PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

Could this be true?

Russia's 2014 Arms Exports Surpass $2Bln

Fomin said that Russia would float a joint venture with Brazil to co-produce Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter jets. Experts consider the plane comparable to the American F-22 Raptor.

Here it is .... yup Brasil was offered joint development and production

Russia offers Brazil together to build a fifth generation fighter

According to him, the talks in Brazil this time Russia is ready to discuss the possibility of establishing a joint venture.

Viktor wrote:Could this be true?

Russia's 2014 Arms Exports Surpass $2Bln

Fomin said that Russia would float a joint venture with Brazil to co-produce Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter jets. Experts consider the plane comparable to the American F-22 Raptor.

Here it is .... yup Brasil was offered joint development and production

Russia offers Brazil together to build a fifth generation fighter

According to him, the talks in Brazil this time Russia is ready to discuss the possibility of establishing a joint venture.

They offered them Su-35s years ago, but Brazilians chose SAAB Gripens instead. Lets see whether they enter this JV to manufacture T-50 in Brazil!

Frankly this is the best deal Russia can offer to Brazil ATM. Now the ball is in their court. If they are smart, they should lap this offer ASAP.

T-50 most certainly would be "F-22 killer", and shift the power balance of the entire (South)American continent

Indian Flanker wrote:

Viktor wrote:Could this be true?

Russia's 2014 Arms Exports Surpass $2Bln

Fomin said that Russia would float a joint venture with Brazil to co-produce Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter jets. Experts consider the plane comparable to the American F-22 Raptor.

Here it is .... yup Brasil was offered joint development and production

Russia offers Brazil together to build a fifth generation fighter

According to him, the talks in Brazil this time Russia is ready to discuss the possibility of establishing a joint venture.

They offered them Su-35s years ago, but Brazilians chose SAAB Gripens instead. Lets see whether they enter this JV to manufacture T-50 in Brazil!

Frankly this is the best deal Russia can offer to Brazil ATM. Now the ball is in their court. If they are smart, they should lap this offer ASAP.

T-50 most certainly would be "F-22 killer", and shift the power balance of the entire (South)American continent

There would be a greater chance of Brazil joining if they were given offer to FGFA participation rather than PAK FA (so would this end up being another fgfa like project but just Russia and Brazil?). At least they can offer support of any kind like funding.

Viktor wrote:Could this be true?

Russia's 2014 Arms Exports Surpass $2Bln

Fomin said that Russia would float a joint venture with Brazil to co-produce Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter jets. Experts consider the plane comparable to the American F-22 Raptor.

Here it is .... yup Brasil was offered joint development and production

Russia offers Brazil together to build a fifth generation fighter

According to him, the talks in Brazil this time Russia is ready to discuss the possibility of establishing a joint venture.

Yep, from that RIA Novosti article:

RIA News wrote:Fomin said that Russia would float a joint venture with Brazil to co-produce Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter jets. Experts consider the plane comparable to the American F-22 Raptor.

If this goes through, beers are on me!
(and I mean it!!!)

 

brazil will pick the F-35..

They always pick Europeans products over Russian. FUll corruption is the only reason they will pick the Saab Gripen over the Su-35.

sepheronx wrote:There would be a greater chance of Brazil joining if they were given offer to FGFA participation rather than PAK FA (so would this end up being another fgfa like project but just Russia and Brazil?). At least they can offer support of any kind like funding.

PAK-FA customized for export country's requirements =FGFA.

And I don't think they will sell this product to anyone without the Type-30 engine(which is expected to be ready by 2020).

Garry,

How critical do you think the DAS system of F-35 is going to be in:

a) WVR dogfight(say with T-50),

b) CAS/SEAD/DEAD mission(s)?

How critical do you think the DAS system of F-35 is going to be in:

a) WVR dogfight(say with T-50),

b) CAS/SEAD/DEAD mission(s)?

Modern ECM and ESM systems will make missiles much less effective... that works both ways of course, which is serious for the F-35 which doesn't carry that many weapons in the first place.

I would suggest a dogfight between the F-35 and T-50 would come down to guns and I think the t-50 would win because of that.

the Combination of DAS and moderate stealth will make the F-35 very capable in DEAD and SEAD, but for CAS you need to operate over the front line which means all sorts of small arms fire and a future of laser beam riding 57mm cannon shells that might be able to reach up and touch... surprise!   

