dated vessel.

I read recently in the AFM article that the IN admiralty was not in favour of the Mig-29N acquisition either hoping to get the F-18E/F, but the costs killed that for the moment. I won't be surprised if the IN opts for the F-18E/F in the future. Same logic led to the dumping of the mig-35 OVT's.

I doubt if the future is there for India and Russia, because now as evidence points out India is opting more and more for Western goods, because it is not broke anymore like in the 60's/ 70's or 80's and can actually afford better equipment.

...CaptainPakistan?

At least he's learnt some humility since his last visit.

Sujoy, I believe that India now has moved on from doing partnerships with Russia, especially with the procurement of the Rafale in large quantities with Dassault in France.

MMRCA was always a stopgap program to fill a gap between the M2K and the FFGA. India wanted to make Mirage 2000s but the French blocked them. They wanted to buy Rafales but the price offered was ridiculous.

They held the MMRCA program in the hopes of reducing the price of the Rafale but it seems to me to have skyrocketed.

The French are burning the Indians... making them pay heavy fighter prices for a medium weight fighter and Indians seem to be grateful for this...

Last figure I saw was 18 billion dollars... which is 8 billion more than they agreed... that is eight times the cost increase of the Gorshkov carrier price which only went from 1.4 billion to 2.4 billion... where are the complaints here... Rafale is a nice plane but hardly a 5th gen fighter.

It was a body blow to both okb mig and Sukhoi!

Sukhoi wasn't even involved in the MMRCA as it was for medium fighters and the Flanker did not qualify.

Mig is already busy making Mig-29Ks for the Indian Navy, Mig-29UBT upgrades for the Indian AF and Mig-29Ks for the Russian Navy and Mig-35s for the Russian AF... I very much suspect they would likely have had problems meeting the production deadlines for the MMRCA anyway.

After this FGFA drama is over future contracts are in doubt.

The only drama has been fabricated in the Indian media largely by western sources/stooges.

The Poseidon and C-130 acquisitions also point toward India opening up more to the Western suppliers and culling its dependency on Russian arms manufacturers.

India has always been able to buy from anyone they wanted to... previously they have chosen to buy Soviet equipment for about 70% of their needs and today they have similar purchase levels with Russia.

Man, after that SSBN explosion and sinking in the docks of that Recently refurbished Russian Sub in India, I think even that program is under critical review. Many died on that boat and it also sank in the harbor.

India doesn't have any SSBNs.

The Admiral Gorshkov legacy debacle is also well known in being extremely over budget and over schedule. In the end the IN is getting a dated vessel.

8 time less the cost overruns of the Rafales in the MMRCA program... in which they are getting 4th gen fighters... yet no complaints...

I read recently in the AFM article that the IN admiralty was not in favour of the Mig-29N acquisition either hoping to get the F-18E/F, but the costs killed that for the moment.

Hahahahaha... what idiot wrote that? The cost of a super hornet is high enough to make those rafales look cheap... and you might consider some inflight refuellers to go with them because without catapults they wont fit on any of Indias current or planned aircraft carriers.

The Mig-29N was the Fulcrum Malaysia bought... the Indian Navy clearly wanted the Mig-29s they bought to operate from carriers so they sensibly bought Mig-29Ks.

I won't be surprised if the IN opts for the F-18E/F in the future. Same logic led to the dumping of the mig-35 OVT's.

Why buy land based Hornets?

BTW there is no such thing as a Mig-35 OVT. The Mig-29OVT was an experimental Mig-29 with thrust vectoring engine nozzles.

I doubt if the future is there for India and Russia, because now as evidence points out India is opting more and more for Western goods,

You might want to look again... India has always spread its purchases and I rather suspect that the contracts that didn't go to Russia would have traditionally gone to France or Europe.

Their purchases of American kit so far have been amusing... the C-130 is outdated and not the best aircraft for that role... they would have been much better off if they had waited and bought Ukrainian An-70s for instance... a much better aircraft.

because it is not broke anymore like in the 60's/ 70's or 80's and can actually afford better equipment.

India has never been broke and has always had money to spend... they haven't spent it on western kit because Soviet or Russian kit suited their needs better. That isn't going to change over night.

Were you out with opiates when India rejected the mig-35OVT, hands down? despite all okb mig tried to cajole them with?

No such thing as Mig-35OVT.

Second the India Air Force pretty much stated they didn't want another Russian aircraft to win the MMRCA competition... as I have said they bought Mirage 2000s and Jaguars along with Mig-21s and Mig-27s so they didn't have an all Soviet air force and they wanted to make Mirage 2000s or buy Rafales to use with their Su-30s and FFGAs. If they bought Mig-35s they would have had an all Russian air fleet... which they didn't want.

Personally I think they should have gone with a mixed fleet of 60 Rafales and probably 150 Mig-29Ms and joint developed an AESA radar to fit to the Migs that would otherwise have been cheap and quick to produce and get into service.

And BTW they didn't just reject the Mig-35... they also rejected what should have been the most eligible batchelor in the room... the F-35... which should have been the best dressed... but India wasn't even interested...

FGFA is going to be a PAK-FA clone................nothing more nothing less, and the IAF will be forced to invest in western avionics as usual, because Russia would not transfer its avionics suite to India no matter what. So another MKI in the making.

But surely western avionics would be much much better anyway right?

and with the explosion aboard the defective recently upgraded Kilo in the dock the mood is down.

Kilos are in very widespread service and have been in service for several decades... I have serious doubts the fault was with the sub.

India's half of defence budget in the last 5 odd years is now with western suppliers, and you still have a hardon?

Why??

Obviously western equipment is expensive.

You have been away for a bit, but if you think you can come back and be offensive to other members you might find yourself getting another break if you understand my drift.

Of course when 10 billion dollar programs turn into 18 billion dollar programs then of course India is going to be spending more on western equipment... the real question however is... is that money well spent, or is it just evidence of corruption and kickbacks and the Indian soldiers having to deal with the problems it creates.

BTW that article link you posted shows it is Russia that is reconsidering its trade with India because of a lack of transparency in the programs and contracts

They've got one, under testing.

None in service, and none that could explode during "battery charging" procedures...  

Garry it was rumoured to be that decrepit SSBN,

Perhaps you should not give so much credit to rumours, there is at least one thread on this forum discussing the issue where you will find immediately that it was a Kilo in question.

Your comments about it just being a dirty old Kilo make me rather less inclined to take the time to discuss things with you... continue or refrain... up to you.

Luckily, it turned out to be a dirty old kilo. Sounds like the Indians replaced the accumulators with locally made substandard ones, which burped far larger quantities of hydrogen. One of the night duty watchman must've been smoking.

Kaboom!.......Thats the incompetent version.

With the right mix of hydrogen and oxygen any spark will do... there is no need to blame night watchmen smoking.

Would hardly be the first time someone had problems after fitting cheap substandard parts to save a little money (which is often diverted into certain bank accounts). By definition cheap parts can't be made to standard and will almost certainly cause problems.

More than likely however the explosion was in the forward weapons compartment. It set off a missile, which plopped out and went off damaging another warship parked next to it.

Now these Indians wouldn't let the Russian investigators near the sunken boat.

Well for someone who seems to like unsubstantiated rumour... how about this... the Indians were tinkering with an anti ship missile in the middle of the night and its propellent exploded and that is why they don't want Russian investigators near the boat... they were trying to load a modified version... perhaps with longer range and a mistake was made...