Indian Flanker wrote:Garry,

How critical do you think the DAS system of F-35 is going to be in:

a) WVR dogfight(say with T-50),

b) CAS/SEAD/DEAD mission(s)?

For SEAD/DEAD missions DAS itself will not help much more than MAWS sensors on Su-35 or Ka-52 or in any other plane. For bigger SAM complexes RWR and ESM is a key component. It is far easier to hide and mask GBAD on the ground than a plane in the air. DAS will most probably only alert on missile launch or gun fire. Being in range of gun fire it means it is too late for anything. Missiles could be jammed, but not radio or laser guided in optical mode. I don't know, if F-35 will be equipped with HARMs, so it will mostly depend on bombs in SEAD/DEAD missions, which could be shot down.

In dogfight with Su-35, DAS will not bring any advantage as Su-35 also use 6 MAWS sensors to cover a whole sphere around plane, so no surprises from F-35. In dogfight it will be decided with agility of fighters and Su-35 have far better agility than F-35, because in those short ranges stealth will not help. Also Su-35 have better chances to outmaneuver IR AAMs than F-35. PAK-FA will have DIRCM too, so it will be even harder nut.

GarryB wrote:

How critical do you think the DAS system of F-35 is going to be in:

a) WVR dogfight(say with T-50),

b) CAS/SEAD/DEAD mission(s)?

Modern ECM and ESM systems will make missiles much less effective... that works both ways of course, which is serious for the F-35 which doesn't carry that many weapons in the first place.

I would suggest a dogfight between the F-35 and T-50 would come down to guns and I think the t-50 would win because of that.

the Combination of DAS and moderate stealth will make the F-35 very capable in DEAD and SEAD, but for CAS you need to operate over the front line which means all sorts of small arms fire and a future of laser beam riding 57mm cannon shells that might be able to reach up and touch... surprise!   

Do you think our T-50 is going to be as good or better than F-35 in SEAD/DEAD role(s)? Of course when it comes to air superiority it will be the best.

Indian Flanker wrote:

GarryB wrote:

How critical do you think the DAS system of F-35 is going to be in:

a) WVR dogfight(say with T-50),

b) CAS/SEAD/DEAD mission(s)?

Modern ECM and ESM systems will make missiles much less effective... that works both ways of course, which is serious for the F-35 which doesn't carry that many weapons in the first place.

I would suggest a dogfight between the F-35 and T-50 would come down to guns and I think the t-50 would win because of that.

the Combination of DAS and moderate stealth will make the F-35 very capable in DEAD and SEAD, but for CAS you need to operate over the front line which means all sorts of small arms fire and a future of laser beam riding 57mm cannon shells that might be able to reach up and touch... surprise!   

Do you think our T-50 is going to be as good or better than F-35 in SEAD/DEAD role(s)? Of course when it comes to air superiority it will be the best.

It's safe to assume it will. Why you may ask? Well because the T-50 SEAD/DEAD operations will be designed to encounter far more capable SAM's in the Russian military, compared to the underwhelming performing Patriot SAM system in the NATO military. There's the famous case of Slovakian old downgraded export models of S-300's being used in NATO SEAD/DEAD exercises and drills, the Slovakian S-300 model was not designed with any particular ECM survivability and yet in a high jamming operationally favorable ECM environment, NATO air-forces failed to even hinder the old downgraded export model of S-300 even in the slightest! That high ECM survivability is one of the reasons why the planned attack on Syria by the "NATO coalition of the STRONG!!!1!" collapsed in to a blubbering pile of shame at Obama's feet at the mere mention of S-300's being sold to Syria, even Israel's very own Nit-Wit-Yahoo begged Putin not to sell them lol!

Russia was the first country to employ ECM tactics in a major conflict (Russo-Japanese War) so it's no surprise that the Russian military has a distinct head start over military's of any other country in the world in ECM tactics.

Do you think our T-50 is going to be as good or better than F-35 in SEAD/DEAD role(s)? Of course when it comes to air superiority it will be the best.

Like the F-35, the T-50 is designed from the outset to be multirole and carry a range of SEAD and DEAD weapons like late model AS-11 etc.

Also Su-35 have better chances to outmaneuver IR AAMs than F-35. PAK-FA will have DIRCM too, so it will be even harder nut.

I would suspect the Su-35 and Mig-35 will both have President -S DIRCMs... especially when the attack helos will have it too...

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Indian Flanker wrote:

GarryB wrote:

How critical do you think the DAS system of F-35 is going to be in:

a) WVR dogfight(say with T-50),

b) CAS/SEAD/DEAD mission(s)?

Modern ECM and ESM systems will make missiles much less effective... that works both ways of course, which is serious for the F-35 which doesn't carry that many weapons in the first place.

I would suggest a dogfight between the F-35 and T-50 would come down to guns and I think the t-50 would win because of that.

the Combination of DAS and moderate stealth will make the F-35 very capable in DEAD and SEAD, but for CAS you need to operate over the front line which means all sorts of small arms fire and a future of laser beam riding 57mm cannon shells that might be able to reach up and touch... surprise!

Do you think our T-50 is going to be as good or better than F-35 in SEAD/DEAD role(s)? Of course when it comes to air superiority it will be the best.

It's safe to assume it will. Why you may ask? Well because the T-50 SEAD/DEAD operations will be designed to encounter far more capable SAM's in the Russian military, compared to the underwhelming performing Patriot SAM system in the NATO military. There's the famous case of Slovakian old downgraded export models of S-300's being used in NATO SEAD/DEAD exercises and drills, the Slovakian S-300 model was not designed with any particular ECM survivability and yet in a high jamming operationally favorable ECM environment, NATO air-forces failed to even hinder the old downgraded export model of S-300 even in the slightest! That high ECM survivability is one of the reasons why the planned attack on Syria by the "NATO coalition of the STRONG!!!1!" collapsed in to a blubbering pile of shame at Obama's feet at the mere mention of S-300's being sold to Syria, even Israel's very own Nit-Wit-Yahoo begged Putin not to sell them lol!

Russia was the first country to employ ECM tactics in a major conflict (Russo-Japanese War) so it's no surprise that the Russian military has a distinct head start over military's of any other country in the world in ECM tactics.

Thanks for the detailed answer

Which means T-50 on the one hand will be better than F-22 in air superiority role, on the other hand it will outperform F-35 in SEAD/DEAD operations.

Looks like T-50 is going to be one medicine for all diseases, lol. Hats off to the Russian engineers for designing this masterpiece.

Like the F-35, the T-50 is designed from the outset to be multirole and carry a range of SEAD and DEAD weapons like late model AS-11 etc.

OK! But can it outperform a dedicated fighter-bomber like Su-34 Hellduck in SEAD/DEAD role? Or am I expecting too much from it?

[quote="Indian Flanker"
OK! But can it outperform a dedicated fighter-bomber like Su-34 Hellduck in SEAD/DEAD role? Or am I expecting too much from it?
[/quote]
ofc. not- Su-34 is specifically made for ground and pound- it has the ECM equipment plus it can carry a lot more missiles/bombs than Pak-Fa can.

Indian Flanker wrote:

Like the F-35, the T-50 is designed from the outset to be multirole and carry a range of SEAD and DEAD weapons like late model AS-11 etc.

OK! But can it outperform a dedicated fighter-bomber like Su-34 Hellduck in SEAD/DEAD role? Or am I expecting too much from it?

Not likely, no other fighter plane in the world can out perform the Su-34 in the ground attack role except may'be later modernized versions of the Su-34. The Su-34 is the best compromise between stealth and ground attack, everything the F-35 should have been. The Su-34 is designed to fly low and fast under radars with built in TERCOM like modern cruise missiles, and just like modern cruise missiles the Su-34 went through a serious RAM, RCS reduction treatment and on Radars will most likely resemble a basketball flying fast and that's not even including ECM. Lets not forget it (Su-34) has the worlds most powerful ECM suite (Quite possibly designed to handle export models of Russian SAM's) of any fighter jet in mass production today! Like I mentioned in a previous post, designing a full stealthy ground attack plane (F-35) is a contradiction of design principles. Ground attack planes need a lot of pylon hard-points (the Su-25 has 11 hard-points) to be considered effective in ground attack as well as an armored cockpit (which the Su-34 has), but full stealthy fighters cant have hard-points if the fighter jet wants to maintain low-observable status. The Pak-Fa Holding 2-4 anti-radiation missiles internally for SEAD/DEAD simply wont cut it, 8-12 anti-radiation missiles on Su-34 hardpoints for SEAD/DEAD is much better.

Indian Flanker wrote:

Like the F-35, the T-50 is designed from the outset to be multirole and carry a range of SEAD and DEAD weapons like late model AS-11 etc.

OK! But can it outperform a dedicated fighter-bomber like Su-34 Hellduck in SEAD/DEAD role? Or am I expecting too much from it?

I don't think so. Su-34 have additional power generator for more powerful ECM equipment. Also Su-34 could carry more anti-radar missiles and cruise missiles than T-50 and escort jamming ECM pods. Both together are awesome combination, where Su-34 deal with GBAD and other ground targets, while T-50 provide excellent air protection.

The PAK FA is limited by its internal carriage of weapons so it is certainly no replacement for a Su-34, but it could be used together with Su-34s to breach particularly heavy defences and map out defence nodes for attention.

Su-34 is a strike aircraft that could be used in the interception role with some air to air capability, while the PAK FA is pretty much the opposite with an ability to take out ground based targets including air defences, but its main capabilities are taking on and defeating the best air power of the enemy before it can do too much damage.

In other words it could operate in a strike role but you have Su-34s and Tu-22M3Ms for that... if there is a very tough air defence network then send PAK FAs to weaken it and make it light up all its systems to try to defend itself and use that information to map all the defences and send in cruise missiles and then Su-34s to destroy what you detected before it moves... or the PAK FA can destroy the very mobile stuff before it moves.

GarryB wrote:The PAK FA is limited by its internal carriage of weapons so it is certainly no replacement for a Su-34, but it could be used together with Su-34s to breach particularly heavy defences and map out defence nodes for attention.

Su-34 is a strike aircraft that could be used in the interception role with some air to air capability, while the PAK FA is pretty much the opposite with an ability to take out ground based targets including air defences, but its main capabilities are taking on and defeating the best air power of the enemy before it can do too much damage.

In other words it could operate in a strike role but you have Su-34s and Tu-22M3Ms for that... if there is a very tough air defence network then send PAK FAs to weaken it and make it light up all its systems to try to defend itself and use that information to map all the defences and send in cruise missiles and then Su-34s to destroy what you detected before it moves... or the PAK FA can destroy the very mobile stuff before it moves.

My question was more from the Indian perspective. We don't have any dedicated fighter-bombers. Infact one of the reasons IAF is going for Rafale is its touted A2G striking ability, along with LO design and SPECTRA EW suite(which increases its survivability).

So, since we don't have Su-34 or Tu-22M3M, PAK-FA/FGFA would be our main primary aircraft to play the SEAD/DEAD/ other complex missions.


Looks like GOI should order few units of Su-34 Fullback

Indian Flanker wrote:

GarryB wrote:The PAK FA is limited by its internal carriage of weapons so it is certainly no replacement for a Su-34, but it could be used together with Su-34s to breach particularly heavy defences and map out defence nodes for attention.

Su-34 is a strike aircraft that could be used in the interception role with some air to air capability, while the PAK FA is pretty much the opposite with an ability to take out ground based targets including air defences, but its main capabilities are taking on and defeating the best air power of the enemy before it can do too much damage.

In other words it could operate in a strike role but you have Su-34s and Tu-22M3Ms for that... if there is a very tough air defence network then send PAK FAs to weaken it and make it light up all its systems to try to defend itself and use that information to map all the defences and send in cruise missiles and then Su-34s to destroy what you detected before it moves... or the PAK FA can destroy the very mobile stuff before it moves.

My question was more from the Indian perspective. We don't have any dedicated fighter-bombers. Infact one of the reasons IAF is going for Rafale is its touted A2G striking ability, along with LO design and SPECTRA EW suite(which increases its survivability).

So, since we don't have Su-34 or Tu-22M3M, PAK-FA/FGFA would be our main primary aircraft to play the SEAD/DEAD/ other complex missions.


Looks like GOI should order few units of Su-34 Fullback

You have Su-30MKI for that job too. I don't know, how good is its self defense EW equipment as it is french and israeli, not russian.

medo wrote:

Indian Flanker wrote:

GarryB wrote:The PAK FA is limited by its internal carriage of weapons so it is certainly no replacement for a Su-34, but it could be used together with Su-34s to breach particularly heavy defences and map out defence nodes for attention.

Su-34 is a strike aircraft that could be used in the interception role with some air to air capability, while the PAK FA is pretty much the opposite with an ability to take out ground based targets including air defences, but its main capabilities are taking on and defeating the best air power of the enemy before it can do too much damage.

In other words it could operate in a strike role but you have Su-34s and Tu-22M3Ms for that... if there is a very tough air defence network then send PAK FAs to weaken it and make it light up all its systems to try to defend itself and use that information to map all the defences and send in cruise missiles and then Su-34s to destroy what you detected before it moves... or the PAK FA can destroy the very mobile stuff before it moves.

My question was more from the Indian perspective. We don't have any dedicated fighter-bombers. Infact one of the reasons IAF is going for Rafale is its touted A2G striking ability, along with LO design and SPECTRA EW suite(which increases its survivability).

So, since we don't have Su-34 or Tu-22M3M, PAK-FA/FGFA would be our main primary aircraft to play the SEAD/DEAD/ other complex missions.


Looks like GOI should order few units of Su-34 Fullback

You have Su-30MKI for that job too. I don't know, how good is its self defense EW equipment as it is french and israeli, not russian.

Yes, but for deep penetration inside enemy defence, LO/VLO/Stealth is required. And that's the drawback of Su-30MKI.

Even Sukhoi has worked on RCS of Su-34, and according to them it is like that of a cruise missile.

Indian Flanker wrote:Infact one of the reasons IAF is going for Rafale is its touted A2G striking ability, along with LO design and SPECTRA EW suite(which increases its survivability).

If that's the case than IAF should definitely invest in Su-34 over the Rafale, you could literally buy 3 Su-34's for every Rafale...I know IAF wanted a medium size jet fighter and a diversified supplier, but the benefits of a Su-34 out-weighs those of the Rafale, such as commonality of parts between Sukhoi fighters (which will save money on parts and spares), the cheaper cost of buying, maintaining, and repairing aircraft, the powerful ECM suite, the heavy bomb/missile truck payload capacity.

????

The only dedicated strike aircraft that is stealthy is the F-117 and it carries two laser guided bombs...

The FFGA could do that and likely also carry 4 AAMs at least to deal with any aircraft launched.

The only other stealth aircraft with a deep strike role is the B-2.

the point is that any deep strike mission so urgent there is no time to degrade the enemy air defences first is likely a decapitation attack... an attempt to kill the leader or leadership of the enemy country... and a ballistic missile could be a better substitute for that.

It would be more use to India to use lots of non stealthy strike aircraft like Rafale and like Su-30MKI and indeed also FFGA and Tejas to overwhelm the enemy and defeat their air power as quickly as possible.

No point in going in half assed about it...

Lots of cruise missiles and attack aircraft armed to defend themselves to take out enemy air fields and HQs and communications centres etc etc.


America finds the B-2 useful because even they don't know who they will need to bomb... India can be pretty sure it will be a neighbour they have to deal with... in which case the Flanker and Flankerski and even the Rafale would be useful... though the longer range of the Russian based aircraft mean fewer inflight refuelling tankers in vulnerable near border areas...

Indian policy is "no first strike" in case of Ballistic Missiles.


And Garry, you didn't mention F-35?

With its touted EOTS/DAS it is going to be a perfect stealth strike aircraft.(F-117 is already dead after the induction of F-22)

PS: Dassault wanted the current government to sign the guaranty paper about the MRCA deal, but apparently the GOI has dis-approved their demand.

So, who knows Mr. Ajay Shukla's wet dream may come true and India may cancel Rafale and buy F-35s instead!



As far as Su-34 is concerned, well, I'm a great fan of this fighter-bomber. But don't think IAF would want to buy another heavy class fighter since they already have the MKI and would receive FGFA's in next 6/7 years!

So, I think it's F-35 vs Rafale now for IAF to decide. I would love if somehow Mig-35 can claw into this competition. But as I said IAF basically is looking for a medium range striker, and both these other planes have much bigger claim to that than Mig-35.

Indian Flanker wrote:
So, who knows Mr. Ajay Shukla's wet dream may come true and India may cancel Rafale and buy F-35s instead!

If india is stupid enough to cripple its Air Force useless beyond the inferior capability of Pakistans incompetent Air Force than let them buy this PR horse.